Smuggler Archive

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deadnewbie wrote:

I think you're going in the right direction in general. I have a few suggestions. Taxation: The scan can be done randomly. There's nothing that says we have to scan everyone at every starport. However, a 1 in 10 likelihood of a scan could be done without too much lag I'd imagine.

I agree that not everybody should be scanned, but maybe 1 in 10 is too low. I'd like there to be a sufficiently high amount of scans to dissuade people from always trying to sneak contraband/taxable items through customs. Oh, and FYI, the numbers I set up before - ~75% at starports, ~20% at shuttles/gates, and ~5% elsewhere - those are the percentage of EXISTING scans. I don't expect 75% of people passing through starports should be scanned, just that 75% of total scans in the game should happen at starports.

One thing we should think about is what happens if you can't pay the tarriff. Perhaps a negative balance thing with the Intergalactic Bank where future missions or sales would be diverted until the balance is paid off. Think of it as a lien.

Anyway, glad to see you back again, deadnewbie, and keep the comments coming.

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Smuggler_Caylin wrote:

Looks nice, just want to show this to you though.

Thunderheart:
"For instance, lets say Imperials do a search for contraband at starports. Can you imagine the lag if we even did an item check for everything inevery player's inventory as they entered and exited a starport?"

So this basically means scanning at starports for contraband materials is out.

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US Custom officials do not inspect every shipping container .. it is random container ... We could do the same in SWG ... start heavy ... and lower it to fix lag. (Start high so people realize it is there)

Hehe half of this thread is pre-crackdown. So yah, I know what you are saying, but we still run a risk of every item going through a server bottleneck.

Message Edited by Smuggler_Caylin on 04-07-2004 12:34 AM

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electricnomad wrote:

ROGUE (Dirty Fighting)

Feign Death overhaul
--should be put on a timer and made unspammable(perhaps 1 minute after standing up fromits last use would work well)
--should have a check in order to maintain its effectiveness (perhaps every 30 seconds, with failure making you attackable again and visible to aggro enemies)

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This is the only part I disagree with

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Geevo wrote:

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electricnomad wrote:

ROGUE (Dirty Fighting)

Feign Death overhaul
--should be put on a timer and made unspammable(perhaps 1 minute after standing up fromits last use would work well)
--should have a check in order to maintain its effectiveness (perhaps every 30 seconds, with failure making you attackable again and visible to aggro enemies)

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This is the only part I disagree with

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I've never thought it was particularly realistic to constantly keep standing up and falling down to pretend you're dead. It doesn't work whenI watch "Friday the 13th," and it shouldn't work here. There needs to be a timer for FD - nobody can credibly keep dropping "dead" and have a target believe that it really happened, finally, after 10 instances where someone pops up 2 seconds after hitting the ground. At a certain point, people would just dump gasoline on you and burn you to death to make sure you were really dead.

So I see a timer as a nice way to prevent the unrealistic use of FD. Furthermore, from a PVP standpoint,I think it's unfair that people can indefinitely lay there "dead" and safe for hours.I don't see the problem in forcing a re-check on your FD skills - if you're skilled, you should be able to lay around "dead" for a long time, while newer Smugglers will have a tough time remaining invulnerable, as they should have. I think that people who are FDing shouldregister asa corpse, offer no FP (at higher levels), and beinvulnerable to attack rather than get their HAM blackbarred. The proper tradeoff in my mind is that a waiting enemy might eventually get a free shot if and when when the FD breaks. It's a gamble, as most things should be - you're betting that your FD will hold, and a lurker is betting that you're not really dead and is waiting for you to twitch.

If that line of thinking doesn't persuade you that FD needs an overhaul, consider this:

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=dev_archive&message.id=31582&highlight=jedi+character#M31582

I can't find the thread where Thunderheart directly stated it, but he references it there. Basically, Jedi will soon apparently have regular skillpoints in addition to their Jedi abilities.

So let me ask you this:

What do Jedi fear most of all? Death.

What does FD allow you to do? Absolutely prevent adeathblow.

What would you do as a Jedi/Rogue if you were in danger of death? I would FD.

What would you do next? Personally, I'd send tells to a gang of friends to come rescue me, then group with them as they arrived and let them enjoy TEFs on my waiting attackers.

In fact, using FD and the group TEF, a Jedi/Rogue with a regular hunting group could (and probably would) just drop to the ground and FD at the slightest sign of trouble and let his friends handle the fights. They'd use the invulnerable cocoon of FD in order to prevent any deaths whatsoever, and the group TEF to help wipe out any enemies that tried to wait for them to pop up.

So that's my line of thought on why FD can and should be changed. FD needs to be simultaneously enhanced and restricted. I just don't believe that it's meant to be a gateway to invulnerability, but it should definitely be more effective than it it now.

need a new effect for "fingerbreak" as smugglers already have intimidate and don't need another version of it.

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electricnomad wrote:

Defense, I just like for the idea of having shady characters develop immunities to shady substances (I keep thinking of "The Princess Bride," where the Smuggler-ish hero built up total immunity to a deadly poison), plus I like the idea that nobody else in the game has such a defense.

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I love that film!!!

Ahem.. Anyway, not very constructive or helpful, but I thought everything you posted was great. If that was the patch notes for the smuggling publish I, and I suspect many others, would be very happy and contentindeed.

Brand new to smuggler, but I wanted to comment and say that I love the idea of being able to take multiple spices at once(massive downer) it would really improve demand for spice. Would definetly allow smugglers spiceto complete with chef foods.

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electricnomad wrote:

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Geevo wrote:

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electricnomad wrote:

ROGUE (Dirty Fighting)

Feign Death overhaul
--should be put on a timer and made unspammable (perhaps 1 minute after standing up from its last use would work well)
--should have a check in order to maintain its effectiveness (perhaps every 30 seconds, with failure making you attackable again and visible to aggro enemies)

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This is the only part I disagree with

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I've never thought it was particularly realistic to constantly keep standing up and falling down to pretend you're dead. It doesn't work when I watch "Friday the 13th," and it shouldn't work here. There needs to be a timer for FD - nobody can credibly keep dropping "dead" and have a target believe that it really happened, finally, after 10 instances where someone pops up 2 seconds after hitting the ground. At a certain point, people would just dump gasoline on you and burn you to death to make sure you were really dead.

So I see a timer as a nice way to prevent the unrealistic use of FD. Furthermore, from a PVP standpoint, I think it's unfair that people can indefinitely lay there "dead" and safe for hours. I don't see the problem in forcing a re-check on your FD skills - if you're skilled, you should be able to lay around "dead" for a long time, while newer Smugglers will have a tough time remaining invulnerable, as they should have. I think that people who are FDing should register as a corpse, offer no FP (at higher levels), and be invulnerable to attack rather than get their HAM blackbarred. The proper tradeoff in my mind is that a waiting enemy might eventually get a free shot if and when when the FD breaks. It's a gamble, as most things should be - you're betting that your FD will hold, and a lurker is betting that you're not really dead and is waiting for you to twitch.

If that line of thinking doesn't persuade you that FD needs an overhaul, consider this:

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=dev_archive&message.id=31582&highlight=jedi+character#M31582

I can't find the thread where Thunderheart directly stated it, but he references it there. Basically, Jedi will soon apparently have regular skillpoints in addition to their Jedi abilities.

So let me ask you this:

What do Jedi fear most of all? Death.

What does FD allow you to do? Absolutely prevent a deathblow.

What would you do as a Jedi/Rogue if you were in danger of death? I would FD.

What would you do next? Personally, I'd send tells to a gang of friends to come rescue me, then group with them as they arrived and let them enjoy TEFs on my waiting attackers.

In fact, using FD and the group TEF, a Jedi/Rogue with a regular hunting group could (and probably would) just drop to the ground and FD at the slightest sign of trouble and let his friends handle the fights. They'd use the invulnerable cocoon of FD in order to prevent any deaths whatsoever, and the group TEF to help wipe out any enemies that tried to wait for them to pop up.

So that's my line of thought on why FD can and should be changed. FD needs to be simultaneously enhanced and restricted. I just don't believe that it's meant to be a gateway to invulnerability, but it should definitely be more effective than it it now.

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Feign Death has a timer. When you feign death, you cannot feign again for 15 seconds or so, you must have noticed. Someone should time exactly how long it is. In pvp, I cannot think of a good scenatio where you can feign, get up and live to feign again while combat is still in process. 99% of the time you will be swarmed and black barred.

If it is your goal to extend that time, I don't see it changing anything, and personally feel it's not needed. For PvE you will still be able to feign again even it's something annoyingly long like an a few minutes. Only something over the top like an hour delay, like force of will has, would prevent this from changing.

For PvP, like I mentioned earlier, I can't think of a scenario where you can get up after you have feinged when combat is still going on. If your attackers have left or been defeated, sure. But that will probablly be after whatever extended timer you have in mind has expired, unless its changed to a hourly useage like FoW.

I think feign death works great as it is, the current timer makes you think ahead if you want to feign, and in pvp there is a consequence for doing so - your armor can be brough to zero and your ham will be black barred. Making it randomlly fail while feigned would remove the usefulness and fun factor of doing so. Your idea of having it get better as you go up the Dirty Fighting tree is also already in place - you must have noticed that it failed often with yoru first box of DF? People who grind the branches and don't play each box might not notice such things.

So in short, Feign Death works great, as is.

Awesome ideas nomad !! please you caylin and dev keep up all the good work (I know lots of others have written things up, but these guys kind of help bring all those ideas into one package, so ty to all who have put forward ideas, be they good,bad or ugly)

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electricnomad wrote:

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electricnomad wrote:

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Geevo wrote:

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electricnomad wrote:

ROGUE (Dirty Fighting)

Feign Death overhaul
--should be put on a timer and made unspammable (perhaps 1 minute after standing up from its last use would work well)
--should have a check in order to maintain its effectiveness (perhaps every 30 seconds, with failure making you attackable again and visible to aggro enemies)

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This is the only part I disagree with

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I've never thought it was particularly realistic to constantly keep standing up and falling down to pretend you're dead. It doesn't work when I watch "Friday the 13th," and it shouldn't work here. There needs to be a timer for FD - nobody can credibly keep dropping "dead" and have a target believe that it really happened, finally, after 10 instances where someone pops up 2 seconds after hitting the ground. At a certain point, people would just dump gasoline on you and burn you to death to make sure you were really dead.

So I see a timer as a nice way to prevent the unrealistic use of FD. Furthermore, from a PVP standpoint, I think it's unfair that people can indefinitely lay there "dead" and safe for hours. I don't see the problem in forcing a re-check on your FD skills - if you're skilled, you should be able to lay around "dead" for a long time, while newer Smugglers will have a tough time remaining invulnerable, as they should have. I think that people who are FDing should register as a corpse, offer no FP (at higher levels), and be invulnerable to attack rather than get their HAM blackbarred. The proper tradeoff in my mind is that a waiting enemy might eventually get a free shot if and when when the FD breaks. It's a gamble, as most things should be - you're betting that your FD will hold, and a lurker is betting that you're not really dead and is waiting for you to twitch.

If that line of thinking doesn't persuade you that FD needs an overhaul, consider this:

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=dev_archive&message.id=31582&highlight=jedi+character#M31582

I can't find the thread where Thunderheart directly stated it, but he references it there. Basically, Jedi will soon apparently have regular skillpoints in addition to their Jedi abilities.

So let me ask you this:

What do Jedi fear most of all? Death.

What does FD allow you to do? Absolutely prevent a deathblow.

What would you do as a Jedi/Rogue if you were in danger of death? I would FD.

What would you do next? Personally, I'd send tells to a gang of friends to come rescue me, then group with them as they arrived and let them enjoy TEFs on my waiting attackers.

In fact, using FD and the group TEF, a Jedi/Rogue with a regular hunting group could (and probably would) just drop to the ground and FD at the slightest sign of trouble and let his friends handle the fights. They'd use the invulnerable cocoon of FD in order to prevent any deaths whatsoever, and the group TEF to help wipe out any enemies that tried to wait for them to pop up.

So that's my line of thought on why FD can and should be changed. FD needs to be simultaneously enhanced and restricted. I just don't believe that it's meant to be a gateway to invulnerability, but it should definitely be more effective than it it now.

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I'd like to point out that this Feign Death section was written well before the two Jedi publishes, after which there was a lot of hot discussion on the Jedi, BH, and Smuggler forums about the use of FD. I think my previous fears were well-founded, and there still hasn't been an adequate solution to the problem of player bounties and FD.

It is a fact that FD will have to be addressed before any new, widespread system of player bounties is implemented. It would be a shame to see this useful skill nerfed out of existence, or recklessly tossed up into the Master box. I strongly favor a percentage approach to the skill, with improved chances of feigning as you climb the Dirty Figthing branch and Master box. I also favor a short post-stand-up timer added to prevent repeated spamming (at least take a few steps and then pretend to be dead again). And of course, other changes would be needed, such as making an FDing Smuggler unattackable, to negate FP loss on death, and to appear as an actual corpse, among other changes.

Even if those changes go into effect, BHs will need a way of finishing their missions, whether it's a legitimate chance of FD breaking at Master (maybe 2-5%, with a "reroll" every 10-20 seconds to see if the FD holds), a special BH "detect FD" skill in Investigation that gives them a percentage chance of noticing FD, or some counter-move. I think I prefer a mix of a self-terminating FD (meaning a legitimate percentage chance a Smuggler fails to FD) and an FD-detection skill for BHs (perhaps up to a 50% passive chance of noticing FD, "rerolled" every 30 seconds or so, which would allow the BH to start attacking again if the detection passes through the FD).

It is clear to me that FD as we knew it before will turn into history. I encourage everyone to start brainstorming ideas on how to change it into something interesting and useful, rather than wait for the Devs to come in and just destroy the skill. It needs a scalpel, not a chainsaw. But the Devs are fond of the chainsaws...

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Okay, here's my idea.

Rework Feign Death and the accompanying skill mod to work like creature levels, spread the skill mod *throughout* Smuggler, not just in the Dirty Fighting branch. First of all, the skill mod now determines how well you play dead, instead of the rare occasion that you fail to fall down and stop moving. Well, against NPCs, it should remain the same, players however, is where the mod actually means something. The higher the mod, the more likely you are to fool your opponent(well, techniclaly, his character) and those around you into believing your dead.

Now, lets say someone got only the Rogue line from Smuggler. Well, they'll only do about 25% as well as a Master would. A nice addon would be to make the character using Feign Death to appear like a corpse on the screen and the radar.

To balance this skill, add a skill and mod to Bounty Hunters, call it something like "Detection". Once a hunter sees the mark go down, he walks up, hits a radial on the body, and selects the "Detect" option. This runs a skill check against the Feign Death mod. Now, a Master Smuggler should be able to fool anyone but a Master Bounty Hunter, as the Smuggler's Feign Death mod and the Hunter's Detection mod should be equal(both skill mods cap at Master, and don't anyone dare suggest a food to temporarily increase either mod). When this situation occurs, and the skill checks are even, its basicly a coin toss to see who wins.

If the Smuggler wins the skill check, all TEFs are cleared, any missions on the Smuggler(if that ever does get implimented) by those around him are lost, but should still be able to be picked up again from a terminal.

If the Smuggler loses the skill check, Feign Death is removed, and the Smuggler is now considered Knocked Down, damage should be calculated as such. The Bounty Hunter can resume attacking while the Smuggler is still down, 'cause he knows now that the Smuggler is still alive.

To avoid the situation where a Hunter doesn't use Detect on a Smuggler, just to keep the TEF on the guy, I suggest that there be a time limit, say, ninety seconds, after which, the game automaticly awards the win of the skill check to the Smuggler using Feign Death and considers the Bounty Hunter fooled.

Jedi, should have a similar skill and skill mod in one of thier trees, maybe the Force Power skill tree, so that they could try and sence life within the Smuggler. Same rules apply here as well.

Now, to solve the problem of Jedi and Bounty Hunters from abusing Feign Death against each other, here are two sets of reasons for both of them to keep from using it.

When a Bounty Hunter is on a Bounty mission, and decides to Feign against the Jedi, then the following happens:
Bounty Hunter loses the mission.
Bounty Hunter cannot pick a mission for that character for a week.
TEF is cleared from both the Jedi and the Bounty Hunter.
Possible investigation xp loss.

When a Jedi is running about, is fighting a Bounty Hunter, or in a PvP engagement, and decides to Feign Death, the following happens:
Jedi looses xp equivilent to that when being incapacitated +25%
Bounty Hunter can use Detect on the Jedi, skill check follows per above, and having only Rogue should only be 25% full mod(no SEAs!).
If the Bounty Hunter looses the skill check, Bounty Hunter fails and loses the mission, but can still pick it back up from a terminal.
If the Bounty Hunter wins the skill check, he can continue to attack his target, damage will be delt as if opponent had been knocked down.