Smuggler Archive
Thread: A humble request for clarification from GM and/or Wes...no flames
Everyone (including me) seems to have voicedan opinion regarding the cost of the loot items, difficulty in obtaining them, etc. under the proposed Plan B. Upon reflection, I have one overriding concern about Plan B: As GM said both here and herethe loot is required to obtain a quality betterpast Slicer 2.
Essentially, without the rare high-end loot there is no difference between a Slicer 2 and a Master Smuggler. If the high-end loot simply augmented or enhanced my Master Smuggler skills, I would be a lot more accepting of the proposed Plan B. Instead, GMhas indicatedthat obtaining results above Slicing 2 will require the use of the high-end loot.
I personally think even without the high-end loota Master Smuggler should ALWAYS have the ability to slice better than a Slicer 2...or Slicer 4 for that matter...and that the high-end loot would be a way for a Master Smuggler to further improve his/herproduct. Skill should have at least as muchinfluence on the quality of a slice as the availability and use of a material. Here is my analogy:
Give arookie cook a top-choice sirloin and you might get a decent dinner, but give an experiencedchef a mediocre cut of meat and you willalmost always end up with a better meal. The skill of the chefinfluences the quality of the meal at least as much as the ingredients he uses. Under Plan B, the chefis givenno choice but to use the top-choice sirloin, otherwise he can do no better thanrookie cook...skill makes no difference.
GM, please tell me whether this interpretation of your posts is right or wrong.
I would generally agree that a Master Smuggler should be able to slice better than a level 2 slicer, but to be honest, without the parts, the slice should only be nominally better.
To put it in perspective, it would be like saying a super mechanic should be able to soup up a 4 cylindar engine with no added parts; he might be able to coax a few more extra horsepower out of it, but to REALLY soup it up, you need the equipment.
Likewise, I agree that a Master smuggler without partsshould NOT = a level 2 slicer, but at the same time, the increase should be small from level 2 to 3, to 4, and then to master, without parts.
Guamarhea wrote:Everyone (including me) seems to have voiced an opinion regarding the cost of the loot items, difficulty in obtaining them, etc. under the proposed Plan B. Upon reflection, I have one overriding concern about Plan B: As GM said both here and here the loot is required to obtain a quality better past Slicer 2.
Essentially, without the rare high-end loot there is no difference between a Slicer 2 and a Master Smuggler. If the high-end loot simply augmented or enhanced my Master Smuggler skills, I would be a lot more accepting of the proposed Plan B. Instead, GM has indicated that obtaining results above Slicing 2 will require the use of the high-end loot.
I personally think even without the high-end loot a Master Smuggler should ALWAYS have the ability to slice better than a Slicer 2...or Slicer 4 for that matter...and that the high-end loot would be a way for a Master Smuggler to further improve his/her product. Skill should have at least as much influence on the quality of a slice as the availability and use of a material. Here is my analogy:
Give a rookie cook a top-choice sirloin and you might get a decent dinner, but give an experienced chef a mediocre cut of meat and you will almost always end up with a better meal. The skill of the chef influences the quality of the meal at least as much as the ingredients he uses. Under Plan B, the chef is given no choice but to use the top-choice sirloin, otherwise he can do no better than rookie cook...skill makes no difference.
GM, please tell me whether this interpretation of your posts is right or wrong.
That's one of the best analogies I could imagine to describe the issue.
Thanks for putting it so well.
Correction...both of those analogies are great.
Message Edited by lurdanta on 06-24-2005 02:07 PM
i'd like to hear what GM has to say about us needing to use these components to perform the level 3 and 4 slices.
i sure hope that this wasn't the intent.
GanymedePharuu wrote:
great post. both analogies, the cook and the mechanic are great.
i'd like to hear what GM has to say about us needing to use these components to perform the level 3 and 4 slices.
i sure hope that this wasn't the intent.
Indeed - I think that the loot system would be awesome and open up a whole new market, so long as the loots were not required. Just as long as the slicing ability increases with every skill box, but nominally, and that you can increase it dramatically by getting a loot component; it would be like an enhancement for smugglers.
Ah, see, i thought you were advocating the system "as is" in the other thread. incidently, I do not want to be "uber" for free. I simply worry that the top end slices won't be worth the work requierd to get the loot components.
on a side note, it seems more, as I said, a "work vs reward" system as opposed to a risk vs. reward system, that is part of what bothers me.
ZionHalcyon wrote:
I would generally agree that a Master Smuggler should be able to slice better than a level 2 slicer, but to be honest, without the parts, the slice should only be nominally better.
To put it in perspective, it would be like saying a super mechanic should be able to soup up a 4 cylindar engine with no added parts; he might be able to coax a few more extra horsepower out of it, but to REALLY soup it up, you need the equipment.
Likewise, I agree that a Master smuggler without partsshould NOT = a level 2 slicer, but at the same time, the increase should be small from level 2 to 3, to 4, and then to master, without parts.
Nominally better is still better, and I would be much more accepting of Plan B if it were implemented that way.
To continue with your mechanic analogy, there used to be a lot of moon-shiners in the US who relied on their own skills to soup up cars. Their skill alone allowed them to fabricate parts and tweak engines. These guys gave most decent mechanics a run for their money with little more than a sharp mind and and some muscle. Granted a good mechanic with the best tools, parts, and a fully stocked shop could probably do better, but imagine what would happen if the moon-shiner had the same advantages?
To me, the high-end loot should be like giving that moon-shiner access to the better tools and parts at the fully stocked shop.Thetools, parts, and shop make him even better (Master Smuggler with high-end loot)...but without them he was stillthe best (Master Smuggler without loot) around when it came tosouping up cars (Slicing).
Again, this is the part that really concerns me the most about Plan B...seems like everything else (cost, rarity, difficulty, etc.) can be worked around in some manner or another.
Message Edited by Guamarhea on 06-24-2005 03:53 PM
That's the real bonus of being a master. You can do more with a single item than anyone else can.
TheWok wrote:
If the only changes made to the slicing system were those mentioned by GM, a master Smuggler will still be needed at some point, as masters will be the only ones that can take a gun up to 100% customization. Someone at Slicing 2 might be able to put in a level 2 damage slice, but that's it. If you go to a Master Smuggler, not only can they put on that level 2 damage slice, but they can also put on the level 2 speed slice, or the crit slice, etc... All the way up to 100% customization.
That's the real bonus of being a master. You can do more with a single item than anyone else can.
Thank you for saying this Wok... I posted this in another thread, but it was ignored.
Nowhere was anything stated that they were taking out customization. Only the actual breakage of a weapon.
With this system, not only will a Master Smuggler be the only one that can take a weapon / armor up to 100% customization, but they'll need to have the rare component to do it.
And then also your example with doing a level 2 speed slice AND a level 2 damage slice, bringing the weapon up to 100% customization, which would not be possible for someone at Slicing IV.
Instead of having Weapons, Armor, Improved Weapons, there are two new skills: "Slicing: Weapons" and "Slicing: Armor." The progression is as such:
Novice: both +5
Slicing 1: both +10
Slicing 2: both +15
Slicing 3: both +20
Slicing 4: both +25
Master: both +25
For a total of 100 at Master. This lines up with Masters being able to take a weapon or piece of armor up to 100% customization. So, if that's the case, max customization percentages are:
Novice: 5%
Slicing 1: 15%
Slicing 2: 30%
Slicing 3: 50%
Slicing 4: 75%
Master: 100%
So, a Slicer that is not a Master, just might be able to put on these really high-end slices, depending on how the percentages play out when GM's finished with them. However, if anyone wants over 75% customization, they MUST go to a Master Smuggler. That's not the amount of customization you can do at one time. That's the amount that you can go up to on one item. If a gun already has 75% customization, a person with only Slicing 4 can't do anything else to it. It'll have to go to a Master for further customization.
So, what does this mean? It means that, depending on how the customization ratings for the different slices come out, a person with Slicing 4 is probably just as good as a Master Smuggler. But the Master will be able to do more.