Smuggler Archive
Thread: [POLL] Now that we're talking revamp again ...
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IndySWG
Sun Mar 20, 2005 3:58 pm
#1
Many of you know me - I've been around forever - but many of you don't, and I haven't been posting lately so let me give you a quick note about me before I begin:
I'm a Master Smuggler and have been for ... well a really long time. My Smuggler is a Master Musician as well; I love the character for his RP ability, but LONG for the day "Smuggler" is more than just a title. I have a Master Merchant/Weaponsmith alt (who I hate and one day will re-roll if the economy of the game is ever a bit more balanced). I have a Jedi (who I haven't played in what seems like a decade). I have a Master Doctor/Swordsman alt who was my first and oldest character ... named after the character I played when SWG was in beta. My Doctor toon I once considered my main ... but all of my characters have become "alts" to the Smuggler - even though their professions 'work' and his doesn't. The Smuggler is my main, my favorite, the one most in need of Dev love.
Anyway, I make this post as someone who has been around forever, who has a good feel for how the many professions do/don't/should-please-God-one-day-please interact, but most importantly I make this post as a Master Smuggler ... just one with a good and long standing insight to many other professions.
(I'll also admit to being slightly biased on this topic, but I'll try to fairly hit all the viewpoints.)
Ok ... so .... there has been alot of talk lately (sometimes quite heated debate) about the "What should we do about contraband on vendors" question -- and I wanted to make a post here to try and summarize the various view points that have tried to be heard amongst the noise of arguments.
The really good news is that the heated debate comes when we talk about ways to implement what we otherwise all seem to agree on.
We all agree that:
Contraband needs to be illegal. It needs to be moved on the black market not at the corner store (especially since individuals with much smaller quantities than a vendor are expected to be fined/punished). We agree that contraband should be the realm of The Smuggler.
Contraband needs to be illegal. It needs to be moved on the black market not at the corner store (especially since individuals with much smaller quantities than a vendor are expected to be fined/punished). We agree that contraband should be the realm of The Smuggler.
We just seem to get hung up on ways to make that happen.
Some opinions options put forward to date are:
- Do nothing.
- This is good because it does not force any hardship to players
- This is bad because it severely limits both current and future smuggler content.
- This is also bad because ... well ... it just doesn't make any sense at all (and I can say that in full agreement from my master merchant side).
- Remove the ability for Merchants to put contraband on vendors.
- This is a good thing because then people would need to find a Smuggler if they wanted to deal with contraband and the black market.
- This is a good thing because it could be implimented fairly quickly.
- This is a bad thing because it implements a severe limitation to the Merchant profession without giving that profession a preferred way to interact with the Smuggler and his black market.
- This in practice isn't likely to work all that well as Merchants will find ways around it to at least some degree (selling a chance cubes named "XXX Damage Sliced T21" and then exchange for example) and without a more meaningful way to interact with the black market, merchant surely will look for these sorts of loop holes.
- Make a contraband-enabled vendor that only Smugglers can place - if Merchants want to deal on the black market, they can, but they'll need to invest the skill points into smuggler to do so.
- This is a good thing because it makes contraband the realm of The Smuggler and allows for a merchant to make the choice as to if the skill point investment is worth it to them. (There's nothing wrong with telling people "if you want to do smuggler stuff you need to have smuggler skills.)
- This is bad, however, because it does not inspire interaction between professions (it instead inspires just becoming that profession). Some would argue that a more immersive solution would include ways for a merchant to work with a smuggler (providing player driven content for each profession) rather than the merchantsjust picking up the skills themselves.
- This is also bad because it takes one of the DEFINING aspects of the merchant profession (vendors) and gives it to another profession. Worse it gives a more functional vendor to someone who doesn't even have artisan business 3. Some would argue that a better solution could be found that would increase the value of the skill boxes for all professions involved - not lessen them.
- Implement a fine or PC bounty system for Merchants getting caught selling contraband.
- This is good because it allows merchants to continue selling whatever they like ... but it severely punishes them for selling illegal materials.
- This is a bad thing because no fine is likely to be a real hardship on serious crafters in this game.
- This is bad because Merchants are not balanced for combat and thus their profession shouldn't be able to risk them into PvP.
- This is also bad because the DEVs have pretty much said that PC bounties outside of the Jedi system are not likely to happen anytime soon.
- Brand New implementation of how vendors work. -This is one of many possible solutions (none of which are fully envisioned yet), that allow for contraband on vendors - but require a smuggler to be involved with the process - providing profession interaction, player driven content, and a new source of income for the smuggler.
- This is a good thing because it allows for a Merchant to sell contraband - so long as he is doing so with/through/via/or otherwise in association with a Smuggler.
- This is a good thing because contraband is made the realm of The Smuggler. (Merchants will not be able to deal on the black market without the aid of a smuggler)
- This is a good thing because it inspires player/profession interaction.
- This is a good thing because itallows forplayer driven content.
- This is a good thing because it allows for a new line of income for the Smuggler.
- This is a good thing because it ADDS value to the Merchant skill boxes rather than removes value from them (the merchant's ability to deal with smugglers and the black market could increase as the merchant skills up) -- all while moving the control of contraband to the Smuggler profession.
- This is a good thing because it ADDS value to the Smuggler tree (the smugglers ability and bandwidth to work with merchants could increase as the smuggler levels up).
- This is a bad thing because it would bemuch more difficult to implement than the others. (Although I for one put this into the "That's the DEV's problem not ours" category - just because something is harder doesn't mean it's not the right thing.)
So now that we have had the discussion, and the options have been put out there, I would ask for a more in depth poll as to the more complete / long term desire of The Smuggler.
Given these choices would you rather:
A) Do nothing
B) Remove the ability for Merchants to put contraband on vendors
C) Make a contraband-enabled vendor that only Smugglers can place
D) Implement a fine or PC bounty system for Merchants getting caught selling contraband on a vendor
E) Ask the DEVs to develop a brand new implementation of how vendors work - allowing for contraband sales only when a smuggler is involved.
If you vote E, please feel free to post some basic ideas of what you would want to see in this system (My idea is listed (again) in the post below).
ValiantHalibut
Sun Mar 20, 2005 5:44 pm
#2
Why not invert the system so to speak? The merchent sets up the vendor and allows the smuggler access to it via your area of influence idea. Then, only the smuggler can place sliced goods or spice on it, and they split the profits 60/40 - in favor of the smuggler, of course. Also, the smuggler can only place their own goods on the vendor, not goods sliced or crafted by a different smuggler. The merchant, of course, can place non-contraband items on the vendor.
Edit: you're -> your
Edit: you're -> your
Message Edited by ValiantHalibut on 03-20-2005 05:47 PM
JediArashi
Sun Mar 20, 2005 8:38 pm
#3
I vote for E as well.
I think it is imperitive for the devs to find a programming solution to this issue, and not take an easy out. With such an abvious chance to make amends for the Imperial Letdown, as well as just to capitolize on an oppurtunity to add something dynamic.
I like some of your idea Indy, and definitley the spirit, but have just one thing that bothers me. No direct smuggler interaction. I mean, yes a Smuggler would have to gain trust and favor with the merchant, but thats about it. As much asI like easy money, a quick kick-back for letting someone use your name doesn't make for a whole lot of smuggler content.
How many merchants do you know thathave alts? A lot! How many have alts that are Smugglers? Quite a few. How many that sell sliced equipment know a smuggler well already if not a guildie or alt? Just about all of them. I would imagine that on day one of implementation all of the merchants worth their salt would have a smuggler already listed with no hope of anyone else competing.
If we can come up with a way that involves the smuggler more, I would be in favor of that. Or if there is a solution for the issue I layed out, I would also support it. Granted...I don't have such solutiions right now...but I haven't thought about it a whole lot yet.
PS - I hate talking about the negative side of someones ideas without offering a solution or variation...but Ican't think right now, so please accept my apologies.
IndySWG
Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:13 am
#4
Yeah, you're right that is a weakness for my idea.
JediArashi wrote:
I vote for E as well.
I think it is imperitive for the devs to find a programming solution to this issue, and not take an easy out. With such an abvious chance to make amends for the Imperial Letdown, as well as just to capitolize on an oppurtunity to add something dynamic.
I like some of your idea Indy, and definitley the spirit, but have just one thing that bothers me. No direct smuggler interaction. I mean, yes a Smuggler would have to gain trust and favor with the merchant, but thats about it. As much asI like easy money, a quick kick-back for letting someone use your name doesn't make for a whole lot of smuggler content.
...{snip}....
If we can come up with a way that involves the smuggler more, I would be in favor of that. Or if there is a solution for the issue I layed out, I would also support it. Granted...I don't have such solutiions right now...but I haven't thought about it a whole lot yet.
PS - I hate talking about the negative side of someones ideas without offering a solution or variation...but Ican't think right now, so please accept my apologies.
But I don't think any option-E-solution is gonna be right on target until a serious option E discussion is had. Still,it's not a bad starting point if you ask me for talks on how we can dream up the best solution. It would be great if we could develop the idea into one with more player-player interaction.
/shrug ... I just wish we'd come up with that perfect world solution - have that discussion - and then let the DEVs wind it back (not us), rather than us limit our vision and START OUT byasking for the fastest / least complete solution.
WillburWright
Mon Mar 21, 2005 2:45 pm
#5
***** Stamp of approval
I like a combo of D and E. The merchant'll get fined, but a fast-talking smuggler may get out of , or never into trouble.
IndySWG
Tue Mar 22, 2005 7:13 am
#6
Thanks, Willbur.
My origional idea (the 2nd post in this thread is an alteration of it) included fines and PC bounties as well, but the DEVs have said that's not likely to be an option. :-(
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