Smuggler Archive
Thread: Balancing the ranged classes with hybrids
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Malcolm_CaKre
Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:01 am
#1
Hey all,
I'm not entirely sure where this needs to go, because it touches on virtually every combat prof there is. I'm putting it here, because this is the forum where the Pistol correspondent posted some thoughts about balancing professions for hybrids, a month or so ago. (Wes, if you think this has merit, please feel free to pass this along, or let me know where to repost it.)
The core of the issue was, that Riflemen currently have to be more powerful than Pistoleers or Carbineers, because there are no Rifleman hybrids. If they weren't, then Rifle would be useless, because everybody would be hybrid'ed with one of the other two. This makes people who want to be pure Pistoleers or Carbineers weak for the amount of points they've invested.
Currently, the "easy" hybrids are:
Pistoleer: Smuggler and Bounty Hunter (and Commando, somewhat)
Carbineer: Bounty Hunter
Teras Kasi: Smuggler and Commando
Rifleman, Fencer, Pikeman, Heavy Swordsman: none
Here's what I suggest, so that the various professions can be individually balanced against each other, and also allow the hybrids to invest more points to improve their performance:
* Bounty Hunters are the masters of all ranged combat with smallarms. Either the LLC becomes a rifle (and points values are adjusted accordingly) or the LLC tree adds some specials and bonuses for Rifle. That makes all three ranged profs equal in their ability to hybridize with BH. When you see an MBH, you should figure that he's probably got a specialty weapon, that he's frightfully good with.
* Smugglers are masters of flexibility. Change the prereqs for Smuggler, so that it requires one line in any melee and one line in any ranged weapon. Adjust the specials so that they work with all ranged weapons, and add melee specials for al melee types. Smugglers shouldn't be able to match the accuracy, speed, or raw damage of BH, but should have something like /lastDitch, and some ways to cause delays or states so that they can get away from a fight. When you see a Smuggler, you shouldn't know what to expect -- he may have any combination of melee and ranged, and he's likely to surprise you with his combination of skills.
* Commandos are masters of heavy weapons. Keep them the same, but as their physical training regimen, change their unarmed prerequisite to be any melee line. Give Commandos a bit of extra toughness, too. With any melee line, you can (after the intended changes in the CURB) have Commandos that can either meditate, or have great basic defense, or great state defense, or just have a big ol' hammer in their pocket.
* (optional) increase the bonuses in Brawler, so that Brawlers become the melee version of BH's... hyper competent in their specialty, with easy hybrid options for those who want to invest the points.
With all that done, all of the single-weapon combat professions can be balanced against each other, so they're all in harmony with the points invested. Anybody who wants to expand upon any of the weapon-professions by hybriding can do so, and those hybrids will be fairly well balanced for the points invested as well.
That's my suggestion. I think it would be pretty simple to pull off (considering the changes to BH prereqs a while ago). And except for the couple of lines that require new specials, most of the work would be in making the numbers and advantages/disadvantages of the individual weapon profs balance against each other.
Questions/comments/banktips/rotten tomatoes?
mal
LowbaTherf
Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:13 am
#2
but....what about rifleman/ranger? or any combat skill/ranger? You don't technically need it, but I'd like to see how far a noncombat ranger would go. 
Rissen
Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:56 am
#4
i have made this suggestion before so I definately support variable pre-reqs.
However as for lowering rifleman or upping the other ranged classes I think they were trying to accomplish the idea of rifleman being a sniper with long range, high power, and high piercing.
I think the answer for that would be to make a pass on range giving riflemen something akin to 100m and carbine more of a 50m and pistol 25m or maybe 32m. Also reduce riflemans damage some but make their bleeds far more substantial than a pistol or carbine bleed and allow them to bleed any poolper the sniper portion and the idea of a called shot.
Pistol should get more stopping and takedown shots and carbine should be the cone and area king and get more rapid fire options.
this would create a role for each class and a place in a formation for them as well.
Back to the variable pre-req though it is a solid idea and allows for a more personalized character and also reduces the penalty on some of the hybrids like squad leader which has a high cost for being such a support class.
SPACE, GCW, PvP, PvE, DWB runs 
cpz
Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:33 am
#5
I think the question is what are the relationships betweenMaster Pistoleers, Smugglers and BHs.
And it is pretty simple, really. A Smuggler has addional defensive skills and mods; a BH additional attack skills and mods.
Therefore a Master Pistoleer with Smuggler is defensively minded, with BH, they're offensively minded. With both, they're the most effective pistol user in the game. Where it's borked at the moment is tht Master Pistols is not a good enough base to build on - it's far too defensive. The only reason for having Master Pistoleer is the state defence and Ranged Mitigation. Perhaps these should be Smuggler bonuses (lose Mit altogether, supplement with Ranged Def), while LowBlow perhaps should be a Pistoleer shot. Perhaps LastDitch needs to be a BH shot, with EyeShot coming across into Pistoleer. And give Smuggler MeleeDef2 (if it worked,,,) to replace LowBlow, leave PanicShot with us and give us an additional ranged defensive skill, perhaps a blinding or intimidating shot. Then get the rest of the Pistoleer specials working, even out the speed and accuracy discrepancy between BH and Pistoleer, give Smuggler some accuracy and hey presto.
And seeing as the rumour is that Smuggler will no longer be limited to Pistols, you can expand the question to how do Smugglers and BHs relate to master weapon specialities.
I'd also remove our Unarmed requirement if the game is going ranged. I'd replace it Artisan 4---- as slicing is such a major part of the profession that Engineering lends itself to Smuggling more than karate does
maxtheusher
Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:55 am
#6
I don't want any of those things as a commando. I 'm a ranged kind of guy. I want to launch my rocket at large, then run and gun w/ my Lag gun and grenades.Hybrids were never really meant for templates. They're supposed to be their own template, which is why they have such high pre-reqs.Commandos originally crafted their own consumable ordnance. Smugglers originally were designed to smuggle in addition to fight. BH's are meant to be adept w/ all forms of ranged weapons. etc. and so forth and whatnot. Self sufficiency is the name of the game w/ hybrids. they shouldn't be treated as also-rans to the big strong "elite" profs.
lurdanta
Tue Feb 15, 2005 11:20 am
#7
Take Low Blow and Last Ditch away from Smuggler?
That doesn't make sense.
I can't think of two specials that are more Smuggler in nature. Smugglers are supposed to be the criminals in the game, who else should have Low Blow? I realize your approaching it from a purely combat point of view, but I think there are other considerations such a character spirit (for lack of a better word). Low Blow and Last Ditch speak deeply of what I feel is the essence of being a Smuggler. We fight dirty (remember the skill tree is called Dirty Fighting) and are frequently outnumbered and facing a no-win situation, so Last Ditch should be a smuggler special. If you take those specials ways, I think you would be gutting the core spirit of smuggler themed combat.
That doesn't make sense.
I can't think of two specials that are more Smuggler in nature. Smugglers are supposed to be the criminals in the game, who else should have Low Blow? I realize your approaching it from a purely combat point of view, but I think there are other considerations such a character spirit (for lack of a better word). Low Blow and Last Ditch speak deeply of what I feel is the essence of being a Smuggler. We fight dirty (remember the skill tree is called Dirty Fighting) and are frequently outnumbered and facing a no-win situation, so Last Ditch should be a smuggler special. If you take those specials ways, I think you would be gutting the core spirit of smuggler themed combat.
cpz
Tue Feb 15, 2005 11:44 am
#8
lurdanta wrote:
Take Low Blow and Last Ditch away from Smuggler?
That doesn't make sense.
I can't think of two specials that are more Smuggler in nature. Smugglers are supposed to be the criminals in the game, who else should have Low Blow? I realize your approaching it from a purely combat point of view, but I think there are other considerations such a character spirit (for lack of a better word). Low Blow and Last Ditch speak deeply of what I feel is the essence of being a Smuggler. We fight dirty (remember the skill tree is called Dirty Fighting) and are frequently outnumbered and facing a no-win situation, so Last Ditch should be a smuggler special. If you take those specials ways, I think you would be gutting the core spirit of smuggler themed combat.
Yeah, I see what you mean, but in real terms, LastDitch is the most powerful pistol shot out there, and that's not right, in my eyes. Perhaps they could just bolster up the StoppingShot damage output, or make StoppingShot HAM specific, but it seems to me that I don't ever sue LastDitch asa last ditch...I use it to inflict 5k/sec damage to someone with my de-10 as I'm speed capped. Hmm, so, yeah, perhaps the thought behing my suggestion is actually a reaction to other issues in the game like speed capping and buffs negating special costs, which I guess we'll see ironed out in the CU.
If the devs actually read threads I might be tempted to edit that suggestion out.
cpz
Tue Feb 15, 2005 11:46 am
#9
Btu I would say that I feel sad, or at least a little guilty, that the best pistol shots, ie the ranged KD, the most damaging, the mind pool specific and the delay shot all lile outside Pistoleer.
And that does suck.
cpz
Tue Feb 15, 2005 4:09 pm
#10
cpz wrote:
Btu I would say that I feel sad, or at least a little guilty, that the best pistol shots, ie the ranged KD, the most damaging, the mind pool specific and the delay shot all lile outside Pistoleer.
And that does suck.
Fair enough I get one starred, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong...
Malcolm_CaKre
Wed Feb 16, 2005 6:59 am
#11
lurdanta wrote:
Take Low Blow and Last Ditch away from Smuggler?
That doesn't make sense.
I can't think of two specials that are more Smuggler in nature. Smugglers are supposed to be the criminals in the game, who else should have Low Blow? I realize your approaching it from a purely combat point of view, but I think there are other considerations such a character spirit (for lack of a better word). Low Blow and Last Ditch speak deeply of what I feel is the essence of being a Smuggler. We fight dirty (remember the skill tree is called Dirty Fighting) and are frequently outnumbered and facing a no-win situation, so Last Ditch should be a smuggler special. If you take those specials ways, I think you would be gutting the core spirit of smuggler themed combat.
I wouldn't dream of taking those two away from Smuggler... In fact, if the prereqs change, then they should work with any prerequisite weapon, or at least have equivalent alternatives. If you can shoot somebody in the crotch with a pistol, surely you could with a rifle too? Heck, a gaffi in the groin would be Dirty Fighting too.
Smuggler should definitely be able to dirty fight with any of it's armaments, and that should follow any changes to prerequisites.
They'd all have to be balanced, of course -- but the core of my idea is to change the prerequisites and then let the profession balance happen as it will happen.
mal
Mentski
Wed Feb 16, 2005 8:14 am
#12
Fromwhat i've gatheredabout the CURB, It sounds like you'll be balancing out ranged professions with OTHER ranged professions
Remember the post that said if you want to speed up your rifle skills post-CURB, you should invest sp in pistoleer?
WesBelden
Wed Feb 16, 2005 10:22 am
#13
Interesting post 
. I can say that in my mind balance issues are fixed in the CURB, at least from what I've seen on paper
. I can say that in my mind balance issues are fixed in the CURB, at least from what I've seen on paper
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