Smuggler Archive
Thread: Idea to protect yourself from TOS grief
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Daturaze
Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:02 pm
#1
JerethBane wrote:
If you are worried about someone griefing you with the TOS in regard to slicing, I recommend using a contract system for slicing
Send yourself and emial with the contract and keep it in your email folder. When someone asks for a slcie, forward the contract to them and say that you will being when they read it and fulfill the pre-slice conditions, and of course send the signed (and serial numbered) contract back to you.
....
I believe this contract could shield of from a lot of problems. 1) The serial number of the item is verifiable by the customer and the slicer, 2) the customer realizes that if they try to burn the smuggler, they will lose their item, 3) it creats a paper trail if someone falsely accuses you of stealing an item that they paid you to slice. The CSR's can verify that the item is not in your possession (serial number) and they can verify that the customer did not send you the bank tip they agreed to send you.
Any thoughts on this?
Thanks for grabbing the old bull by the horns on this on JerethBane!
A couple thoughts;
1) Do our contracts between players override the TOS? Probably not, it will provide a trail, but again, it comes down to a CSR being a judge - and in my experience it's iffy which way they'll lean.
2) This does not address or will stop a player intent on griefing a smuggler. When the CSR comes on they'll see a report from the customer saying "He won't give it back" and will see that the weapon in the Smuggler's possession matches the serial number in the email you received from the client
Ultimately, I'm sure 99% of the dealings a smuggler will have will be honorable and problem free, my concerns haven't been about situations that have happened, but if situations that COULD happen.
I think a contract system would cause more headaches then it would solve - and would take away some Roleplaying fun. Personally if you like Smuggling, if you like slicing, then don't worry about it, the chances of you getting burned are probably pretty low anyway - I'm just trying to raise a discussion on a potential hassle for the Smuggler
5 Stars Man!
Cheers
Dat
Planeseeker
Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:20 pm
#2
Ternque01 wrote:
Just make the solution simple as hell and more effective than your suggestion above.
Have them tip you the fee before you slice it. You can't be griefed by a player who has you slice the weapon, refuse to pay, then call a CSR when you won't return their weapon.
There are more people griefing to get free slices than people griefing to get you banned for keeping their weapon. By having them tip you first, you get rid of that 80% of cheaters/griefers trying to get a free slice and end a bad situation before it starts. Those who would trade their weapon to you only to call a CSR and get you banned is another story.
To a point I agree with this. The point being that just about everyone I have sliced for tips first. I've had a couple that paid in the trade window, and not one that didn't pay. Guess I'm lucky.
See, I've changed the info in my bio to have all the prices for slicing, and then a requirement of half up front (via tip) and half on completion (via trade window). To me that seems a lot more smuggly 
than having them pay all in advance or after delivery. That is the reason I dislike these ideas. To me they take away from the essence of being a smuggler. InDat's thread Ternque said that an interface window would basically make slicing something a trained chimp could do, and not really smuggler-ish. I agree with that.
than having them pay all in advance or after delivery. That is the reason I dislike these ideas. To me they take away from the essence of being a smuggler. InDat's thread Ternque said that an interface window would basically make slicing something a trained chimp could do, and not really smuggler-ish. I agree with that.And to the original poster: Nice write up. 5*'s, but I'm a smuggler and I don't need a legal document/lawyerfor thearse that tries to get mein trouble.That's what my blaster is for 
Seriously, I don't know if a legal-typed document is really what we need. If you make sure to slice in areas that aren't so heavily spammed you can just /report and be done with the offending toon. Going through emails is only going to mean more work for the CSR, and more work, means more time you could potentially be suspended pending review. On the flip side, it might mean the difference between banning or not, I just don't want that additional headache each time someone wants a slice. It feels like work, not fun IMO.
Seriously, I don't know if a legal-typed document is really what we need. If you make sure to slice in areas that aren't so heavily spammed you can just /report and be done with the offending toon. Going through emails is only going to mean more work for the CSR, and more work, means more time you could potentially be suspended pending review. On the flip side, it might mean the difference between banning or not, I just don't want that additional headache each time someone wants a slice. It feels like work, not fun IMO.My 2cr.
Graby
Graby
kgmkiorys
Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:28 pm
#3
I honnestly think that making a contract between a customer and a slicer is the exaact opposite of what should be the act of slicing, it is supposed to be illegal in rear streets and very discreet, with no evidence that any of the peoples involved were in the area.
So what? well, let's try to take the example of the rear street, the guy comes to you because he knows you're a good smuggler, he knows that because he's asked someone to point him a good slicer, one should only slice if introduced by the proper person, as far as i'm concerned, i am a perfectly legit citizen, but, if a friend of mine sends me someone, i can try to help my friend's friend, i do take the appropriate precautions, ask him not to talk about this unless they are confident the guy isn't a gisguised Corsec trying to catch me. All in all you have the customer to be introduced by a third party, you have to have a witness of the situation, you have to be in a rear place so that a potential griefer can not delay his chat to hide the 100 lines of the report. In one word you have to act like a Smuggler.
That will protect you from any grief, and if yo feel the guy is beginning to get you into trouble, report him first, he doesn't want to pay you, that's stealing from people and against the TOS too. Keep trying to get the trade window so that it can be investigated you wanted to trade back the item. If you report the guy and the csr decides to show himself, play it dumb: "that Joe Griefer doesn't intend to pay me the price i asked for the slice, and he doesn't want to get his weapon, i have a useless pike and have lost time and money... ". Never show the item as an hostage until you get paid, just as an item he doesn't want to get back.
Ternque01
Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:34 pm
#4
kgmkiorys wrote:
I honnestly think that making a contract between a customer and a slicer is the exaact opposite of what should be the act of slicing, it is supposed to be illegal in rear streets and very discreet, with no evidence that any of the peoples involved were in the area.
So what? well, let's try to take the example of the rear street, the guy comes to you because he knows you're a good smuggler, he knows that because he's asked someone to point him a good slicer, one should only slice if introduced by the proper person, as far as i'm concerned, i am a perfectly legit citizen, but, if a friend of mine sends me someone, i can try to help my friend's friend, i do take the appropriate precautions, ask him not to talk about this unless they are confident the guy isn't a gisguised Corsec trying to catch me. All in all you have the customer to be introduced by a third party, you have to have a witness of the situation, you have to be in a rear place so that a potential griefer can not delay his chat to hide the 100 lines of the report. In one word you have to act like a Smuggler.
That will protect you from any grief, and if yo feel the guy is beginning to get you into trouble, report him first, he doesn't want to pay you, that's stealing from people and against the TOS too. Keep trying to get the trade window so that it can be investigated you wanted to trade back the item. If you report the guy and the csr decides to show himself, play it dumb: "that Joe Griefer doesn't intend to pay me the price i asked for the slice, and he doesn't want to get his weapon, i have a useless pike and have lost time and money... ". Never show the item as an hostage until you get paid, just as an item he doesn't want to get back.
WOW! We should get someone in here that is familiar with logging conversations. I sometimes use the /log command to log conversations, but don't know how many lines it holds or if it clears everytime you use it. Your ideas of going somewhere quiet to get a good conversation log to protect yourself is invaluable.
On the whole this is great advice kgmkirys, and I don't say that lightly.
Daturaze
Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:40 pm
#5
Ditto!
My understanding was that it held 100 lines, which if you're at the Coronet starport - means it won't keep. But I stand to be corrected here. Not only is it a good idea, but it certainly adds to the RP element as well.
Cheers
Dat
Dat
Planeseeker
Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:43 pm
#6
kgmkiorys wrote:
I honnestly think that making a contract between a customer and a slicer is the exaact opposite of what should be the act of slicing, it is supposed to be illegal in rear streets and very discreet, with no evidence that any of the peoples involved were in the area.
So what? well, let's try to take the example of the rear street, the guy comes to you because he knows you're a good smuggler, he knows that because he's asked someone to point him a good slicer, one should only slice if introduced by the proper person, as far as i'm concerned, i am a perfectly legit citizen, but, if a friend of mine sends me someone, i can try to help my friend's friend, i do take the appropriate precautions, ask him not to talk about this unless they are confident the guy isn't a gisguised Corsec trying to catch me. All in all you have the customer to be introduced by a third party, you have to have a witness of the situation, you have to be in a rear place so that a potential griefer can not delay his chat to hide the 100 lines of the report. In one word you have to act like a Smuggler.
That will protect you from any grief, and if yo feel the guy is beginning to get you into trouble, report him first, he doesn't want to pay you, that's stealing from people and against the TOS too. Keep trying to get the trade window so that it can be investigated you wanted to trade back the item. If you report the guy and the csr decides to show himself, play it dumb: "that Joe Griefer doesn't intend to pay me the price i asked for the slice, and he doesn't want to get his weapon, i have a useless pike and have lost time and money... ". Never show the item as an hostage until you get paid, just as an item he doesn't want to get back.
I've been doing this since I got Slicing 4. I kinda have to. I'm on dial-up, so if I try to do any kind of trading/slicing in a starport with more than6 other players, I might as well forget it. So, I generally try to go somewhere that is a little quieter, hidden, and generally unfrequented by other players. That just makes it easier on me, the added bounus of being able to get anything they say on the log is priceless.
Graby
kgmkiorys
Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:45 pm
#7
Daturaze wrote:
Ditto!
My understanding was that it held 100 lines, which if you're at the Coronet starport - means it won't keep. But I stand to be corrected here. Not only is it a good idea, but it certainly adds to the RP element as well.
Cheers
Dat
that's all about that in the end, we are the easiest profession for RP, we don't have to be maniac about RPing, just efficient, and doing so wo woudl see a lot of troubles disappear, the problem is that this CM-rifleman with the DOT exceptionnal gun to be sliced won't certainly understand what RP would mean. But as long as they don't put an IQ test before subscribing, we can't do anything about it.
EnderUK
Fri Nov 26, 2004 4:57 pm
#8
hmmm if they don't pay can't you just destroy the weapon? this means it's not in you inventory when the CRS comes along to check. Persoanly I don't have any tools on me expect when I need something slicing for myself. Use to have them for guild but they all moved to eqII. I think I'm the only one attempting to balance the two in my guild.
Empty_Skull
Fri Nov 26, 2004 5:55 pm
#9
this is what i do on my smuggling account
1- work in either group chat (group up the person wanting the slice) or talk completly in tells
2- have them answer "Yes" to these questions
-you know slicing is RANDOM and cant be chosen (speed/damage)
-the slice % is random
- you have paid me XXX to slice XXX
then before i begin to slice i take a SS of our talk (much eaiser to do when in group chat or in tells, i have a Group/Tells chat tab)
this way you have somewhat proof of what was going to happen, on both side, i have it in logs and so do they.
kinda hard to say :your rippin me off for blah blah reason" when you have them already agreeing to the services.
besides, taking them aside (in group) or whispering (tells) kinda keeps you in character, sneaking around, working in secret.
*this is my 3rd time around with smuggelr so im looking more as it being a role playing proffesion than anything else, since SOE seems to think it doesnt exist as ANY proffesion
JerethBane
Sat Nov 27, 2004 12:07 am
#10
As a roleplayer myself, I understand that one might look at this contract idea as a breech fo roleplaying, but ultimately it is a contract between the players, rather than the characters.
However, I do like the proposal of taking my ideas and incorporating them in a tell or group chat conversation with the other player and /logging the convo.
I also wouldn't use this tactic or the contract with any regular run of the mill slice. But, if someone came to me with a krayt pistol or something similar, I'd likely use it, just to shield myslef from the possibility you know.
JerethBane
Sat Nov 27, 2004 1:51 am
#11
If you are worried about someone griefing you with the TOS in regard to slicing, I recommend using a contract system for slicing
Send yourself and emial with the contract and keep it in your email folder. When someone asks for a slcie, forward the contract to them and say that you will being when they read it and fulfill the pre-slice conditions, and of course send the signed (and serial numbered) contract back to you.
I (undersigned) heretofore known as the customer enter into this contract with (your name) heretofor known as the Smuggler.
The customer agrees to the following provisions:
1) Slicing is a completely random act. The smuggler has no control over the type of slice or the effectivness of the slice. The smuggler may only control the basic success or failure of a slice
To that end, the smuggler agrees to use a molecular clamp to guarantee a successful slice on your item.
2) Locked containers often hold useless items. The customer understands that his/her chances of recieving a useful item are extremely low. To that end, the smuggler affirms that he will return any locked container to be sliced with all of the items it contained
3) The customer agrees to pay the following rates for slicing:
Armor: (x credits per segment)
Weapon (x credits per weapon)
Container (x credits per container)
Factory crate (x credits per crate)
This price is set by the Smuggler and is non-negotiable. If you wish to supply the smuggler with tools for the slice, they will only be purchased by the smuggler at fair market value and will not increse or decrease the price of the slicing service.
4) Once an item has been turned over to the Smuggler for slicing, the customer is bound by this contract to pay for services.
5) Before accepting an item for slicing, the Smuggler must recieve a reply to this email with the contract intact and unaltered. The email will also contain an affirmation of these clauses by the customer and the serial numbers of all items to be sliced.
5) Payment: The customer agrees to forfeit the item (or items) to be sliced if payment is not recieved. In order to verify payment, the customer will send a bank tip to the smuggler while the trade window is open. Upon reciept of funds by bank transfer, and bank transfer only, the smuggler will complete the trade with the customer.
4) Based on the stated formula found in clause three, your total for thisservice is: (x credits)
I believe this contract could shield of from a lot of problems. 1) The serial number of the item is verifiable by the customer and the slicer, 2) the customer realizes that if they try to burn the smuggler, they will lose their item, 3) it creats a paper trail if someone falsely accuses you of stealing an item that they paid you to slice. The CSR's can verify that the item is not in your possession (serial number) and they can verify that the customer did not send you the bank tip they agreed to send you.
Any thoughts on this?
Ternque01
Sat Nov 27, 2004 1:57 am
#12
Just make the solution simple as hell and more effective than your suggestion above.
Have them tip you the fee before you slice it. You can't be griefed by a player who has you slice the weapon, refuse to pay, then call a CSR when you won't return their weapon.
There are more people griefing to get free slices than people griefing to get you banned for keeping their weapon. By having them tip you first, you get rid of that 80% of cheaters/griefers trying to get a free slice and end a bad situation before it starts. Those who would trade their weapon to you only to call a CSR and get you banned is another story.
Sigmund
Sat Nov 27, 2004 12:16 pm
#13
Well this is definately something to try in the mean time.. but for the long-term, let me point at a related thread- and put in your 2 creds! ^_^
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