Smuggler Archive
Thread: Some thoughts on the upcomming publish 11 Smuggler revamp
Page 1 of 2
Dustin_Asche
Wed Sep 29, 2004 4:46 am
#1
Based on information from this site: http://swg.stratics.com/content/articles/articles.php?Cat=5&uid=422#onHold
I was reading this and I had a couple of thoughts I wanted to add. Please feel free to add your own, expand upon mine, or offer qualified approval or disapproval. Please remain civil.
My first thoughts pertain to the smuggler missions. More specifically, to the scanning system and the Smuggler's scanning resistance.
Imagine if you will this situation. You're a smuggler and you're trying to grind your way up the tree by running some missions for smuggling xp. The new smuggling missions are essentially delivery missions where at at least one point along the way you're guaranteed to have to slip through a customs check with your illegal cargo. Now scans have a probability of success and smugglers get a bonus to their chance of defeating the scan, but it's still a completely random system: the player has no control over their chance for success. So what you've got is a line of XP based on missions which are essentially delivery missions (which you can try to find someone who'll tell you that these aren't boring, but won't succeed) with the added tedium of being thrust into combat every few missions by a randomized algorythm that is completely out of your control. You may defeat or evade your foes in combat, in which case it results in little more than a slight delay in your delivery. However, should you fall at the hands of these NPCs (and remember, you're a grinding smuggler, which means you're probably also still grinding Pistoleeror some other combat class at a parallel level of completion, so stormies and such will still provide a reasonable challenge) you will have to clone, which can in itself be of variable inconvenience, but now you've undoubtedly suffered a more serious delay in your mission, possibly omitting the possibility of success.
Rather than this be the case, I'd like to see Smugglers have some sort of active skill that they can use to temporarily render themselves immune to detection. At the lowest level the duration of this skill would be so brief as to practically require the use of burst run in conjunction, but as the smuggler progresses, this skill would last longer leaving more breathing room. Additionally, this skill could also be set to a timer like Zabraks' Equilibrium skill, thus the smuggler would be faced with the choice of being patient and playing it safe by waiting for the timer to elapse before attempting to slip through the next checkpoint, or taking a risk to hurry the mission (this really brings that mission timer into perspective!).
More advanced smugglers should still get a resistance to being scanned, but this passive resistance should be secondary to the use of active skills.
I also believe that it is necissary that ALL smuggler missions should be interplanetary deliveries. After all, this was the context in which most smuggling runs were in the EU.
Next I would like to discuss the Dirty Fighting branch and the combat aspect of the Smuggler.
It strikes me as not being unobvious that the smuggler is not supposed to be a toe-to-toe fighter. He should fill the role typically filled by such roguish characters as thieves, assassins,pirates, or other such classes/professions in MMORPGs and RPGs in general: the sneaky guy with a knife in your back. Naturally this is tailored more towards the particular flavor of the class, but the same emphasis against direct attack should hold true. In the Smuggler's case, I feel that most of his skills and specials in the combat branch of the profession should be geared towards evasion.
Start by giving him some Dodge. 5, 5, 10, and 10. With the hard cap on Dodge at 120, slightly over the total boasted by a master Pistoleer or Fencer, this would allow the Smuggler to hit that cap without having to branch out into the other class wasting skillpoints.
Next a skill or two representing active evasion. A nice one I thought up would work like this: during or before combat, the smuggler could activate an ability which causes him to instantly be lost as a target by all hostile NPCs and PCs (red dots on the radar), and remain untargetable for a duration between 2 and5 seconds if activated during combat, or four times that number if activated while not in combat (preparation has its advantages). For the duration of the effect, the Smuggler cannot be targeted by hostiles and any pending actions against himon the queues of enemieswill drain out when they reach priority. However, during this duration the Smuggler is affected by a reverse of this principle, as he may not target anything hostile and queue actions drain out similarly. He also may not perform anyGCW relatedactions such as slicing the terminal of an enemy base or throwing the emergency shutdown switch on a friendly base to prevent destruction. This should prevent the skill from becoming excessively overpowered in such situations, but retaining it asreasonably useful at the same time.
A quick aside on the DL-44 pistol. This should be ap1, not 0, and the damage should be higher. The DL-44 blaster pistol is virtually always compared to having the power of a blaster rifle in the package of a pistol, therefor it stands to reason that it should have damage and ap stats more in the rifle or carbine range than in the pistol range and should be one of the more powerful, if possibly slower, pistols. Not exactly a Smuggler topic, but since the DL-44 is a perenial favorite of smugglers in the EU, I felt it relevant.
On Last Ditch. This move is a great one perfectly in character with Smuggler's concept. Its execution in game so far is somewhat clumsy, however, as it is often used as the second or third move in an introductory"one-shot-kill" combo preceeded by a KD and often some other auxiliary attack.Further, by the time the Smuggler might actually need to use a Last Ditch in context, he could possibly be too weak already due to its expensive HAM cost. Hardly what I would call a "last-ditch." With the upgraded combat system comming soon (based on what I've read in articles like the one listed above) a better way to deal with the move would be like this:
Instead of costing a bit of HAM and adding a horendous delay, the Last Ditch would instantly drain all three pools of your specials HAM regardless of their levels and pause their regeneration for a significant duration (20-30 seconds), as well as add a horrendous combat delay to the smuggler (10s minimum) This fills it's roll as an all out attack when there's no other chance left. However since it's less abusable it should also get a slight damage increase, possibly add an AOE to the attack, then add a knockdown or some similar delaying effect to allow it the role of a cover-fire shot to allow alimping retreat.
Thirdly, I'd like to take a quick look at some of the suggestions given for smuggler missions and their loot. It is possible that certain smuggled cargo could be (a) loot-worthy item(s) unavailable elsewhere. This is awesome. However the idea was expanded to include the possibility that renegging on smuggling contracts might occassionally be necessary in order to obtain components or schematics for crafting spices. On behalf of pure logic, precedents in the EU, and all smugglers who currently earn their living on the spice market, I would like to say "bogus!!" Sure, make this one possible avenue for the acquisition of such components, but leave another, albeit less convenient, avenue open to those who wish to take a more "legitimate" approach to spice dealing.
Let's look at this logically and see how this can fit into the game:
First you've got your standard missions where you're working under the employ of a crime lord. They barter the exchange, set the terms, provide the cargo, all you're really being hired to do is deliver it and return with the payment. However it is not uncommon in EU or in real life for a Smuggler to take up self-employment. In this case the Smuggler tracks down somebody who is supplying an illegal good, then retrieves it for himself to then turn around and sell at a profit. Thus there should always be some avenue for a smuggler to get these same components (or possibly ones of an equivelant function but lower quality) without risking visibility or suffering faction penalties.
On failure to slice BH terminals causing an instant bounty, who, as a smuggler, would ever be willing to slice for the mere curiosity of gauging one's own current level of visibility, let alone for another person. Rather, this should cause yet another slight increase in visibility, which could then cummulatively lead to that bounty.
Finally, a note on Visibility and Scanning crews causing combat that might cause a TEF and involuntary PvP:
Again, not directly related to the Smuggler, but relevant.
For the latter, this seems the obvious role for the Scanning Crew (remember them from ANH?). On discovery of a sufficiently illegal item, the Scanning Crew will call for reinforcements, spawning an impossing security force of an even match difficulty to the perpetrator and his or her group. These NPCs may or may not appear like factioned NPCs, and the specific models used may depend on what city or planet you're at. In any case, these NPCs will be strictly non-factioned and will only TEF to the perpetrator and his or her group.
You also should retain the system of fines and add the possiblity of confiscation, particularly for lower-grade infractions. Para-legal items should impose fines (automatically deducted) while illegal items impose fines and demand confiscation. You may refuse confiscation to opt for a fight instead, that's your choice. Highly illegal items (including military-grade weaponry such as most Commando weapons) will go straight to combat. In any case, combat earns theplayer some Visibility. Bounty Hunters are given some allowance for carrying illegal weaponry and armor, with more leniency being given to Imperial Bounty Hunters. Similarly, Imperials are given general leniency with certain types of illegal items like weaponry and armor, but none with others (unless above a certain rank and the item is only para-legal). Every item should be given a legalitycode in its description consisting of a letter and a number between 0 and 3, a category and severity of illegallity. The category is the type of item it is (some classes may have warrant to carry certain types of illegal items, but not others, up to a certain level. For example, Doctors, Combat Medics, and Bio Engineers, respectable educated professionals that they are, should be able to cary around para-legal and possibly illegal (but nothighly illegal)food, chemical, spice, and medicine items, because they, in effect, have a permit to use these responsibly by their profession. This categorization will allow a way to let characters who logically should be able to carry otherwise illegal items (like imperials carrying military grade weaponry) without allowing them to carry all illegal items.
As for players who don't wish to be involuntarilly involved in PvP by accruing visibility and getting a BH contract against them: don't carry illegal items. The idea that only Smugglers be added to the Visibility system for player BH targets is absurd. Everyone can make choices to either take arisk or completely avoid the system by avoiding situations (like carrying illegal weaponry or takingcertain smuggling missions or actions) which risk Visibility. Further, there's enough lee-way in the system that if you don't want to get into PvP with a Bounty Hunter, but take a few bad risks and get some Visibility, you can go "whoops" and play it safe for a little while until your visibility goes back down.
With that I conclude by requesting discussion.
CorellianCowboy
Wed Sep 29, 2004 4:55 am
#2
Publish 11 will not be the Smuggler Revamp. As the article says, it will be the Combat Balance.
YamadaMan
Wed Sep 29, 2004 5:01 am
#3
smuggler revamp will probably be around publish 85 or maybe 87 depending if they'll revamp jedis before, making em unhittable with 2xp points requirements per skill box, and making em able to track BH or any other player for 50k frs xp per kill, without using the droids or any terminal, and the ability to create a jedi character when you start the game.
SMUGGLER REVAMP WILL NOT HAPPEN, get used to it.
but I'm still wearing my title, beign proud of it.
SMUGGLER REVAMP WILL NOT HAPPEN, get used to it.
but I'm still wearing my title, beign proud of it.
BigLands
Wed Sep 29, 2004 5:03 am
#4
I think your post was well thought out and reasoned, but the Statics page you looked at to draw your original information is now at least 6 months old.
I suspect it will be another 6 months at least before we see a Smuggler revamp.
From past experience, thechance of the Devs sticking to a plan regarding smugglersfor longer than six weeks is almost non-existant.
Thus, I think we can expect a document outlining the ACTUAL smuggler revamp, for real, in about 5 months time.
I think it's great that we still see constructive posts like this, but I'm increasingly of the opinion we're wasting our time. We've had NO FIXES whatsoever for more than a year. We've had at numerous minor and major nerfs, with no explanation and no action taken to sort them out.
Simply put, we're not a priority, we haven't been a priority and I can't ever see us being a priority.
I'm open to anyone who can justify another view - but I'd be very suprised to see it.
YamadaMan
Wed Sep 29, 2004 5:30 am
#5
BigLands wrote:I think your post was well thought out and reasoned, but the Statics page you looked at to draw your original information is now at least 6 months old.I suspect it will be another 6 months at least before we see a Smuggler revamp.From past experience, the chance of the Devs sticking to a plan regarding smugglers for longer than six weeks is almost non-existant.Thus, I think we can expect a document outlining the ACTUAL smuggler revamp, for real, in about 5 months time.I think it's great that we still see constructive posts like this, but I'm increasingly of the opinion we're wasting our time. We've had NO FIXES whatsoever for more than a year. We've had at numerous minor and major nerfs, with no explanation and no action taken to sort them out.Simply put, we're not a priority, we haven't been a priority and I can't ever see us being a priority.I'm open to anyone who can justify another view - but I'd be very suprised to see it.
I think I was abit rude, my apologies.
I have faith in SOE, don't get me wrong to this, I love the game and don't see major issues playing a smuggler as it opened doors of roleplaying for me, and i like RPing a "border line" toon. not to mentiont that smuggler is my income basis since months and I get VERY cool money out of slicing and reselling.
there's a simple reason why we're not getting our revamp, I'm in SWG since last november, and I start to know how SOE works, and the reason why we're not getting our revamp anytime soon is because we do it the "wrong way". well actually we're doing it the only right way, but it's not the way it works.
here are my points:
1 - everytime we got our revamp delayed, we took it in a good way, thinking/saying that we'd be happy if they put more time/effort in our revamp, as they promise every time they delay it.
2 - we're too few now that most of us left either the game or the profession, our voices/community are too small, compared to the hord of jedi/wannabe jedi who post a whining message like every 2 minutes (I wish I get a buck, or even half a buck every time a whining from a jedi/wannabe jedi is posted, I'd be uber rich by now)
3 - it's sad but true as a fact. the louder a community whines, the faster it gets a revamp. we smugglers are NOT whiners, we do not post loads of messages on every forum saying how bad we feel and how useless we're slowly becoming. if the fencers (for example) whine loud enough, they might even get the ability to slice their own weapons. (ok it's abusive but it's an example).
4 - we put NO pressure on SOE, and by now, we're too few to do it. Most fighters whine for a CB, they'll get it, take it as a fact, the fighter's community is the youngest community, they're used to whine to get everything they want, so that's what they do. SOE takes whines too seriously, and -don't get me wrong I love the game, and I'm having fun playing it- that'll lead SWG to it's end, sooner or later, cause they don't have a line to follow, they just listen to the loudest whiners and give em what they want asap, instead of sticking to what they planned, I'm starting to thing that they might not have a plan, besides JTLS release. their actions are just so in contradiction with each other, jedi is the best example, they were said to be rare, hard to get, and now they almost put a user manual on "how to get a jedi toon", they said they nerfed CH cause of the upcoming Combat Revamp, wich was planned in early 2004, we're almost in october. they said smugglers was an important profession in SWG, we're nearly useless if not for our slicing skills that gets worse in every publish etc.. etc..
again, I love the game, I respect SOE for the job they do. but I don't agree with their philosophy. listening to the loudest whiners is NOT the solution, let the whiners whine and go, and stick to a GREAT, mid/long term plan, to provide EVERYONE a GREAT, AWESOME GAME, listening ot whiners is screwing the game's potential, making a plan and sticking to it will make em lose a few custommers, but we'll end up with SWG using all it's potential, at the end.
Dustin_Asche
Wed Sep 29, 2004 1:12 pm
#6
Thanks for catching me, CorellianCowboy. You're right, Combat Balance is publish 11, the Smuggler Revamp is slated for the following major publish, but Smugglers do get some attention in publish 11 (the refitting of their dirty fighting tree is supposedly part of theCB from what I've heard).
I wouldn't say that we'll never get the Smuggler revamp, although the attention to the Beta and the release of JTL is delaying the next two sorely needed revamps somewhat (by about as much as if it were a publish itself, though, so fairly little considering). SOE has been fairly dutiful so far about releasing broad and (mostly) effective upgrades, revamps and extensions of the base game, considering that they're doing it all for no additional charge in order to fullfill the promises they set forth (oh yeah, and to string along and placate a weary and fickle playerbase to keep them from quitting the game), as well as systematically hammering out any remaining bugs from old systems and any cropping up from newones. With JTL slated for later this month / next month, I would expect to see the combat rebalance finished up and implimented by december/january and the smuggler revamp slipped in by february at the latest.
PhoenixOrion
Wed Sep 29, 2004 1:22 pm
#7
Yeah...they'll probably break all our specials in the DF tree in the Combat Revamp and never fix THOSE either.
*sigh*
Dustin_Asche
Mon Nov 01, 2004 9:45 pm
#8
The main point I make about the smuggler's detection defense is applicable to other skills. By large, active skills are more fun than passive bonuses. While passive skills are convenient in that they are "always on" and don't require attention, and they are easier for developers to program, they tend to be less powerful (to balance their "always-on" nature) and less engaging for gameplay. In the end, a blend of both passive and active skills is best.
imodi
Tue Nov 02, 2004 9:12 am
#9
Just a thought from a novice training up to master;
regarding NPC smuggling missions, how about either a faction or rating based system, you sucessfully achieve the mission within set time frame, and you get points. you start on a very basic level, and as you succeed in smuggling, you recieve points that will allow more difficult and lucrative missions to be aquired. Obviously if you fail the mission, (get detected or your late) then you lose points (more for fail than late, at least they get it in the end) and thus go back down the ladder.
would act as a reputation scale, you have a very good reputation, you get the lucrative and challenging missions. if its very poor then you have to do simpler and less rewarding missions.
and finally the higher level missions could come with bounty threats, fail and a bounty will be placed on your head.
Just my ideas, would expect it to be easier to impliment than a live system on smuggling for the public, and would still provide some challenge, cash reward (instead of doing mokk/janta missions AGAIN!!!) and good potential for RP.
optimistically smiling as always, although its starting to hurt now 
imodi
silversaber
Tue Nov 02, 2004 10:52 am
#10
YamadaMan wrote:
BigLands wrote:
I think your post was well thought out and reasoned, but the Statics page you looked at to draw your original information is now at least 6 months old.
I suspect it will be another 6 months at least before we see a Smuggler revamp.
From past experience, the chance of the Devs sticking to a plan regarding smugglers for longer than six weeks is almost non-existant.
Thus, I think we can expect a document outlining the ACTUAL smuggler revamp, for real, in about 5 months time.
I think it's great that we still see constructive posts like this, but I'm increasingly of the opinion we're wasting our time. We've had NO FIXES whatsoever for more than a year. We've had at numerous minor and major nerfs, with no explanation and no action taken to sort them out.
Simply put, we're not a priority, we haven't been a priority and I can't ever see us being a priority.
I'm open to anyone who can justify another view - but I'd be very suprised to see it.
I think I was abit rude, my apologies.
I have faith in SOE, don't get me wrong to this, I love the game and don't see major issues playing a smuggler as it opened doors of roleplaying for me, and i like RPing a "border line" toon. not to mentiont that smuggler is my income basis since months and I get VERY cool money out of slicing and reselling.
there's a simple reason why we're not getting our revamp, I'm in SWG since last november, and I start to know how SOE works, and the reason why we're not getting our revamp anytime soon is because we do it the "wrong way". well actually we're doing it the only right way, but it's not the way it works.
here are my points:
1 - everytime we got our revamp delayed, we took it in a good way, thinking/saying that we'd be happy if they put more time/effort in our revamp, as they promise every time they delay it.
2 - we're too few now that most of us left either the game or the profession, our voices/community are too small, compared to the hord of jedi/wannabe jedi who post a whining message like every 2 minutes (I wish I get a buck, or even half a buck every time a whining from a jedi/wannabe jedi is posted, I'd be uber rich by now)
3 - it's sad but true as a fact. the louder a community whines, the faster it gets a revamp. we smugglers are NOT whiners, we do not post loads of messages on every forum saying how bad we feel and how useless we're slowly becoming. if the fencers (for example) whine loud enough, they might even get the ability to slice their own weapons. (ok it's abusive but it's an example).
4 - we put NO pressure on SOE, and by now, we're too few to do it. Most fighters whine for a CB, they'll get it, take it as a fact, the fighter's community is the youngest community, they're used to whine to get everything they want, so that's what they do. SOE takes whines too seriously, and -don't get me wrong I love the game, and I'm having fun playing it- that'll lead SWG to it's end, sooner or later, cause they don't have a line to follow, they just listen to the loudest whiners and give em what they want asap, instead of sticking to what they planned, I'm starting to thing that they might not have a plan, besides JTLS release. their actions are just so in contradiction with each other, jedi is the best example, they were said to be rare, hard to get, and now they almost put a user manual on "how to get a jedi toon", they said they nerfed CH cause of the upcoming Combat Revamp, wich was planned in early 2004, we're almost in october. they said smugglers was an important profession in SWG, we're nearly useless if not for our slicing skills that gets worse in every publish etc.. etc..
again, I love the game, I respect SOE for the job they do. but I don't agree with their philosophy. listening to the loudest whiners is NOT the solution, let the whiners whine and go, and stick to a GREAT, mid/long term plan, to provide EVERYONE a GREAT, AWESOME GAME, listening ot whiners is screwing the game's potential, making a plan and sticking to it will make em lose a few custommers, but we'll end up with SWG using all it's potential, at the end.
QFE
maloso
Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:58 pm
#11
Sorry you wasted your time. Good ideas like the many others before you. Maybe SOE can give ya some ignore time for your troubles
Achilean
Fri Nov 05, 2004 4:57 pm
#13
I wouldnt be surprised if the push the GCW revamp out before the Smuggler Revamp... sigh. Tell you the truth I wouldnt care if they ever touch the proffession at all if they gave us an Underworld faction and some Smuggler like content to work with. No need to revamp the class to just give us something to friggin smuggle.
Page 1 of 2