Smuggler Archive

Thread: Unarmed is Lame

ZeckAzuenden
Mon May 10, 2004 7:17 am
#14

Bout the only thing I agree with is the Unarmed in the Smuggler line, how much is it really used anyways. Does seem more appropriate to do the Artisan Business skills as a requirement instead, since smuggling is a business of sorts.



Zeck Ravenclaw
BH,day one player, Eclipse

RylanStorm
Mon May 10, 2004 8:52 am
#15


I can assure you tkm's are not overpowered as anything with good kinetic resists, ie 80% kinetic comp armor on my server, can stand up to them for a long time.


And your point is? Anything with 80% resists against the damage type used against it will prolong the longevity of that player exponentially but I still watched a guy wearing 80% kinetic get smashed by a TK in 3 hits the other day.


Please dont compare the swg universe to real life tactics. If people walked around in RL with bullet proof body armor then you would certainly find that at least at the unarmed level you could still "incapacitate" someone.


Oh no. Not this argument again.


Anytime you make any comparison whatsoever between real physics and those that are used in games somebody says you can't compare a game to real life.


The stock answer ( I should copy this down and repost it each time someone uses it ) is that whereas the game is based on a fictional universe there are simple laws of phyics which must exist to maintain plausability. If this is somehow untrue then I'd like my Small House to have double the capacity of my Guild Hall. After all it's only a game and you can't compare it to real life.


Pure unarmed damage is out of whack, and anyone who isn't a TK can appreciate that. It doesn't matter if you've been beaten by one, or if you've been outdamaged by one, it's pure common sense and it's why there are so many cries of nerf in the GCW forum.


I understand the idea behind the Teras Kasi and the role which they fulfilled. I understand the idea of drawing energy within and it does carry with it the justification for enhanced damage and speed. Getting hit in PvP for 800 damage by someone using their bare hands is so far beyond enhanced damage it's not true and it's counter-intuitive to the idea of reduced PvP damage.


Then factor in the PvE damage. I really wonder how much damage a person could do to something the size of a Krayt Dragon or Kimogilla with their fists and feet. I can tentatively understand that in unarmed combat you can break a humanoids arm, leg or neck, but it's difficult when taking about fully armoured humanoids. It's even harder to believe when talking about something the size of a bus.


There are about 31 professions out there that understand this concept. I'm out. This is about as productive as any other thread like this. Nobody is ever willing to accept if some skill they have is out of balance.





__________________________________________



Rylan Storm - Pistoleer

Master Smuggler

Rogue's Hideaway - Naboo - Sylvex


Eclipse Rocket Launcher and Proton Grenade Sale

__________________________________________


Mierra
Mon May 10, 2004 8:53 am
#16

i think the TKA prof is fine as it is. they may have higher damage, but it's a trade off in that they'll be the ones tanking and taking the blows. i know this. as well as that, while they're effective to a degree in pvp, they're certainly not one of the combat classes to worry about too much on the battlefield, what with the 80%+ suits of comp sold at a premium these days. they're kept well in check. i'd count TK to be one of the most balanced classes in the game.

as for justifying implied TK nerf requests with real world arguments, i think you should probably stand back a little and remember what it is you're talking about here. this is a computer game based on Star Wars. it is science fiction of the pulp variety. you don't need to explain anything in fantasy, everything just is.



...has mastered the Procrastinator profession.
...has witnessed theorb solo a jedi.
RylanStorm
Mon May 10, 2004 9:15 am
#17

Oof. Hate to see next the comments we'll get from the developers with that attitude.


Thunderheart : We have decided that the Smuggler profession is now fixed. We don't have to explain...it just is.




__________________________________________



Rylan Storm - Pistoleer

Master Smuggler

Rogue's Hideaway - Naboo - Sylvex


Eclipse Rocket Launcher and Proton Grenade Sale

__________________________________________


Mierra
Mon May 10, 2004 9:19 am
#18

taking a portion of a statement and using it out of context to prove.. well, something, isn't going to score you any points.



...has mastered the Procrastinator profession.
...has witnessed theorb solo a jedi.
RylanStorm
Mon May 10, 2004 9:24 am
#19

Actually I've explained my theory on why it's not unreasonable to compare a game to real life in about as much detail as I could care, I just wasn't aware that it was about scoring points.




__________________________________________



Rylan Storm - Pistoleer

Master Smuggler

Rogue's Hideaway - Naboo - Sylvex


Eclipse Rocket Launcher and Proton Grenade Sale

__________________________________________


Mierra
Mon May 10, 2004 9:36 am
#20

your theory is noted, and your theory is discarded.

yes there are elements of reality in fiction, because there is of course a need to remain within the constraints of what people consider as the norm in order to understand and enjoy what it is they're viewing/reading/playing/whatever.

if there is ever an MMORPG made based on the Planescape campaign setting for example, then yes, i would be quite disappointed if there were no small huts that weren't larger on the inside than they appeared.

in Star Wars, TKA are powerful. i suggest you deal with it.



...has mastered the Procrastinator profession.
...has witnessed theorb solo a jedi.
thrustfuzion
Mon May 10, 2004 9:40 am
#21

Yeah TKA's are susposed to be powerful. As far as the whole requirements for smuggler being unarmed, I am not quite convinced it makes a ton of sense. While bar fights and other areas is right, since we have no unarmed moves, it doesnt really work. Just my two cents though.



THrust Malco





I am a smuggler, not a missionary. Dont like what I do or how much I charge, get over it.
BloodMonk
Mon May 10, 2004 9:47 am
#22

You still haven't porsted you're professions, which would explain you you talk BS



I'm a TKM, Master Pistoleer Smuggler, and in PVP I rely on my Pistols 80% of the time, TK is pretty useless in pvp now



Taking down an armored person with 3 its? Lay off the crack pipe I'd say


800 damage in pvp with 1 hit? Was it a TKM vs; a nakednovice Artisan? otherwise it is not possible



If I get KD, without armor an UH3 only does about 30 to 50 damage, I fear no TK in PVP


TK is one of the professions which is about right, rifleman and CM are over the top, most other are under the norm, fencer is an exception, but only because they have a stun weapon (without it they also are A LOT less effective)


Having people with your attitude in game takes away the starwars feeling for me..If you can't hack it in pvp then learn some tactics, learn to play with whatever class you are



Proud Member of -BLOOD-

I HATE GRINDING)

"Invader's blood marches through my veins like giant radioactive rubber pants! The pants command me! Do not ignore my veins!"

Managing the Bloodmonks Weapon Facility (aka Sly's Slavepit), Producer of fine specialty weapons.
Mierra
Mon May 10, 2004 9:52 am
#23

im guessing the armoured person was unbuffed in which case three hits is quite possible. though of course unbuffed, he'd also fall in three hits with my geo, or 1 hit with someone's rifle. *shrug*



...has mastered the Procrastinator profession.
...has witnessed theorb solo a jedi.
EcadMistflier
Mon May 10, 2004 9:59 am
#24






zorkain wrote:

Unarmed combat should not be in SWG, and if it is, it should do considerable less damage than anyone who uses a weapon. Smugglers are supposed to be good with pistols, not unarmed BS. It makes no sense at all for someone to do as much or more damage without a weapon than someone who uses one. The smuggler revamp should take away unarmed, not add new unarmed skills. Unarmed takes away from the smugglers profession not to mention that it takes away from the whole star wars feel. Teras Kasi, Fencer, Pikeman, Swordsman, and Creature Handler, do not belong in Star Wars, also they could take out the whole brawler starting profession, in my opinion.They all ruin the whole Star Wars atmosphere. Lets hope that smugglers dont join that list when they do the revamp. I know that they will not remove these professions, but please whatever you do, dont add more unarmed crap to smugglers, it will ruin this profession. If anything give us back the business skills, like it was supposed to be, That makes a hell of a lot more sense than unarmed.






This has the foul stench of one who in bitter frustration lashes out at those who have in "ownage" prevailed upon him.



Ecad Mistflier
Force Wielder and Old School Disturber of the Peace
:: Ex Master Smuggler :: DEC 15 = BYE BYE SoE :: Ex SWG Jedi ::

"There is more stupidity than hydrogen in the universe, and it has a longer shelf life."
Frank Zappa
zazo
Mon May 10, 2004 11:00 am
#25






RylanStorm wrote:

I can assure you tkm's are not overpowered as anything with good kinetic resists, ie 80% kinetic comp armor on my server, can stand up to them for a long time.


And your point is? Anything with 80% resists against the damage type used against it will prolong the longevity of that player exponentially but I still watched a guy wearing 80% kinetic get smashed by a TK in 3 hits the other day.


Please dont compare the swg universe to real life tactics. If people walked around in RL with bullet proof body armor then you would certainly find that at least at the unarmed level you could still "incapacitate" someone.


Oh no. Not this argument again.


Anytime you make any comparison whatsoever between real physics and those that are used in games somebody says you can't compare a game to real life.


The stock answer ( I should copy this down and repost it each time someone uses it ) is that whereas the game is based on a fictional universe there are simple laws of phyics which must exist to maintain plausability. If this is somehow untrue then I'd like my Small House to have double the capacity of my Guild Hall. After all it's only a game and you can't compare it to real life.


Pure unarmed damage is out of whack, and anyone who isn't a TK can appreciate that. It doesn't matter if you've been beaten by one, or if you've been outdamaged by one, it's pure common sense and it's why there are so many cries of nerf in the GCW forum.


Unarmed dmg is in line with most other forms of elite damage that's called balance. If you reduce the dmg you eliminate the profession you are basically saying here that there is no way this particular melee profession should be any challenge for your uber ranged profession because you cannot conceive of where their damage type should effect you.


I understand the idea behind the Teras Kasi and the role which they fulfilled. I understand the idea of drawing energy within and it does carry with it the justification for enhanced damage and speed. Getting hit in PvP for 800 damage by someone using their bare hands is so far beyond enhanced damage it's not true and it's counter-intuitive to the idea of reduced PvP damage.


Then factor in the PvE damage. I really wonder how much damage a person could do to something the size of a Krayt Dragon or Kimogilla with their fists and feet. I can tentatively understand that in unarmed combat you can break a humanoids arm, leg or neck, but it's difficult when taking about fully armoured humanoids. It's even harder to believe when talking about something the size of a bus.


ERR about as much logic as carrying a giant hammer but then thats in the game too.


There are about 31 professions out there that understand this concept. I'm out. This is about as productive as any other thread like this. Nobody is ever willing to accept if some skill they have is out of balance.







1. i'm sure the guy getting beat was unbuffed because 80%comp + buffs = tkm is useless


2. Dude you brought up the RL comparison first not me. Your argument here is lame at best I simply asked you not to compare the two.


Basically your logic is if someone came to "beat you up" in RL you would shoot them before they got to you and there for your gun prevails in seconds, and thus It should be this way in the game... yeah that sounds like a lot of fun doesnt it?


I'd like to explain how balance in a game works so people can play different types with different styles and everyone can enjoy the game but you wouldnt understand.


Yourcomment is nothing more than any other nerf whiner in SWG. There is no way anyone with remotely medocre skills and an elite combat profession could say that tkm is out of balance.



Zazo Flyrider
Leader of DN/Non-smuggling smuggler since Sept' 03
NinNyang Ninnang Nynyang Nin Nong Ninnang


RylanStorm
Mon May 10, 2004 11:20 am
#26


i'm sure the guy getting beat was unbuffed because 80%comp + buffs = tkm is useless


He was unbuffed. In prolonged or chance battles people are rarely buffed because more often then not it becomes about getting back into the fight as soon as possible. Three hits and the guy was dead. There's no doubting that. It happens regularly.


your theory has been discounted.


Yes. By one small subset with a heavy bias. Let me give you a brief recap. Creature Handlers didn't believe they were overpowered. 30 other professions did.


BH's didn't think the LLC top end specials were overpowered. 30 other professions did. TKs dont believe unarmed damage is too high. Riflemen don't think 2500 point mind hits are overpowered, Imperials didn't think 35,000 HAM, 1200 Damage per hit AT-STs were overpowered.


Unarmed dmg is in line with most other forms of elite damage that's called balance. If you reduce the dmg you eliminate the profession you are basically saying here that there is no way this particular melee profession should be any challenge for your uber ranged profession because you cannot conceive of where their damage type should effect you.


I disagree. Certain classes do more damage then others at a faster rate. You only think it's balanced because it suits the agenda. TKA is one of those professions. Mierra does too hence "they may have higher damage" and "in Star Wars, TKA are powerful. i suggest you deal with it."


Those arent my words.The thing is theirs a combat balance coming up, don't know if you missed that. You might find that in a few weeks time I'm saying to Mierra"Hey, Unarmed damage got reduced. Deal with it."





__________________________________________



Rylan Storm - Pistoleer

Master Smuggler

Rogue's Hideaway - Naboo - Sylvex


Eclipse Rocket Launcher and Proton Grenade Sale

__________________________________________


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