Smuggler Archive
Thread: There needs to be a real underworld beneath the cities.
I have a smuggler and a ranger on different toons. I had mentioned on the ranger boards about how our cammo ability will finally have a GCW related role now since enemy troopers will attack on sight. We could cammo ourselves and friends in order to move into enemy cities and scope out enemy positions without immediately being attacked on sight. I do feel that a ranger who is a high end (scout) should have such a role.
One of the rangers was a smuggler also and they suggested that Ranger needed to be nerfed so that their cammo did not work against factional NPC's in cities. This bothers me obviously since I think ranger already has concealment abilities and they havent been really useful in the past. Keep in mind that for every NPC in range there is a "dice roll" that occurs, and for each roll our cammo could "break", so it is not without great risk to try sneaking around in an enemy city. Also the larger our party is, the more likely that one of our cammo's would break so I don’t see this competing with smuggling. It also should have no benefit in allowing us to avoid contraband scans. (if it does, then I agree that it should not)
However as a smuggler also and as someone who is familiar with allot of green-marine's posts this brings up an idea of having a real "underworld". I am talking about a network of caves and run down city streets underneath the major cities which allows smugglers to get to various places in the "underword." To enter this "underworld" you would actually need to slice into a special location and people entering the underworld would need to be grouped with a smuggler. You would actually move around through a "dungeon" type of environment and everyone who is grouped with the smuggler would take on the smugglers "faction status". These underwords should have back doors into the cantinas, banks and other points of interest throughout the city. Also smugglers should have and extra option to land in these underworld's directly. This would entice players who want to operate in the enemy cities to actually ride there aboard the smugglers MP ship since landing at the startports should amount to immediate detection and attack.
In the underworld there might be Jabba's thugs and Valarians and other people of the underworld down there, and a smuggler who had good faction with these would be able to move their party throughout the underworld without being attacked.
I also see this adding to PVE and the Jedi BH conflicts: for example, a Jedi gets attacked buy a bounty hunter or others while getting a mind buff in a cantina. The smuggler groups with the Jedi, and slices a door in the back of the cantina. The Smuggler and the Jedi head down into the underworld where there is a space terminal where the Jedi can get to their ship.
These underworlds could be very useful for getting artisans and non-combat classes through Imperial cities.
There could also be allot of smuggler specific content added to these locations as they could be the staging point for their smuggler specific misisons.
By implementing this content in this way, it would benefit not just smugglers, but all players.
I can see how this underworld idea would be useful for PVP as well. A smuggler could smuggler PVP enabled players into the underworld to stage attacks on the enemy. Mean while a PVE enabled Ranger could use cammo to sneak around an enemy city and find out where the players were. (For example, the ranger could sneak into an enemy cantina and see that there are 3 overts in the cantina.) The smuggler takes a team of opposite faction overs on their multi-player ship and lands in the underworld. They then sneak through a hidden underworld door in the back door of the cantina and kill the 3 overts.
_Nightrunner_ wrote:One of the rangers was a smuggler also and they suggested that Ranger needed to be nerfed so that their cammo did not work against factional NPC's in cities. This bothers me obviously since I think ranger already has concealment abilities and they havent been really useful in the past.
I'm gonna go out on a giant limb here and say that I was that ranger who's a smuggler also...
Original Ranger board post
I would encourage people to read my [lengthy] post there and see what I really meant, which was my attempt at organizing my thoughts as I pro and conned whom should get such an ability, and in what form. Also, because the post in NO WAY WHATSOEVER involved the word "nerf". I even clarified that I wasn't trying to take anything away from the Ranger camo skill, and that camo against faction NPCs is something that the Rangers don't currently have, and something I think should be added to the camo ability in the wild.
I suggested "urban camouflage" as one of the early terms Smugglers used when proposing such a skill, as well as several other more common ideas for giving Smugglers a way to get players past factional NPC detection, as well as contraband scans. I don't even have a problem with Ranger camo getting people past contraband scans in the wild, as it's perfectly logical that if you're camouflaged, the squad won't know you're there to scan.
Additionally, "Underworld" is not a prepositional phrase, and has no real bearing whatsoever on being physically located UNDER cities. It refers to the general criminal overlord, scum and villany, black market niche in the universe. I am not, however, at all adverse to giving Smugglers Underworldly places to sneak through, which would rather awesomely include underground shortcuts.
I really am, honest to god trying to be fair to both, and all professions, as I think Bounty Hunters should be strongly involved in whatever implementation of the Underworld (or is that lower-case u?) should be implemented in the game. I've spent enough time in both the Ranger and Smuggler boards to see that everyone thinks their profession has it the worst, and fights other professions getting skills like a personal attack. The grass really is greener on the other side of the nerf. I don't want to take anything away from Smugglers, and I don't want to take anything away from Rangers; I want them both to co-exist very nicely in their own unique roles, and I've been very impressed and amused by how similar the communities are.
Aelik Orrigo: Smuggler, Pilot, and Ranger. Kettemoor Our cammo does currently work against faction NPC's. Your post suggested that we remove the ability for that to work in the cities in order to accomodate smugglers. That I interpreted as a nerf. I am not angry in any way. I just was excited that ranger's cammo abilities were going to be useful for something GCW related, namely sneaking around in enemy cities. You made a post saying that rangers should not be able to do this becuase that was smuggler domain. Hence I explained why allowing rangers to have this ability should not bump up against smugglers and I introduced an idea that would give some really cool content to everyone and make being a smuggler very cool instead of doing what you suggested and remove a ability rangers "already have and which already works for the most part and is already in the game". I just thought giving smugglers some really cool content while allowing rangers to keep their "camoflage" and sneak abilities as they are now and already exist was a better idea than "removing rangers capabilities in cities" as you suggested.
I dont want this to get into a flame war or anything... it was just the way I saw it. Also Icompletely understand why you would defensive about someone having a potential to get past enemy troops since smuggler's see that at one of their roles and rightfully should. Rangers have a high likelihood of their cammo breaking in such a situation and should have no ability to avoid scans. If we implemented the underworld idea, then everyone would have really cool content and smugglers could complete avoid any involvement with enemy facitoned NPC's in the cities including all scans by using the "underworld".
This is specifically what you posted:
- Rangers are the masters of the outdoors, and while they already have the ability to mask people from NPCs, the reasoning behind the camouflage skill is taking resources from nature, from the planet, and making something that will people people blend in with the natural environment. A city is an urban environment and entirely different. Some guy walking through Coronet with sticks and leaves and animal doo stuck to him is DEFINITELY going to be looked at funny by the local law enforcement. What realistic basis does the Ranger, the outdoorsman, have for sneaking people through cities?
- There seems to be some debate if camo works against opposing or low faction NPCs. If that's the case, or has a lower chance of success, I'd think this also weakens the debate for Rangers being able to camo Rebels against Imperials, and vice versa.
- Takes away from Smugglers actually Smuggling. If such a skill is given to the Rangers, what does that leave to give the Smugglers, and this is a feature the Smuggler community has been asking, begging, pleading for.
The ranger community is designed as a "stealth" class. We ALREADY HAVE the ability to cammo against factioned NPC's. You are stating that you wish that rangers should not be able to cammo rebels against imperial NPC's. We can ALREADY DO THIS, I do it all the time. You are saying that if rangers can avoid combat with oppsing faciton NPC's that it will detract from smugglers. I am saying that rangers should be able to be stealthy (this is one of the primary roles of rangers) and that we should not be relegated to creatures and NPC's We can track players, we can track NPC's, and we already have the ability to cammo ourselves against enemy NPC's Nothing will need to be added or changed for this to work as it already exists.
You are calling to have this functionality removed from ranger so that smuggler can feel better. I was trying to offer up cool smuggler content. Wouldnt you rather fly people around in your YT and guide them through the underworld, avoiding scans and enemy troops alltogether or are you just out to get a ability removed from ranger that already exists. Why should smuggling detract from ranger's ability to be "stealthy" if it doesnt have too? SOE has new developers... lets use them instead of continuing the pattern of quick fix nerfs that have plagued the game since release.
The pros and cons to this ability still don't really change. If the Rangers are the ones that have the quick and easy camo to get past scans and factional NPCs, that does weaken the case for the Smugglers being able to do so.
I don't want to nerf anybody, but to be fair and realistic about it, the Smugglers have the best case for getting people through cities, and if Rangers can do it, any system that might be implemented for the Smugglers would have to be competitive with the Ranger camo skill. If the crackdown becomes a real issue, players are more likely to toss a few credits at a Ranger to /conceal them, as opposed to have to buy faction, or be persuaded out, or be in a group with, or carry a disguise item from a Smuggler, and so forth.
I just want a fair, share the love way to giving both classes a role in this, and splitting it to city/wilderness seems logical.
Egowyn wrote:
Some interesting ideas there I dont belive we need a LITERAL underground, but yes some places that only smugglers can accsess would be nice, places where NPCs give smuggler missions or (for a price) gives the smuggler information on who is looking for skilled smugglers (example) Your out on endor at the smugglers outpost (wich itself should be a smuggler only location) talk to an NPC that tells you "no I don't need your services right now, been a bit of a dry spell round here, know what i mean" in the convo menu youd have the option to progress the convo, end it or bribe him, bribe him and he tells you the name or location of another NPC at some other smuggler only loacle who IS in need of your help.
Far as the ranger deal well i think the ground game should have its radar removed completly, cause any masking or camoflage you do is pointless to a curious and or bold player ...red dot on radar 100m away, no line of sight no means of identifing the target but what the hell lets go kill it. dumping radar would make people act far more carefuly while declared. blue dot on radar 100m away no line of sight no reason to even know its there but hey lets go look and see who that is and what they are up to. drop the radar and you have to ACTUALY see the NPC or player to know anything about it. course this will never happen and we have to make the best of it.
Camo in cities is definitly somthing that shouldnt be doable just anywhere, for instance standing in the square outside of theed star port (no camo) on a blacony at the theed med center (yes camo) and make it so that blacony ledge is NOT a wall blocking vision rifleman/ranger could sit up there scouting for thier group hidden away call up his team when there is a good target and the team swoops in andengages while the ranger/rifleman snipes.
I agree a lot. Especially about the radar going away. I can understand maybe having a radar in the datapad, but it should take up a lot of the screen when used, as if you have your inventory open, you can't really see whats going on around you at the time, just whats on the open window. At the same time, maybe make a new "control-m" function. I'm all for it showing buildings and all, but it shouldn't show players or mobs, just buildings and other structures, because they are MAPPED!!! It's hard to do anything covert if someone can see you 150 meters away.
Also, on the underground in a city idea, I thin we should have "instanced" rooms/vendors/seedy bars and such in all the cities. They already have all the code for this in EQ2, and it might give folks a reason to go back to the major cities. Also, this would make it a lot easier to incorporate an underworld