Smuggler Archive
Thread: SOE management is looking into a definitive legal approach of FD-blackbarring
rogue_eight
Fri Jan 28, 2005 7:03 am
#14
Unfortunately, I can't see how moving the skill or changing mods to its effectiveness as you climb trees will have any impact on camping and blackbarring.
The fact still remains that if you feign in pvp and you succeed, then it is still possible to be camped and blackbarred.
The only way I see that this can be solved in the case of feigning is, as has been said above, to make the feigner truly appear as a corpse.
I've never been camped or black-barred, but then I've rarely been in a position where I pvp by choice, and when I have I've been TEFed and surprised, then deathblown. I do however think that if someone chooses to sit there and camp you, bashing hell out of a 'corpse' then they are very sad individuals, and I can't see what they hope to gain or prove by their actions.
Just as I don't whine if someone manages to deathblow me before I can feign (hey, I was outskilled in timing and use of abilities) then I'd expect another player to accept that I was 'faster on the draw' and feigned before they could beat me down.
I suppose it comes down to the level of maturity of the player.
Just my tuppence.
And by the way, yeah I think it's griefing, in the same way that hanging about in Kessel near the jump points and obliterating people trying their master missions was griefing when JTL first came out. And they sorted that out...
The fact still remains that if you feign in pvp and you succeed, then it is still possible to be camped and blackbarred.
The only way I see that this can be solved in the case of feigning is, as has been said above, to make the feigner truly appear as a corpse.
I've never been camped or black-barred, but then I've rarely been in a position where I pvp by choice, and when I have I've been TEFed and surprised, then deathblown. I do however think that if someone chooses to sit there and camp you, bashing hell out of a 'corpse' then they are very sad individuals, and I can't see what they hope to gain or prove by their actions.
Just as I don't whine if someone manages to deathblow me before I can feign (hey, I was outskilled in timing and use of abilities) then I'd expect another player to accept that I was 'faster on the draw' and feigned before they could beat me down.
I suppose it comes down to the level of maturity of the player.
Just my tuppence.
And by the way, yeah I think it's griefing, in the same way that hanging about in Kessel near the jump points and obliterating people trying their master missions was griefing when JTL first came out. And they sorted that out...
Bravo12
Fri Jan 28, 2005 5:15 pm
#15
As I replied in the other thread:
All SOE has to do is make characters Feigning Death not attackable! To balance it, you don't regerate any HAM while FD. So, what you go down with, you come up with. If you can FD long enough that the enemies move away a little, you might find a chance to pop up and throw yourself a heal or hit /burstrun and get away. As long as they can't attack you, they can camp all they want, because you can wait them out. Also, for those PvPers that are unfamiliar with the skill of FD, they might not even know you are feigning - your tag will show "corpse of..." and you will be a white unattackable while you are down, just like every other corpse. Those familiar with the skill might camp you, knowing you're a smuggler, but if they cant attack you it becomes a matter of who wants to sit around staring at their screen longer. This will encourage other players to just move along as if you were dead when you FD - how's that for realism? I know PvP is popular, but don't most of us (esp Smugglers and Rangers) enjoy this game for the immersive experience? And the Jedi-dabbler exploit could be overcome by allowing MBH's with a bounty on a Jedi to have a % chance to still attack and DB the feigning Jedi - like the experienced MBH knows the difference between a dead body and someone who is still breathing -but against everyone else it works normally.
Am I off-track, or is this solution too simple? The biggest complaint is that we can be beaten to a pulp while FD - so dont let players beat a FD character to a pulp. To balance it, you done get to do anything (including regenerate) while FD. You can only a)clone, or b)get up (which is not an option now, once people start beating on your supposed corpse). It seems the original design of the skill did not consider its uses in PvP at all.
Bravo12
Fri Jan 28, 2005 5:16 pm
#16
Sorry, double-posted. 
Message Edited by Bravo12 on 01-28-2005 07:18 PM
twiafu
Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:02 pm
#17
Bravo12 wrote:
As I replied in the other thread:
All SOE has to do is make characters Feigning Death not attackable! To balance it, you don't regerate any HAM while FD. So, what you go down with, you come up with. If you can FD long enough that the enemies move away a little, you might find a chance to pop up and throw yourself a heal or hit /burstrun and get away. As long as they can't attack you, they can camp all they want, because you can wait them out. Also, for those PvPers that are unfamiliar with the skill of FD, they might not even know you are feigning - your tag will show "corpse of..." and you will be a white unattackable while you are down, just like every other corpse. Those familiar with the skill might camp you, knowing you're a smuggler, but if they cant attack you it becomes a matter of who wants to sit around staring at their screen longer. This will encourage other players to just move along as if you were dead when you FD - how's that for realism? I know PvP is popular, but don't most of us (esp Smugglers and Rangers) enjoy this game for the immersive experience? And the Jedi-dabbler exploit could be overcome by allowing MBH's with a bounty on a Jedi to have a % chance to still attack and DB the feigning Jedi - like the experienced MBH knows the difference between a dead body and someone who is still breathing -but against everyone else it works normally.
Am I off-track, or is this solution too simple? The biggest complaint is that we can be beaten to a pulp while FD - so dont let players beat a FD character to a pulp. To balance it, you done get to do anything (including regenerate) while FD. You can only a)clone, or b)get up (which is not an option now, once people start beating on your supposed corpse). It seems the original design of the skill did not consider its uses in PvP at all.
I like this idea....
HiltzBruder
Sat Jan 29, 2005 9:09 am
#18
Bravo12 wrote:As I replied in the other thread:All SOE has to do is make characters Feigning Death not attackable! To balance it, you don't regerate any HAM while FD. So, what you go down with, you come up with. If you can FD long enough that the enemies move away a little, you might find a chance to pop up and throw yourself a heal or hit /burstrun and get away. As long as they can't attack you, they can camp all they want, because you can wait them out. Also, for those PvPers that are unfamiliar with the skill of FD, they might not even know you are feigning - your tag will show "corpse of..." and you will be a white unattackable while you are down, just like every other corpse. Those familiar with the skill might camp you, knowing you're a smuggler, but if they cant attack you it becomes a matter of who wants to sit around staring at their screen longer. This will encourage other players to just move along as if you were dead when you FD - how's that for realism? I know PvP is popular, but don't most of us (esp Smugglers and Rangers) enjoy this game for the immersive experience? And the Jedi-dabbler exploit could be overcome by allowing MBH's with a bounty on a Jedi to have a % chance to still attack and DB the feigning Jedi - like the experienced MBH knows the difference between a dead body and someone who is still breathing - but against everyone else it works normally.Am I off-track, or is this solution too simple? The biggest complaint is that we can be beaten to a pulp while FD - so dont let players beat a FD character to a pulp. To balance it, you done get to do anything (including regenerate) while FD. You can only a)clone, or b)get up (which is not an option now, once people start beating on your supposed corpse). It seems the original design of the skill did not consider its uses in PvP at all.
I agree with this VERY strongly. I think that it saying corpse of ..... would solve a lot of problems, then the pc irl really doesnt know if you are dead or just feign deathing. I also think that at least a medic should be able to see past it too, cause a medic would be able to tell if someone is actually dead or not.
ana-mo-cara
Sat Jan 29, 2005 9:23 am
#19
Boo lets kiss the jedis rear end while we are at it. This is a jedi point of view if I ever heard one. FD is supposed to be a last ditch move. That means you should be low hammed while doing it. FD is a combat move. You are still in combat. That means when you stand up whatever was attacking you will jump back on you again. In the case of a jedi zerging BH mission he rarely cares. He got hit he plays dead. He or she still has ample ham.
All makeing no ham regen does is force smugglers to use the FD as a first move not a last resort. Hmmm it cons yellow play dead. How many fights will smugglers be forced to cop out of. By fding immediately, and what is the fun of lying onthe ground ten minutes to get BR back, and what do you do if you go FD with next to no ham left and you still have the stand awkwardness. You are guaranteed to die?
Bad freaking idea. It favors jedi not smugglers.
EltonAlucard
Sat Jan 29, 2005 10:10 am
#20
Here are some more things to consider on this issue.
One question should be will changes in FD PvP effect FD PvE?
Being able to blackbar a FD player should not be allowed in my thinking. If a players is successful in FD, then you think they are dead
and attack someone else. If the FD skill is to stay a PvP tatic, then an FD player has to become unattackable, mabe 15 seconds after the FD hits. DOTs would still eat at you, but no new attackes.
One thing could be a timer on your next FD. If you FD once, no one will be fooled a 2nd time. So maybe you should only be able to FD once every 2 min, or need to be a peace for 1 min before your next FD. Or only 1 FD allow in a during a PvP combat.
The could split the skills, PvP FD and PvE FD. Give them at different levels with defferent effects.
kgmkiorys
Sat Jan 29, 2005 10:20 am
#21
Hmmm i was thinking about something, how could someone be fooled by a "corpse of..." if he hasn't DBed ?
In the middle of a battle with plenty of players you can attempt to hide yourself in the amount of corpses, but if you're on a 5 on 5 for instance, nobody will be fooled, worse, if you're a smuggler turned overt after a scan and chased by a passing by overt warrior, how could you fool him ?
That's the root of some kind of deepest reflexion don't you think? I still wonder how it is possible nobody (including me) hasn't noticed this point yet (or raised it).
Ackehece
Sat Jan 29, 2005 11:19 am
#22
wierd idea here (don't burn me at the stake)
- feign death should be a special you select before you incap
- should only be selectable when you hit 90% or less ham
- on the next hit you incap
- then when someone or something deathblows you, you enter the feign state and don't really die
- you don't regen but you show as a corpse and are treated by the system as such
- when aggro breaks or someone leaves you can stand
Cloudchasing
Sat Jan 29, 2005 11:27 am
#23
Ackehece wrote:
wierd idea here (don't burn me at the stake)
- feign death should be a special you select before you incap
- should only be selectable when you hit 90% or less ham
- on the next hit you incap
- then when someone or something deathblows you, you enter the feign state and don't really die
- you don't regen but you show as a corpse and are treated by the system as such
- when aggro breaks or someone leaves you can stand
ooo,
I like this. it works in PvP, because a player has to db you for the full effect to take place. And it works in PvE too, because if a creature doesn'tdb naturally, then they just walk away when your incapped, but if the mob DOES db, then you have protection here too.
Yes, this could still be used and abused by Jedi, but....
Ok, question for all of ya. I use FD when I'm taken by surprise unarmored, unbuffed. Or when I take something on that I shouldn't have. The biggest reason I do is that if I died, I'd have to clone and come all the way back to where I was. I don't care about PvP ranking or anything like that.
HOw about if you FD in PvP you have all the penalties of dying, such as loss of faction. If a jedi FDs, they lose xp just as if the BH killed them really. If a BH FDs then they lose the mission. Sure, if the jedi FDs their name gets off the terms, but if you add the xp loss, then many won't use it.
This is just an idea, and is completely open to whatever. I don't wish this with all my heart, so rip the ideas apart and rework them, but I'm curious to see what folks think
Bravo12
Sat Jan 29, 2005 12:20 pm
#24
The way to resolve the Jedi exploit of FD is to not let them have it at all. Someone else had the idea of not allowing certain prof's to be attained at the same time (Jedi, BH, Smuggler) which are all inherently enemies to each other. Sounds like a solution for the dabbling, to me.
I like the last idea of requiring your HAM to be low before using FD, but I would go as high as 50%, since you might very well need to use it when caught unbuffed against something or someone doing 1k damage per hit. But, once you go down, and youre not regenerating any HAM, I dont see how it can be exploited - all you're doing is putting yourself on pause and hoping the baddies go away. Using it at the beginning of combat is of no use, really - if youre being attacked by a spawned MOB, its not going to wander very far; and if you're in PvP, you lose PvP rating and FP, and you probably shouldnt be PvPing anyway if your tactic is to immediately take a dive. As mentioned before, it could be a good tactic, though, in the heat of team battle, to FD until the enemies are busy with your teammates, then get up and /burstrun to the mission objective.
With the /fd player unattackable, I agree that Doctors and CMs should have a % chance (vs the Smuggler's skill) to detect if they are feigning or not - maybe a /diagnose would reveal it, too. Both players would get a message, and the /fd player would be attackable by the doc/CM that detected it - and once he attacks, the rest of the group could as well. (That way, for RP puropes, the Doc/CM has the option of detecting a feign, but not giving it away to his group, all double-agent style.) 
Right now, FD is nearly useless for PvP.
Right now, FD is nearly useless for PvP.(BTW, I'm not a Jedi, never was a Jedi, don't care to be another of the majority of Jedi, nor do I even know any Jedi, so my idea was hardly a "Jedi point of view." If anything, I'd like to see the reigns pulled tighter on the Jedi so they go back into hiding.)
Message Edited by Bravo12 on 01-29-2005 02:22 PM
Cloudchasing
Sat Jan 29, 2005 11:26 pm
#25
yanno,
this is a good idea
Just a thought of mine, and I really think that stackers will disagree, but there is an easy way to fix this.
thereare5 different classes of elite profs. With Pilot, Politician, Entertainer, and Dancer being removed from the 5
Melee: Ranged: Hybrid: Healing:Jedi
Pikeman Rifleman CommandoDoctor
Fencer Pistoleer Bounty Hunter Combat Medic
Teras Kasi Carbineer Smuggler
Swordsman(Swordsperson? lol)
Ok, and this is up for a lot of tweaking, but it's late, so modify as you want.
If you are a prof in one of these, then you can't have a prof in the same class, and if you are Jedi, you cant be ANY elite prof, inluding Dancer/Musician
A Pikeman, can't be a Fencer too, a Smuggler can't be a Bounty Hunter, but you can be a Pistoleer/BH, or a Fencer/Pistoleer Not sure about the Doc/CM thing, but it fits in with the rest of my rules that I set up.
Just an idea
Crap, I forgot about all the crafters, lol, obviously, I think crafters are outside of these combat profs too, although some may argue that one shouldn't be a Smuggler/Crafter, but I personally don't mind it too much
Message Edited by Cloudchasing on 01-30-2005 01:26 AM
Message Edited by Cloudchasing on 01-30-2005 01:27 AM
Message Edited by Cloudchasing on 01-30-2005 01:29 AM
Message Edited by Cloudchasing on 01-30-2005 12:55 PM
Orcajum
Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:34 am
#26
Ok, i've rarely used FD (almost never in PvP) so my thoughts may be completely irrelivant to the debate around FD. However, here are a few truths as I see it:
Feign Death is a wonderful, unique special. As far as I can determine (like I said, I don't know PvP well) the only skill in the game that is NOT Offensive in nature. It is THE Defensive skill. It was conceived not as an "I WIN" button but an "I Conceede Please, GOD, Don't Hurt Me" button.
Feign Death seems to have been developed from a strictly PvE mindset. The comments a while back that "Feign Death was not intended as a PvP Skill" seems to indicate that the devs never truly considered how it would work outside the PvE arena. We can all see, by how commonplace blackbarring is, how the old DOT-FD tricks used to work, and how the current BH vs. Jedi use of the skill have developed, that there was a lack of forethought placed on how FD would work in-game. I suppose we could even say the good-ol'-days of Smugglers soloing Kryats indicates how poorly developed the skill was. Its a great idea (a defense-first skill) but it's implimentation is severly lacking.
This all being said, Feign Death is working precisely as it was intended to work.
The problem IS NOT with FD. The problem is with the PLAYERS.
More and more, it seems rather apparent, Star Wars Galaxies was never designed with the Ub3z 1337 "1m 60nn4 PwnZ U" player in mind. And it is this type of player who primarily comprise the BH and Jedi communities. I'm not saying everyone in these two professions are this way, but from my experience, the vast majority play SWG for their bodycount.
Look at some of the evidence. Buff-bots, the Jedi system (hologrinding and recent), Defense stacking, players with 6 dozen alt characters...none of this was anticipated at launch. It is primarily the powergamers who have pushed through the combat system so quickly that in only 1 1/2 years, the entire combat system (the foundation of the entire game) is requiring an complete overhaul. The exposion of Jedi populations, the insane economic status, the increasinly more impossible dungeons, all are the effects of trying to appease the powergamer community that was not expected at launch. SWG, from my perspective, seems to have been initially designed for a more causal, immersive-seeking, Star Wars Fan.
Brought back to the question of FD, we are able to be blackbarred because the Devs never expected players to be so intense about PWNing someone that they would kick the crap out of a conceeding player for 30+ minutes, griefing them if you will, just for bragging rights. Just to say, "not only did i PWN you, but i humiliated you and ruined your game because, by not letting me chalk your body up, you ruined mine." And it is because of the nature of this type of player that FD WILL NEVER be a balanced skill. Someone is always going to whine when they can't PWN or got PWNed, or whatever else. This is why, I fear, the CURB will only really be effective in 'balancing' the game play for another 1 1/2 years. After that, the pleyerbase will have discovered all the tricks, all the new templates, all the Ub3R necessary knowledge, to unbalance the game again. Face it, a year of gameplay by the thousands of players will reveal much more than any 6 months of extensive testing.
The unfortunate thing is, because one group of Uberz has to always fight another group of Uberz, we will be the eventual victims. I'm fairly confident in stating that most Smugglers seem to fit into that immersive-seeking, SW fan player more than 1337-seekers. I'm not trying to rail for the nerfing of FD. Hell, I wish there were a way to save the skill for those who truely need it. Unfortunately, I don't see exactly how that will happen given the playing style of most powergamers.
Before I start getting flamed, I'm not blaming the powergamers for all the problems in SWG. Everyone has the right to game how they wish, so long as it doesn't negatively impact someone else's gameplay (and by negative impact, I don't mean just because you died). I'm just stating my belief that there was little forethought to powergaming when SWG went live, and the devs have been in a constant state of catch-up ever since.
Ok, sorry for the dissertation. I'll go back to my nonskilled PvP corner and try to learn something.
Feign Death is a wonderful, unique special. As far as I can determine (like I said, I don't know PvP well) the only skill in the game that is NOT Offensive in nature. It is THE Defensive skill. It was conceived not as an "I WIN" button but an "I Conceede Please, GOD, Don't Hurt Me" button.
Feign Death seems to have been developed from a strictly PvE mindset. The comments a while back that "Feign Death was not intended as a PvP Skill" seems to indicate that the devs never truly considered how it would work outside the PvE arena. We can all see, by how commonplace blackbarring is, how the old DOT-FD tricks used to work, and how the current BH vs. Jedi use of the skill have developed, that there was a lack of forethought placed on how FD would work in-game. I suppose we could even say the good-ol'-days of Smugglers soloing Kryats indicates how poorly developed the skill was. Its a great idea (a defense-first skill) but it's implimentation is severly lacking.
This all being said, Feign Death is working precisely as it was intended to work.
The problem IS NOT with FD. The problem is with the PLAYERS.
More and more, it seems rather apparent, Star Wars Galaxies was never designed with the Ub3z 1337 "1m 60nn4 PwnZ U" player in mind. And it is this type of player who primarily comprise the BH and Jedi communities. I'm not saying everyone in these two professions are this way, but from my experience, the vast majority play SWG for their bodycount.
Look at some of the evidence. Buff-bots, the Jedi system (hologrinding and recent), Defense stacking, players with 6 dozen alt characters...none of this was anticipated at launch. It is primarily the powergamers who have pushed through the combat system so quickly that in only 1 1/2 years, the entire combat system (the foundation of the entire game) is requiring an complete overhaul. The exposion of Jedi populations, the insane economic status, the increasinly more impossible dungeons, all are the effects of trying to appease the powergamer community that was not expected at launch. SWG, from my perspective, seems to have been initially designed for a more causal, immersive-seeking, Star Wars Fan.
Brought back to the question of FD, we are able to be blackbarred because the Devs never expected players to be so intense about PWNing someone that they would kick the crap out of a conceeding player for 30+ minutes, griefing them if you will, just for bragging rights. Just to say, "not only did i PWN you, but i humiliated you and ruined your game because, by not letting me chalk your body up, you ruined mine." And it is because of the nature of this type of player that FD WILL NEVER be a balanced skill. Someone is always going to whine when they can't PWN or got PWNed, or whatever else. This is why, I fear, the CURB will only really be effective in 'balancing' the game play for another 1 1/2 years. After that, the pleyerbase will have discovered all the tricks, all the new templates, all the Ub3R necessary knowledge, to unbalance the game again. Face it, a year of gameplay by the thousands of players will reveal much more than any 6 months of extensive testing.
The unfortunate thing is, because one group of Uberz has to always fight another group of Uberz, we will be the eventual victims. I'm fairly confident in stating that most Smugglers seem to fit into that immersive-seeking, SW fan player more than 1337-seekers. I'm not trying to rail for the nerfing of FD. Hell, I wish there were a way to save the skill for those who truely need it. Unfortunately, I don't see exactly how that will happen given the playing style of most powergamers.
Before I start getting flamed, I'm not blaming the powergamers for all the problems in SWG. Everyone has the right to game how they wish, so long as it doesn't negatively impact someone else's gameplay (and by negative impact, I don't mean just because you died). I'm just stating my belief that there was little forethought to powergaming when SWG went live, and the devs have been in a constant state of catch-up ever since.
Ok, sorry for the dissertation. I'll go back to my nonskilled PvP corner and try to learn something.