Smuggler Archive
Thread: FD/Evasion/DNA Death Sample 2.2 updated version!!
Ternque01 wrote:
I am going to be honest Yimaz. I really didn't read all of your suggestions here. I know I look like a dumb ass admiting that, but I assumed that this would be the typical /checkpulse idea with % modifiers. I really like these ideas alot; they are genuinely cool. (Now that I have read it)
I have added some comments on tweaks to these skills. Check it.
I will update the main post with your changes in a little while.
yimaz wrote:
I hate these threads as much as you all do, I ask that you please read over it before you one star me.
For The Bounty Hunters
Master Bounty Hunter Pulse Check:
"2 in the head to make sure you mark is dead" Bounty Hunters now have a skill where they can check the pulse of any player who FD's on them. This skill is granted at Bounty Hunter Investigation 2, and worksbest at Master Bounty Hunter. If pulse check fails the BH will see a message on screen that says "It would seem this player is dead". The concept is that a newer BH might not yet be smart enough to put two in the head, he checks the pulse thinks the smuggler is dead and moves on. Even still at investigation 2 it does have a vary good chance of working but muchmuchbetter at master (say 50%chance at invest 2 and up to 95%chance of success at master).
- What happens if the Pulse Check is successful? Does the BH get the deathblow? I know you introduce an active counter to Check Pulse later on as another skill, but I don't really see where you address the outcome of a successful CP (Check Pulse). - yes its the 2 shots to the back of the head concept. FD Strike gives you the option to lay there and die or FD Strike and have a shot at getting away. Pulse check has a small chance of failing but the whole point of FD in this system is it is a trick to get the BH close.
For the Smugglers
Feign Death
Nowin Dirty Fighting 1,FD would have % mods on it and the higher you go in the profession (dirty fighting line)the better it works with Master Smuggler having the skill work the best (success as it is now at master). FD would also be on a timer similar to FOW (a tka skill) in that the skill could only be used one time every 15min.A player who successfully FD's will now also beunattackable.
- 15 minutes is a little short. I think an hour is best. -agree
- If it were 15 minutes odds are that it would be used against the same enemy. Who would fall for that twice? - On this I say yes because you have a chance of the skill failing anyway, plus its a droid not a person you are fooling.
Master Smuggler Final Strike
Master Smugglers now have a Final Strike skill that is used when a Bounty Hunter comes over to check his/her pulse. When a smuggler is FD and a BH comes over to check his/her pulse a message will flash on the smugglers screen "A BH is checking your pulse, what do you want to do?" If you do nothing it is a very, verygood likely hood that you will be killed. If you use the Final Strike skill and it fails you die. Final Strike works as a punch or pistol shot to the BH's neck incaping him and giving the smuggler a chance to escape. There is a penalty for using this skill however and that is a 15secattack delay. The smuggler now has a choice, run and live or try and get a DB in after the delay andbefore the BH can get back up. (remember incap time will soon be much less then it is now).
So by your design, it is extremely foolish to FD in front of a MBH, even as a Master Smuggler. What a Master Smuggler WILL have is a means to protect themselves should they run into one. This is a good idea here. It makes FD an active and vibrant skill for the Master Smuggler. - right
The instant incap to the BH seems like a little much though. No skill should be able to take a player from full health to incap in one blow. If the move were a KD/15 second pin on the BH, this skill would be much more balanced. I think this pin should break on further damage to the BH, thus making this skill purely evasive. - yes your idea is much better, mixed with the vehicle comabt call (which would take 15sec) it becomes a true race against the clock.
I still can escape the coolness of this move if it had some teeth like you are suggesting though. - if you wanna fight the BH dont run start hitting the 15sec's buys time, remember Bh's are bad Mo'Fo's and tuff to go up against.
FD and FD Strike need to be last resort skills and fairly unaffective when3 or more players are involved. With that said a Smuggler needs other means of escape.
Smuggler Evasion Skills
Underworld 1, thesmuggler now gains a vehiclecall during combat skill, this is a risk because vehicles are easy to destroy but with timing a smart smuggler could pull a healthy vehicle and flee before anyone could kill the vehicle or the smuggler.
Underworld 2 grants a /masktracking droid skill, this skill masks a smuggler from tracking droids for 15min and can only be used once an hour. If a smuggler is being tracked by a BH a message will come up on the smugglers screen when the BH is close "your are being tracked by a BH" the logic being some underworld buddy of the smugglers would in fact let him know is was marked for death. The smuggler would use this skill and drop off the tracking droids search screen. BH's would receive a message saying "Your make has been lost from your droids search". This skill as a 50-50 chance of working. with a 75-25 chance at Underworld 3.
This is a good skill no doubt. I think completely disabling the droids is a bad idea. A better idea would be to scramble these droids' signals. A BH might know the general quadrant of a planet a smuggler is in. This way, a BH might actually have to look with their own eyes for awhile.
Another problem with this skill is that once a smuggler knows they are being hunted, they can just go hide in a house or just jump into space. Actually, this is a big problem.
I have a great solution. Let this skill be a passive skill that occurs without a smuggler knowing it. A smuggler would always hide their biosignature as much as they possibly can. They would have a proximity droid transmission scrambler cliped to their belts. Any tracking droid within their general area will have their transmissions altered. The result is that a BH's droids will always provide a waypoint, but those waypoints will be always at a random place no more than a certain radius around a smuggler's position. The higher a smuggler goes up the Underworld tree, the greater the radius of potential scattering. - wow did not even think of that. Ok, so make it appear like you are 50 or 100 meters away from where you are, again buying time.
This will ensure that Smugglers will not, indeed, be an easy hunt. Smugglers have a whole other dimension of making their missions challenging for BH's, even though they cannot fight as well as a Jedi... they can still save face techonologically to save their bacon. /agree
Underworld 4 grants Smugglers a /maskfaction skill. This skill masks a smuggler who is covert from NPC's and a Smuggler who is Overt drom opposing overt factions. Again it is a skill that lasts only 15min and can only be used once an hour. In regards to Overt players, while the smuggler would appear covert an enemycould still lock target and fire on said smuggler and visa-vera. This means any smart smuggler would need to hide his/her profession title to ovoid suspicion. again 50-50 chance of it working with 75-50 at master smuggler.
Wow, another really damn cool skill. I think this skill needs to not work while in combat. It could be used as an inbalancing easy out. Can you imagine fighting another smuggler, only to have them activate this skill to immediately break combat? - no see the skill is a mask like scout mask scent. It cant be used in combat, only before you are detected and it can fail.
It would be best to let this be used when a smuggler thinks it would be a wise time to avoid any unpleasant confrontations.
At master a Smuggler would be able to group with a Jedi or Faction player and use his /mask skills to help those players as well. Same rules would apply as masking only yourself.
Q&A
"What is the point of all of this if the smugglers never make it onto the BH terminals"
The CU is going to be designed to give individual professions a unique roll in large battles, with that said lets take just one scenario:
Large scale battle Reb's vs Imps, you have some smugglers, some BH's some rangers some TKA's, etc (you get the idea)...The reb's are down, while its been a tuff fight and lots of wounds on both sides all the rebels are down and appear dead. 3 BH's go and check the pulse of the4 Smugglers who seem to be dead. The first smuggler is killed, the BH cought the FD trick. The next 3 smugglers pull FD Strike and it works! Blaster fire rains down on them from the other imperials, they are weak and cant stay to fight. They call rides leave the BH's alone and try to make an escape. Two Smugglers lose their rides and are killed, one Smuggler escapes.
"Any BH who cant see that someone is faking his death is stupid we are paid killers"
I agree 100% with this which is why even at invest 2pulse checkhas a good chance at working but over all it should be a matter of training. A better trained Smuggler should be able to out smart a BHwho is not as welltrained in seeing past this dirty little smuggler trickand the same is true in reverse; a master killer would for sure see a less skilled smuggler was fakingdeath and try to kill him. First Strike gives Smugglers an choice, stay in FD and hope the BH cant see your faking at (and probably die) or try Final Strike and hope for the best. FD is now no longer a skill people use to escape a DB because over all if you don't use Final Stike your chances of living past pulse check are slim to none.
I thought Check Pulse was 95% effective as a MBH, regardless of a smuggler's ability to succeed in FD. At any measure, this system is still cool. - yes this one just happened to fail.
"How does this affect Jedi"
FD is for the most part not very reliable at dirty fighting 1 for this skill to work and work well you must be higher in the ranks of smuggler, this in turn requires much more skill points, making the skill over all worthless to anyone other then a high lvl smugglers. Lets say a Jedi does have FD 1 and it does happen to work, by defult a BH has a much, much, much better chance at breaking it with just invest 2 and as master or a high lvl BH the chance of pulse check ever failing against anyone with FD 1 is near impossible again make FD useless to Jedi.
Also think about Jedi who pick up the Underworld trees of smuggler in order to scramble the BH droids and mask their overt status. Should high level Jedi who are always perma overt be allowed to mask their overt status? Of course I personally do not want Jedi to be able to scrable droid signals, but if they invest the skillpoints in Underworld... more power to them. - to do this would really hurt their jedi temp making it pointless to maintain as they grew in power, plus the best bonus for all these skills would be at master. Higher lvl jedi I would think would reath use a smuggler then be a smuggler. And with your change to the tracking the mask skill would be good for us but even more pointless to jedi.
SpinningCloud wrote:
I'm a little unclear on when Smugglers would use this.
You're supposing that Smugglers will actually have SMUGGLING content and hence be on the BH terms? In that case the idea is great.
But it's kind of like putting the cart before the horse as far as I'm concerned.- We have talked about being added to the boards with mission/quests time and time again, that should just go with out saying. This thread deals with FD as an issue not the bigger picture.
If you think this is a useful tactic in a battlefield situation then I object...but then I object to BHs and Smugglers running around in a battlefield amoung the professional soldiers also. I have ALWAYS said that each profession should have advantages in various situations...not just skill advantages. BHs and Smugglers should have a decided disadvantage in a battlefield situation as they don't have the military training a commando or squad leader would have. Those two should excel in battlefield conditions but be at a disadvantage in one on one combat. - that wont happen smugglers use pistol skills BH use melee skills we all hybrid and therefore have a use in the battle field and a smuggler sneaking rebels past imps has not military importance huh??
I'm not sure FD has any place on a battlefield but I do like it as a way of avoiding a BH. - OMG your kidding right thats the reason people hat it and the worst part of the skill, your joking right, please say your joking. I've always thought FD against meat-eating predators was rather rediculous though I can see it working against a non-carnivoir protecting it's lair. It should definitley have it's effectiveness dependent upon the condition under which it is used. - hence my post did you read it or glaze over it?
yimaz wrote:
Why is this such an issue to you? ITS CALLED BEING FAIR AND BALANCED again for the bigger picture of fun and interaction it is really not some grand leap of faith. It's like your so into 2 shots and your dead you cant hear anything else even if it makes two professions more fun it does not matter to you.
Message Edited by yimaz on 02-04-2005 03:38 PM
Let me just issue this blanket apology to your employer "I'm sorry if I made Yimaz swear at the monitor and scare his coworkers!" 
What can I say - when it comes to leaps of faith - I'm an atheist!
I love your ideas man - i love the fact that you're willing to throw them on the table for all to comment on, positively or negatively. It shows guts, and I respect that.
With that said - you asked me "Why is this such a big issue to you" and man - I gotta ask you the same question!!
I'm all for making the game more fun - but how is it fun for the Bounty Hunter who has to spend droids to track down the smuggler, who runs across worlds to find the mark - then have the Smuggler FD - let's say it's a Master Bounty Hunter against a mid level Smuggler and the Gods are angry and gives the MBH an improbable fail on the dice roll. That's a heck of a lot of time the MBH has just wasted - is he having fun? You talk about Fair and Balanced - but I don't believe it is. The BH has to invest the time, the Smuggler, has to play dead and pray for a good dice roll.
Ultimately though we'll see what the CU brings us as I'm sure this will be addressed.
And Yimaz - having fun with the game is all that matters to me, despite your belief otherwise!
Cheers
Dat
Daturaze wrote:
yimaz wrote:
Why is this such an issue to you? ITS CALLED BEING FAIR AND BALANCED again for the bigger picture of fun and interaction it is really not some grand leap of faith. It's like your so into 2 shots and your dead you cant hear anything else even if it makes two professions more fun it does not matter to you.
Message Edited by yimaz on 02-04-2005 03:38 PM
Let me just issue this blanket apology to your employer "I'm sorry if I made Yimaz swear at the monitor and scare his coworkers!"
What can I say - when it comes to leaps of faith - I'm an atheist!
I love your ideas man - i love the fact that you're willing to throw them on the table for all to comment on, positively or negatively. It shows guts, and I respect that. - /bow
With that said - you asked me "Why is this such a big issue to you" and man - I gotta ask you the same question!! - pulse chheck is a way for BH's to break FD and smuggler to get out of FD.
I'm all for making the game more fun - but how is it fun for the Bounty Hunter who has to spend droids to track down the smuggler, who runs across worlds to find the mark - then have the Smuggler FD - let's say it's a Master Bounty Hunter against a mid level Smuggler and the Gods are angry and gives the MBH an improbable fail on the dice roll. That's a heck of a lot of time the MBH has just wasted - is he having fun? - its a hunt, when you go deer hunting do you always kill bambe? You talk about Fair and Balanced - but I don't believe it is. The BH has to invest the time, the Smuggler, has to play dead and pray for a good dice roll. - FD would be broken by pulse check something that cant be dont atm. Did you read my original post the whole way??
Ultimately though we'll see what the CU brings us as I'm sure this will be addressed. -/agree
And Yimaz - having fun with the game is all that matters to me, despite your belief otherwise!
Cheers
Dat
Per the above quote. Is this something that happens retroactively? I've been away from the game for about four months, and just this past week started up my character again. She's a smuggler, and I'll be getting master this weekend. However, I'm unable to call my vehicle in battles.
Could someone clarify for me whether this means in battle with a BH, or just in general, say with beasties or NPCs -- ?
Thanks for the help; I'm still trying to get caught up on the tweaks and changes that have been happening while I was gone.
Heather / AKA Adria Karan-Mosi
HCSelf wrote:
"Underworld 1, the smuggler now gains a vehicle call during combat skill, this is a risk because vehicles are easy to destroy but with timing a smart smuggler could pull a healthy vehicle and flee before anyone could kill the vehicle or the smuggler. "
Per the above quote. Is this something that happens retroactively? I've been away from the game for about four months, and just this past week started up my character again. She's a smuggler, and I'll be getting master this weekend. However, I'm unable to call my vehicle in battles.
Could someone clarify for me whether this means in battle with a BH, or just in general, say with beasties or NPCs -- ?
Thanks for the help; I'm still trying to get caught up on the tweaks and changes that have been happening while I was gone.
Heather / AKA Adria Karan-Mosi
Message Edited by smugglerorap on 02-04-2005 03:41 PM
NickHeel wrote:
How about we just rework the move all together to a "get out of Dodge" type thing. That way there's no "but I know you're playing dead" or stuff. - dodge mods should be added to dirty fighting for sure but not at the expence of FD
Such as a move that delays everyone around the Smuggler from attacking only the Smuggler for 20-25 seconds or just renders the Smuggler unattackable and enables the Smuggler to pull a vehicle instantly. It has a chance to fail, which is the counter. I dunno. If the other person remains in the combat state, they won't be able to follow you ona vehicle and you can get away. - I think that is more unrealistic then a BH check a pulse (realistic in a story line sense not code sense) To just become unattackable for 20 sec's seems like an easy way out (no offence).
I just hate the actual Feign Death skill in PvP. Even if the Final Strike thing works or whatever, what keeps the Bounty Hunter from camping you or following you on a bike if you do manage to get away? I think we need a dirty underhanded trick for PvP, but anything that leaves the BH/attacker in close proximity to the Smuggler or anything like that for the immersion factor. - N'jon Im not flaming ya (really) when I ask fi you really read the whole first post, I ask only becuase many battles Ive had over this today were people who glazed over it and after reading some were like oh ok it makes sense. I address your issue of immersion in the post
Bah. God I frackin' hate Feign Death posts. *shakes his head at Yimaz*
yimaz wrote:
NickHeel wrote:
How about we just rework the move all together to a "get out of Dodge" type thing. That way there's no "but I know you're playing dead" or stuff. - dodge mods should be added to dirty fighting for sure but not at the expence of FD
I really feel FD could have a strong and good use in PVP it just has to be set up right and fair to everyone.
Nothing to do with the Dodge skill from Fencer/Pistoleer. Like Dodge City..."get out of Dodge" or for the Monty Python fans, "Run away! Run away!".
I just think of Han or Lando or Dash. I never saw them play dead, wait for the BH to come up, then kick 'em in the nuts and grab the upper hand. While, dirty, low-down, cheesey, and cool that sounds....I don't see it as an "escape" move. (if it's a combat move to gain the upper hand, alright. I'm down like clown in downtown) However, in the get-away arena, I more often saw Han/Lando/Dash blasting wildly or taking shots that gave them cover fire to just get the heck out of there. Something like Panic Shot I guess, but the real skill having tricks to pull your vehicle, delaying the Smuggler/attacker, and use to just get away.
The counter for it would be a chance at failure. A true last ditch effort that would drain your specials pool and the recharge on it for a quite a while.