Smuggler Archive
Thread: Study: Armor/Weapon Slicing Stealth Changes? Detailed, includes proofs
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ErwinRommel
Sat Jun 19, 2004 9:07 pm
#1
Through recent slicing sessions and forum posts by the devs,I have come to the idea that perhaps stealth changes, or for you pessimists-nerfs, have been made to slicing over the last month or so as far as I have noticed. I might have found proof of that, but more on that later.
My Theory: Slicing has been changed quietly thus far in order to start to bring items to either: A) a level more acceptable by the post combat rebalance stats, or B) have been nerfed in order to quietly control the growing levels of uber items. I prefer the second theory, but of course if I am right both could apply. This will be elaborated at the end.
ARMOR-
A primary slicable item that seems to be ever expanding in its "l33tness" is armor. The highest armors now can reach the 90% cap and armor that can easily reach over 80% (with included stun protection) with a good slice. Armor is obviouslya a faucet of attention from the devs because of a fewchanges I have noticed in the game and while reading the forums. Armor slicing was capped at 90% in order to limit armor effectiveness slice %. The common thought process I have picked up over time as the devs opinion on armor (and thusly armor slicing being used to make such good armor) is that it is overpowered and needs serious rebalancing.
The Reasoning:
The devs could control growing armor defense %'s by making it much harder to get a effectiveness slice or/and making the effectiveness slices that are gotten less substantial. 40% plus slices are much harder to get.
Small Scale Test:
Master Smuggler: Using as far as I knew, average AUKs, exceptional knives and clamps (98%+ experimented power when crafting them) and no nearby crafting stationof any sort:
Bought 18 peices of armor, or 2 full sets of composite (before at the time giving up and buying crappier post-effectiveness sliced armor peices): All encumbrance sliced armor except for 3 minor peices and the leggings of one quit. That meants 14 out of 18 were encumbrance sliced, and those slices were ok, commonly in 35% range, some lower, possibly one over 40%. This event is what later helped inspire this theory. This stuck out to my very much because in all my months of slicing as a master, I have never recieved so many encumbrance slices at one time (while wanting effectiveness slices, lucky me of course), and never such a run of low slices at the same time. Now before we go on, it is important to note this could be attributed to bad luck however over the course of slicing the odd peice of armor from then on out, a similar pattern follows.
"Proofs"-
-90% cap
-In the recent answer to to the latest 19 questions (In Live forum, 6-10-04),Thunderheart (dev) said these pertinant quotes:
"Over time, as various combat variables have increased in scale such as armor resistances, weapon efficiencies, equipment slices, buffs have also been pushed beyond balanced limits by exceptionally smart players. As this information works its way through the community, it tilts all the numbers to an extreme imbalance."
"With the commodities revamp that is currently underway..."
"SWG’s weapons were always supposed to have a variety of useful and efficient weapons available, but here again, with all the tweaks and changes over the last 8+ months have caused a series of imbalances."
-Small scale tests and observations in theprevious examples.
WEAPONS-
I am amaster smuggler on the Scylla server using very high % (98-99%) knives and clamps (though as far as I know average WUKs/AUKs) in the same house as a +42.283% weapon crafting station though not in the same direct room as it.
I recently had 20 loot enhanced launcher pistols made for myself and sliced them in the above conditions. Out of the 20, only 5 were speed sliced, the rest were damage, which of course could be attributed to luck but regardless, still seemed like a very high % sliced for damage. Not only that, but the slices themselves were for the majority above average, many even above 30%.
Before taking up rifleman, I bought various rifles from a vendor in that house that I sliced the launchers in above and it only took me a few trys each in order to get perfect or near perfect damage slices on all of them (I'm not complaining 
The Reasoning:
My Conclusions as far as my theory is concerned: As higher % defense armors entered into the hands of he players and were becoming more commonplace to the average player rather than just the super rich or people with the right connections, a indirect way to counterbalance this is by giving the players stronger weapons in order to beat that imbalance. It is important to note that all of the above tests could be caused by luck, but I doubt it and it is somewhat improbable.
Overall conclusions: Maybe I am just paranoid to some extent and had a really long bout of bad luck and good luck that corresponded to this theory, but I feel the idea is not totally unfounded because of the great proof offered in the TH quotes especially the "With the commodities revamp that is currently underway..." quote which offers great insight I think into what is going on behind the scenes for balancing. It is not unheard of for the devs to change something they might consider minor, such as the damage type to a particularly overhunted creature or the infamous 40k mokk missions and not give a patch note explaining it. I am not blaming them, or even directly asking for an answer on this matter, but rather I'd like to see what the rest of the community feels. I spent a lot of time on this document and despite extensive testing, feel it holds at least some validity. Thank you for your time in reading this.
Message Edited by ErwinRommel on 06-19-2004 09:10 PM
Rivern
Sat Jun 19, 2004 9:30 pm
#2
Your non-rant "paragraph" form has stopped me from skimming the post and calling you crazy. My gears are turning, and, like you said, these stealth changes have obviously occurred in the past and will continue to happen subtly.
JudoBike2000
Sat Jun 19, 2004 10:07 pm
#3
Nice Work...
I too have noticed a slight shift in the way slices have been occurring for me. Because of all the slice monkies on my server I have not been slicing much lately, but I get mostly Encumbrance Slices. In fact it used to be pretty much even or more precisely "random" with no expected outcome. I sliced a suit of high resist composite just last night and 7 othe slices were great for encumbrance, 2 of the slices were for effectiveness and one was 12% and the other was 16%.
My 2 credits...
KaernLegorah
Sat Jun 19, 2004 10:17 pm
#4
ErwinRommel wrote:
Armor slicing was capped at 90% in order to limit armor effectiveness slice %.
Armor was capped at 90% because anything above that is game-breakingly ridiculous. Capping armor effectiveness effects slicing but it was not a change directly aimed at slicing.
ErwinRommel wrote:
Using as far as I knew, average AUKs, exceptional knives and clamps (98%+ experimented power when crafting them) and no nearby crafting stationof any sort
Tool quality doesn't matter.
ErwinRommel wrote:
Bought 18 peices of armor
You're using a FAR too small sample group. In order to even remotely test anything effectively you need at least 100 (which is even still too low to be accurate). I got 10 damage slices on weapons once.... IN A ROW, so you need a far larger sample than 18 to prove anything.
ErwinRommel wrote:
"Proofs"-
-90% cap
-In the recent answer to to the latest 19 questions (In Live forum, 6-10-04),Thunderheart (dev) said these pertinant quotes:
"Over time, as various combat variables have increased in scale such as armor resistances, weapon efficiencies, equipment slices, buffs have also been pushed beyond balanced limits by exceptionally smart players. As this information works its way through the community, it tilts all the numbers to an extreme imbalance."
"With the commodities revamp that is currently underway..."
"SWG’s weapons were always supposed to have a variety of useful and efficient weapons available, but here again, with all the tweaks and changes over the last 8+ months have caused a series of imbalances."
-Small scale tests and observations in theprevious examples.
90% (again) was not a change directly aimed at slicing. TH's comment doesn't say "the following game elements cause imbalance in and of themselves." The point he was making is that when you COMBINE all of those elements it creates imbalance; he was not singling anything out.
So what if the commodities market is getting revamped? What does that have to do with anything? Commodities doesn't refer to slicing or even slicing equipment; it refers to the bazaar, vendors, merchants, etc. Whatever point you're trying to make with that quote you need to clarify.
The "tweaks and changes" refers to hotfixes and patches, such as the radical changes the T21 went through for a while. When they change just one weapon, one item, one type of armor, or one type of weapon the change might not take into full account all the other weapons and armor in the game. This causes an imbalanced item to become imbalanced in a new way. Other tweaks to other items can compound upon that problem. They were not even remotely refering to slicing with that quote.
Small scale tests prove absolutely nothing.
ErwinRommel wrote:
I am amaster smuggler on the Scylla server using very high % (98-99%) knives and clamps (though as far as I know average WUKs/AUKs) in the same house as a +42.283% weapon crafting station though not in the same direct room as it.
I recently had 20 loot enhanced launcher pistols made for myself and sliced them in the above conditions. Out of the 20, only 5 were speed sliced, the rest were damage, which of course could be attributed to luck but regardless, still seemed like a very high % sliced for damage. Not only that, but the slices themselves were for the majority above average, many even above 30%.
Again, tool quality means nothing, and (again again) your tests are FAR too small in scale. I know you want them to be small in scale, but (again) small scale tests mean nothing. My statistics teacher would've put my head through the chalkboard if I told him a sample size of 20 was enough to draw a conclusion. 
ErwinRommel wrote:
The Reasoning:
My Conclusions as far as my theory is concerned: As higher % defense armors entered into the hands of he players and were becoming more commonplace to the average player rather than just the super rich or people with the right connections, a indirect way to counterbalance this is by giving the players stronger weapons in order to beat that imbalance. It is important to note that all of the above tests could be caused by luck, but I doubt it and it is somewhat improbable.
COULD be caused by luck? Improbable? Dude, it's HIGHLY probable that your test results were caused by luck (or random chance depending on which term you prefer). There's another thread on this forum with somebody's data compiled from 4.5 months of slicing with almost 2000 slices for both weapons and armor. THAT is a test that has meaning. THAT is a sample size from which you can draw conclusions. 18 pieces of armor, and 20 weapons means nothing. I apologize because I'm probably being really mean in how I word this, and it isn't my intention to flame or be mean. I'm just trying to drive home the point that your data has no statistical significance.
Overall, I think you're being a bit paranoid, and I think you're reading into the Dev quotes far more than you are supposed to. In fact, you should very rarely try and find hidden meaning behind Dev quotes, because there very rarely is any. I'm not saying it's impossible for the Devs to have changed something, but I think your "proof" holds less water than box with no bottom
SimmusKhan
Sun Jun 20, 2004 4:15 am
#5
Well, sliced four sets of 70% effect composite today.
That's 36 pieces of armour.
20 effect slices
16 encumbrance slices.
Usual range of mid 20s to a few 40's on encum, 20s and a few low 30s for effect.
No change as far as I can see.
(Bria)
PhoenixOrion
Sun Jun 20, 2004 5:18 am
#6
blah blah blah...blah blah blah.
Slicing is Random. Kthxbye.
ErwinRommel
Sun Jun 20, 2004 9:54 am
#7
Thank you for everyone who has wrote in so far with their comments, that is what I was asking for.
However, I'd like to point a few things out:
1) I many times pointed out that this could be explained by luck, SO, I don't understand where this person gets off being so condenscending and arrogant and ranting on about my sample sizes. I never once professed to be running a thoughough testing here, I mean give me a break ffs. When did I ever say,"this 30+ armor slice test is conclusive evidence". Get off your high horse buddy.
2) The reason I included the bit about the item quality was to provide as much of a control as a possibly could, and it does seem with higher quality stuffI get a higher range of slices but it is still random to a large extent.
Pheonix, what the hellis your problem? I thought I left you behind when I left Pax, you were still a jerk then and you still are now. Now I cant even escape you in game as your joining the same guild as me. What do I have to do toget you off my back, put a hit out on you in RL? Give me a break,you need to get a life and somethingbetter to do. Now I know how wejoined the forums at the same time but you 5x more posts- I'd wager 90% of them are pointless crap like posted here. "blah blah..slicing is random" really well thought out post. Truely classic. Sounds like your cranky, time for bed bud, no point in trolling the forums at 3 AM. You were probably the one to two star my post as well, really tells about your character after I put a lot of work into this post whether you disagree or not
Thanks to everyone who actually thought about what they werewriting, as for Mr. Orion, I hate you and please die, now go ahead and one star my post (no doubt you think I care what a little star by my post means). 
And to everyone else, sorry for putting in the flame and I hope to continue to get your responses.
I posted an idea to see what you guys thought, and hope to be able to continue to do so.
KaernLegorah
Sun Jun 20, 2004 2:12 pm
#8
ErwinRommel wrote:1) I many times pointed out that this could be explained by luck, SO, I don't understand where this person gets off being so condenscending and arrogant and ranting on about my sample sizes. I never once professed to be running a thoughough testing here, I mean give me a break ffs. When did I ever say, "this 30+ armor slice test is conclusive evidence". Get off your high horse buddy.2) The reason I included the bit about the item quality was to provide as much of a control as a possibly could, and it does seem with higher quality stuff I get a higher range of slices but it is still random to a large extent.
1. Yes, you did say it could be luck, but you said it was "improbable" that it was pure luck, which is just not true since it is highly probably that your results were based on luck. I also acknowledged that you said these were small tests, but the major point I was making is that small tests have no meaning for the type of conclusions you're trying to draw. I was not being condescending; I was being honest with my opinion, sorry if you took offense to it.
2. Again, tool quality doesn't matter, and we've even got the Developer Green Marine to admit to us that it's true. I can understand your wanting everything to be tested in a controlled environment.
I'm not trying to discourage you from posting, and I wasn't even trying to flame you. I was posting my opinion, and, while perhaps I came off harsher than intended, that is exactly what you asked for: opinions. Apologies again if you took offense to the wording of my post, but I feel that you lack any concrete proof to back up the concept in your head. It's entirely possible that the Devs have changed slicing behind the scenes, but there's just no real proof to back that theory. At least, none that I can see and agree with.
EnderUK
Sun Jun 20, 2004 2:28 pm
#9
I don't slice much any more but....
2 armor slices today:-
Stun Chest: 24% effect
Stun Chest 25% effect
5weapons today
Stun baton: 30% speed
Stun baton 31% damage
VK 18% speed
VK 20% damage
I forgot the last one it was pretty much a low 20 something slice.
Check out the 4 months of slicing stats (it might be on the 2nd page now) It's all pretty much random but your more likely to get mid range slices than youa re high and low end slices.
BothanMaestro
Sun Jun 20, 2004 10:56 pm
#10
You are absolutely correct in you theory, methods and conclusions.
To confirm this I sliced TWO VK's using 99% WUK, clamps and knives while buffed and on brandy, canape AND muon.
BOTH VK'S GOT A DAMAGE SLICE ABOVE 25!!!!
/endsarcasm
Later clones,
OUT!
KaiburrBossMan
Sun Jun 20, 2004 11:33 pm
#11
Erwin, could I interest you in some Magic Beans? Or perhaps even some wooden nickels? How about proof that JFK was killed by a coalition involving Elvis, Aliens, and Gary Coleman?
Seriously though amigo, its just dumb luck. I slice for 35% about as often as I slice for 15%. It appears to be completely and totally random. That being said, I DO have my superstitous little habits when I slice, just for entertainment value. I always meditate, and whip out my R3 unit when I slice, and encourage customers to punch the droid for crappy slices. SometimesI even say "Let Us Pray" as I begin slicing. I get a kick outta it, and my customers come back to me just because I entertain them whenI slice. I also warn them when I appear to be having a "bad mojo" day, but they just chuckle and hand it over anyway. Despite all these precautions, its still completely random in the end. (even after I killed my guildmates carrion spat one time asa live sacrifice to the slicing gods)
ONE-ARM
Sun Jun 20, 2004 11:56 pm
#12
Sliced 3 suits or armor today.
27 slices total
19 Effectiveness Slices
8 Encumberence
Just blind luck
27 slices total
19 Effectiveness Slices
8 Encumberence
Just blind luck
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