Smuggler Archive
Thread: Solution to smuggling and contraband...a smuggler reputation system
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Duckfat
Thu Jun 17, 2004 2:00 pm
#1
Well I put this in GMs original thead but it is so long and most of it is people bickering and I really wanted to know what people thought of these ideas so I made this seperate thread. Please let me know what you think about any one of these ideas. My main interest is thoughts on the reputation system instead of the contraband visibility system.
Legal Ranges & Punishment:
I disagree with the idea that you will be attacked for every infraction. There was mention that most people will not pay the fines and end up attacking anyway but how about not giving them a choice like when you slap an ST. You don't get a choice and are just fined. I think quasi-legal fines should be light and mandatory. Banned fines should be a bit heavier but offer the option to fight your way out. Highly Illegal should be the only one with auto attack. Also not sure what other things would be considered highly illegal but I think that only mission goods should be confiscated. Taking other items from players will not be well received and make scan locations ghost towns.
I disagree with the idea that you will be attacked for every infraction. There was mention that most people will not pay the fines and end up attacking anyway but how about not giving them a choice like when you slap an ST. You don't get a choice and are just fined. I think quasi-legal fines should be light and mandatory. Banned fines should be a bit heavier but offer the option to fight your way out. Highly Illegal should be the only one with auto attack. Also not sure what other things would be considered highly illegal but I think that only mission goods should be confiscated. Taking other items from players will not be well received and make scan locations ghost towns.
The part about losing faction is good but I was wondering if rebs lose reb faction or imp faction? It really doesn't make sense to lose reb faction for trying to smuggle through an imp checkpoint but it would be a worthless penalty to lose imp faction since most rebs already have -5k. Perhaps you could make it so that you lose reb faction only if you are arrested (incap/db) and not just for being scanned. The part about quasi-legal immunity for imps is fine with me as long as you raise the rank. It is reasonable for a high ranking officer like a captain or something to be immune to small offenses (quasi-legal only) but not a lowly corporal. What happens to a neutral player? Are you making it beneficial to be neutral by not having any type of faction penalty since you only mentioned factional players losing faction?
Scan Frequency:
Increasing the scan frequency IMHO is just more stress on the server. Also making static points for scans will just make those places less visited. Med centers are only used by tumblers and grinders as it is and placing them at any other building will just make people stop going there. The only place that is viable is the starport that people must go through. Like I said it should not be a single starport making that city a ghosttown but it should move from one starport to another like random checkpoints. Then people would have the choice of avoiding that starport for the time being and taking some backroads (shuttles to a different starport) or going through the scans.
Increasing the scan frequency IMHO is just more stress on the server. Also making static points for scans will just make those places less visited. Med centers are only used by tumblers and grinders as it is and placing them at any other building will just make people stop going there. The only place that is viable is the starport that people must go through. Like I said it should not be a single starport making that city a ghosttown but it should move from one starport to another like random checkpoints. Then people would have the choice of avoiding that starport for the time being and taking some backroads (shuttles to a different starport) or going through the scans.
Contraband Visibility:
I personally agree with Caylin in that just having these items should not put a player in a position where he may be subject to pvp without his consent. I understand the attempt by the devs to incorporate the bounties that were asked for but I think this is the wrong way to go about it. People argue that you have a choice in using spices and slices so by doing so you are giving your consent. The problem with this is that these things have been so much a part of gameplay already that a majority of the players will continue to use it and you will end up with just about everyone on the BH terms. I think the visibility thing should not be implemented and perhaps use a reputation system that I will talk about later for just smugglers and not your average joe with contraband. It seems a bit ridiculous for your average joe that uses spice or something to get a bounty put on his head.
I personally agree with Caylin in that just having these items should not put a player in a position where he may be subject to pvp without his consent. I understand the attempt by the devs to incorporate the bounties that were asked for but I think this is the wrong way to go about it. People argue that you have a choice in using spices and slices so by doing so you are giving your consent. The problem with this is that these things have been so much a part of gameplay already that a majority of the players will continue to use it and you will end up with just about everyone on the BH terms. I think the visibility thing should not be implemented and perhaps use a reputation system that I will talk about later for just smugglers and not your average joe with contraband. It seems a bit ridiculous for your average joe that uses spice or something to get a bounty put on his head.
I am also concerned about the possible investigation farming that may end up happening. There are a lot of things to think about here. Does your visibility reset if you are killed by a BH on a mission or do you stay on the terms forever? Staying on the terms forever would really suck but if you are removed then a smuggler can just slice all his jedi friends off the terms not caring if he gets put on the term if he will be removed after one death. After all one smuggler death only loses 22 FP instead of a bunch of your jedi friends losing lots of xp. Can a smuggler try to remove himself from the terms by slicing it? If so then he can get on the terms and just keep slicing til hes off.
Basic System:
Missions should be given out depending on two things. First the base level of the mission should be based on the level of underworld the smuggler has. Instead of pistol xp the underworld tree should be some form of smuggling xp that you get for completing missions and the scan avoidance skill set should be given within this tree.
Missions should be given out depending on two things. First the base level of the mission should be based on the level of underworld the smuggler has. Instead of pistol xp the underworld tree should be some form of smuggling xp that you get for completing missions and the scan avoidance skill set should be given within this tree.
Now I will talk about the second thing that the mission should be based on and what could get a smuggler on the BH terms, reputation (possibly implemented as the third Hutt faction). A smuggler could lose and gain this reputation in several ways. One way is through scans. If he goes through a checkpoint and avoids a scan he can gain reputation but if he is caught he loses reputation. The most important part of reputation is whether you try to cheat your employers. The only penalty mentioned for skimming from the cargo is visibility that may get you on the BH terms. But what is to stop a smuggler from just continuing to take missions and not deliver (in essence getting free spice components). Or from making the delivery and keeping the creds. So he may get killed by a BH every once in a while but he is getting tons of free stuff and making tons of creds so who cares right. However if your reputation was raised or lowered depending on how much you skimmed from your employers you could adjust the missions based on that reputation. The higher your rep the more you are trusted and the more cargo you are trusted with. The lower your rep the less you are trusted and the less cargo you are trusted with. If you keep taking the cargo eventually you will not be trusted and it will be very hard to make up your rep cuz you can only get it back a little at a time with very small missions. That and the fact that a low rep will get you on the BH terms.
Cargo Legality:
The main issue here for me is how to stop people from hiding things in droids. I think the best way would be to make the highly illegal cargo only placable in the inventory or bank and no other containers (similar to some other things like newb vouchers). I think it will be hard to stop all the contraband this way as people like to put sliced gear in bags for sale and storage but at least it will stop people from exploiting the system to do the missions.
The main issue here for me is how to stop people from hiding things in droids. I think the best way would be to make the highly illegal cargo only placable in the inventory or bank and no other containers (similar to some other things like newb vouchers). I think it will be hard to stop all the contraband this way as people like to put sliced gear in bags for sale and storage but at least it will stop people from exploiting the system to do the missions.
The idea about the encounters with authorities is good but the only way I see it happening with any real effect is in a sting. If they were to try to jump you while you were on route most people will just drive on and speed away on their vehicles. Instead you could have a sting where the authorities would spawn after you make the delivery but before you get paid. I think that would be pretty cool. You could stay and kill them to get your money or you could just run and pay the Hutts back out of your own pocket or just take the hit to your rep for not paying them.
The visible mission timer would be nice. Make it able to be toggled on or off for those that don't like to be pampered and call everyone else carebears.
Withholding Cargo:
Most of my issues here were about a penalty for taking the whole cargo and getting stuff for free but that has been covered earlier with the reputation thing.
Most of my issues here were about a penalty for taking the whole cargo and getting stuff for free but that has been covered earlier with the reputation thing.
The only other thing I wondered about was if it would be possible to fail in slicing the lock. There should be some sort of risk here. My solution would be to make these locks so that you can only use a FAN and not a clamp. My reasoning for this is that the Hutts know you are smugglers and know about clamps and I would assume they would make a lock that smugglers cant use a clamp on. This would add a 25% chance of failure and revive the currently dead FAN use. BTW failing would cost you reputation.
Cargo Contents:
I am okay with a smuggler needing to skim from the cargo but I have a request. Would it be possible to reduce the effect of skimming? Say I take a 10% cut but don't want them to know. A good smuggler would 'water down' the spice to make it look like the whole cargo was still there. Or when you make the payment you could fast talk to explain why there is less money than there should be.
I am okay with a smuggler needing to skim from the cargo but I have a request. Would it be possible to reduce the effect of skimming? Say I take a 10% cut but don't want them to know. A good smuggler would 'water down' the spice to make it look like the whole cargo was still there. Or when you make the payment you could fast talk to explain why there is less money than there should be.
Message Edited by Duckfat on 06-18-2004 12:13 PM
Duckfat
Fri Jun 18, 2004 2:15 pm
#2
Will anyone comment on this solution instead of just adding to the arguing about pvp vs pve in the other thread?
Ternque01
Fri Jun 18, 2004 2:54 pm
#3
Okay, the reason you haven't been getting alot of responses is that the vast majority of your post is either common sense or completely beyond the obvious.
On your reputation system... I like it, it makes it significantly harder to make it on the BH terminals this way. It also plays into continuity and common sense for a smuggler's reputation. Overall, I can just comment that at this time it is a great detail that can be added in.
Right now, it seems our focus should be on resolving this PvE/PvP issue instead.
It seems the majority of smugglers that I have seenat this point agree that non-smugglers should be subject to the contraband laws as they now stand. It is simple, effective, and because only a small amount of visibility is added by each infraction, a normal player should be able to easily control their visibility. This is not forced, sliced gear is extremely rare and illegal in any Star Wars book I've picked up, so it is not for the average citizen. If a player chooses to continually break the law and completely undertands the law's consequences for his/her actions, it is their choice to do so. I said choice there for a reason 
PvP bounties are easy to avoid, and this is dictated by the choices a player makes over and over and over again. Acting as if PvP is suddenly thrust upon them is not valid. It is the result of continual disobediance.
PvP bounties are easy to avoid, and this is dictated by the choices a player makes over and over and over again. Acting as if PvP is suddenly thrust upon them is not valid. It is the result of continual disobediance.The real problem is that PvE oriented smuggler need a way to level up smuggler without having to PvP. Considering that a smuggler visibility shoots up dramatically over his career - being a criminal - he/she will find themselves looking down a BH's barrel many times unless some structures are in place to allow a PvE smuggler to stick to PvE with incredible effectiveness.
Here are some solutions.
1.The first idea is the PvE/PvP "switch" which allow all players to ability to choose between a PC or NPC BH to kill them.
2.The second is the Low Risk Smuggler Mission, which allows PvE oriented smugglers to opportunity to gain equal smuggler XP while at the same time offering missions that result in less visibility gain if it is failed. A great way to implement this is to have all smuggler missions start the same. If the smuggler decides to "skim" from his suppliers then the mission posses a very large increase in visibility gain risk. If a smuggler decides to not "skim" the mission delivery, then a mission failure results in very little visibility gain because you can always explain to your boss that still have the reciept from the cloning tube you just popped out of. BTW because of the ease of avoiding visibility in this system, all BH's will be PC. There should be no excuse for "accidentally" getting a million visibility points.
3.The third idea is a Fine Option when visibility puts one on the terminals. PvE oriented people can choose to pay the fine. For people whowould rather duke it out, they can accept a PC bounty on their heads. If a player chooses to not compensate the state for their actions, a BH will be.
Duckfat
Sat Jun 19, 2004 2:43 pm
#4
First of all thnx for the reply.
Ternque01 wrote:
Okay, the reason you haven't been getting alot of responses is that the vast majority of your post is either common sense or completely beyond the obvious.
I agree that much of this would seem pretty obvious but it was not covered and I wanted to make sure they were addressed as they were not in GMs original post. It may seem obvious to us because that is what we are thinking in terms of what we want but if it is not voiced then the devs may not be sure of what we want. Hopefully more people will reply and also say that this is what we want to make it more obvious. I would also wish that people who do not agree that this is what we want to reply to see where part of the community do not agree.
On your reputation system... I like it, it makes it significantly harder to make it on the BH terminals this way. It also plays into continuity and common sense for a smuggler's reputation. Overall, I can just comment that at this time it is a great detail that can be added in.
Please elaborate. Maybe not on all the detail but any bit would help. This is the types of responses that I am looking for.
Right now, it seems our focus should be on resolving this PvE/PvP issue instead.
It seems the majority of smugglers that I have seenat this point agree that non-smugglers should be subject to the contraband laws as they now stand. It is simple, effective, and because only a small amount of visibility is added by each infraction, a normal player should be able to easily control their visibility. This is not forced, sliced gear is extremely rare and illegal in any Star Wars book I've picked up, so it is not for the average citizen. If a player chooses to continually break the law and completely undertands the law's consequences for his/her actions, it is their choice to do so. I said choice there for a reason
I am not to sure that a majority of smugglers feel that small offenses should add up to get a bounty put on you. Like I said I don't believe the law enforcers would normally put bounties on the average joe especially if he was neutral or imp. Sure the contraband was rare in the books but this is not the books and players want to use all the tools available without having to be forced into pvp. That is why I believe the average joe user should not be put on the terms but a penalty of creds or faction would be enough.
The real problem is that PvE oriented smuggler need a way to level up smuggler without having to PvP. Considering that a smuggler visibility shoots up dramatically over his career - being a criminal - he/she will find themselves looking down a BH's barrel many times unless some structures are in place to allow a PvE smuggler to stick to PvE with incredible effectiveness.
This is what the reputation system brings to the table. A way for the pve player to stay off the terms with more control. Sure he may lose rep if he gets caught on a mission but that is the risk part that smugglers asked for. Then he can continue to lose rep every time he gets caught or cheats on his employers or he could take a hit on profits and gain his rep back.
Here are some solutions.
1.The first idea is the PvE/PvP "switch" which allow all players to ability to choose between a PC or NPC BH to kill them.
IMHO this is not a good solution. The majority of players, including myself, would choose the npc (even if they are into pvp) because it will be much simpler. I know the devs can make a strong BH npc but chances are it cant be that tough or there would be no point (if it was sure death why not just stand there and die instead of wasting time and death is not really a penalty of much importance). The purpose of the bounties was the incentive to stay off the terms and that is what the pvp bounties are for a majority of people. An npc bounty is not an incentive to stay off the terms IMHO (so I die, then clone, no biggie). Not wanting to be griefed is an incentive.
2.The second is the Low Risk Smuggler Mission, which allows PvE oriented smugglers to opportunity to gain equal smuggler XP while at the same time offering missions that result in less visibility gain if it is failed. A great way to implement this is to have all smuggler missions start the same. If the smuggler decides to "skim" from his suppliers then the mission posses a very large increase in visibility gain risk. If a smuggler decides to not "skim" the mission delivery, then a mission failure results in very little visibility gain because you can always explain to your boss that still have the reciept from the cloning tube you just popped out of. BTW because of the ease of avoiding visibility in this system, all BH's will be PC. There should be no excuse for "accidentally" getting a million visibility points.
This is what the rep system essentially brings without having to make seperate missions. The more you skim the more the risk. And even if you get caught there is the opportunity to make it up by not skimming at all and just losing profit to regain rep and stay off the terms.
3.The third idea is a Fine Option when visibility puts one on the terminals. PvE oriented people can choose to pay the fine. For people whowould rather duke it out, they can accept a PC bounty on their heads. If a player chooses to not compensate the state for their actions, a BH will be.
Again the rep system incorporates this by the hit to your profits in exchange for rep points.
Hopefully more people will reply and state their opinions. I would like this system to work and the feedback is important to see what I missed or may be wrong about.
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