Smuggler Archive
Thread: Let me abuse your skills then tell you how it needs to be nerfed
Hey NickHeel,
I think awhile back Ternque and I debated the issue, and from that just have a couple of comments.
NickHeel wrote:
You would appear as an Incapacitated corpse until the other person laid the Deathblow on you, which would make them view you asa corpse. You could also throw in goodies like the other person, if factioned or a Bounty Hunter, receiving a system message for credits, experience, or faction points received but not actually get anything.
The problem here is that it would become open to exploiting, with Smuggers and Bounty Hunter friends creating their templates in a fashion to ensure the Smuggler always appears dead - the BH would then get the money, etc. and then they're off to do it again.
The only way my feeble mind could come around to finding an acceptable solution to this problem would be that the BH would no longer get their rewards at the moment of kill. They'd have to return to a BH terminal to "register the kill" and at that point be given either the "Congratulations here's your XP and your rewards" or "Our scanners show the target is still alive" and at that point the bounty would either be terminated, or the BH would have to go after the mark again.
I don't think anything shuold break Feign Death either. I'm 50/50 on a Bounty Hunter only skill that let's them get a comparable chance at "visually" scanning a person for signs of life. Chances of a successfull roll for the Bounty Hunter to find life should be the same as the Smuggler Feigning death with skill mods that climb as they reach Master Bounty Hunter. Would give them some incentive since alow-level Bounty Hunter would fair far worse than a Master Bounty Hunter.
Yeah, gotta agree with you on that, my other idea at the time was that the BH's be given a "Corpse Shot" Kinda like walking up to the body, putting your LLC up to the head of the mark and pulling the trigger - "because you can never be too sure" The BH would then go back to the terminal to confirm the kill.In most cases, the smuggler will die - unless it was say a Master Smuggler and a green Novice Bounty Hunter, then maybe.
I don't know why we don't just leave it where it is and......../gasp.....have the Modifiers actually work all the way up to Master with the combat level of the opponent factoring in against the modifiers for a successfull Feign Death roll.
Amen! Hallelujah! 
Cheers Dat
Bzzzz wrote:
yimaz wrote:
I love the skill but feel it needs some work:
1. move it to master (I know thats a long climb but many dabbles wont do the grind for one skill and as one of our strongest skills it needs to not be easy to get)
Why? We've already got mods in the Dirty-Fighting tree, I say we use 'em. If you'd like, keep master-level feigns to the success-rate they are now, but reduce the effectiveness earlier in the tree. Smuggling pre-master is already damned useless, and taking away the sole reason to stick with it would drive away new novices. And without novices, we have no more precious masters. - based on Nicks idea i can agree with you on that.
2. Put it on a timer like FoW (TKA skill that can only be used once an hour.
FoW is balanced the way it is because it's an outstanding skill, incomparable to what you're suggesting for FD.Is FoW limited only to masters? - yep it is pointless until master Does it auto-fail againsta prof it was designed to target? - sorry it does fail, so yes it does Of course not, TKAs would revolt. Why should we be any different? - FOW is pointless until master, sorry but your agrument on this one is moot.
3. When you FD you should be unattackable but with this ablity it should have a greater risk of failure
See my response to 1. Adding a % of failure AND increasing the level requirement isdouble-jeopardy, unless you add more of a significant benefit (FD black-rot is currently a pretty small-time problem). - that was my point (did you miss that) the benefit is that you become unattackable (i.e. no black rot)
4. Bounty Hunters and Bounty Hunters only should be able to break this skill. (yes I know radical thought but hey someone has to be able to counter it and it might as well be the BH's)
How is giving BHs an auto-success against Feign any more fair and balanced than it is now? We're likely to see a BH-Smuggler struggle in the near future, and given the huge gap in combat-effectiveness between us, taking away our last defense would be suicide. Being on the terms should be exciting, not a death sentence. And furthermore, if we give BHs the auto-win card, Medics-based professions will rightly demand that they be able to diagnose it as well. Then anyone with a BH or Medic skill will break Feign, which in PvP, is virtually everyone. - Bounty hunters more then anyone should be able to tell if someone is faking death the skill would have a change of failing like anything else in the game. If FD worked and we became unattackable someone in the game would have to have the skill to break it. BH seems the logical choice.
Personally, I'd much rather see Feign dropped completely than have it nerfed into oblivion as both Bounty-Hunters AND Smugglers have been proposing. If it's such a problem, get rid of it and give us something we can use. Because these Master-Level, PVE-only, reduced-effectiveness, Hour-Timer proposals all do essentially the same thing: FD might stay on the skilltree, but itwould certainly be removed from our toolbars. - any skill that negates a DB needs to have some lvl of balance in FD's current state i agree with you 100% but if we became unattackable when we FD'd it would need to be on a timer to prevent abuse. Its not nurfing the skill if we became unattackable when we FD'd. Most of my proposed changes are based around that one key issue. If your still open to attack (black rot) when FD'ng then yes I agree with your whole post.
-Zz
Message Edited by yimaz on 12-13-2004 02:21 PM
Daturaze wrote:
NickHeel wrote:
You would appear as an Incapacitated corpse until the other person laid the Deathblow on you, which would make them view you asa corpse. You could also throw in goodies like the other person, if factioned or a Bounty Hunter, receiving a system message for credits, experience, or faction points received but not actually get anything.
The problem here is that it would become open to exploiting, with Smuggers and Bounty Hunter friends creating their templates in a fashion to ensure the Smuggler always appears dead - the BH would then get the money, etc. and then they're off to do it again.
The only way my feeble mind could come around to finding an acceptable solution to this problem would be that the BH would no longer get their rewards at the moment of kill. They'd have to return to a BH terminal to "register the kill" and at that point be given either the "Congratulations here's your XP and your rewards" or "Our scanners show the target is still alive" and at that point the bounty would either be terminated, or the BH would have to go after the mark again.
But I would agree with you had I said that the Bounty Hunter actually got his payment 
NickHeel wrote:
Daturaze wrote:
NickHeel wrote:
You would appear as an Incapacitated corpse until the other person laid the Deathblow on you, which would make them view you asa corpse. You could also throw in goodies like the other person, if factioned or a Bounty Hunter, receiving a system message for credits, experience, or faction points received but not actually get anything.
The problem here is that it would become open to exploiting, with Smuggers and Bounty Hunter friends creating their templates in a fashion to ensure the Smuggler always appears dead - the BH would then get the money, etc. and then they're off to do it again.
The only way my feeble mind could come around to finding an acceptable solution to this problem would be that the BH would no longer get their rewards at the moment of kill. They'd have to return to a BH terminal to "register the kill" and at that point be given either the "Congratulations here's your XP and your rewards" or "Our scanners show the target is still alive" and at that point the bounty would either be terminated, or the BH would have to go after the mark again.
Read a little closer
BAH - Reading is for losers!
Nah, seriously - if the BH system was changed, they'd get the message, get nothing - but if they check their credits, they'll know they've been duped, so then they're standing over a supposed corpse they know is faking and unable to do anything. That would just create more whining over the situation and more ill feelings. Forget the "Jedi vs BH Whine" the "Smuggler vs BH Whine" would be huge!
Cheers
Dat
Daturaze wrote:
NickHeel wrote:
Daturaze wrote:
NickHeel wrote:
You would appear as an Incapacitated corpse until the other person laid the Deathblow on you, which would make them view you asa corpse. You could also throw in goodies like the other person, if factioned or a Bounty Hunter, receiving a system message for credits, experience, or faction points received but not actually get anything.
The problem here is that it would become open to exploiting, with Smuggers and Bounty Hunter friends creating their templates in a fashion to ensure the Smuggler always appears dead - the BH would then get the money, etc. and then they're off to do it again.
The only way my feeble mind could come around to finding an acceptable solution to this problem would be that the BH would no longer get their rewards at the moment of kill. They'd have to return to a BH terminal to "register the kill" and at that point be given either the "Congratulations here's your XP and your rewards" or "Our scanners show the target is still alive" and at that point the bounty would either be terminated, or the BH would have to go after the mark again.
Read a little closer
BAH - Reading is for losers!
Nah, seriously - if the BH system was changed, they'd get the message, get nothing - but if they check their credits, they'll know they've been duped, so then they're standing over a supposed corpse they know is faking and unable to do anything. That would just create more whining over the situation and more ill feelings. Forget the "Jedi vs BH Whine" the "Smuggler vs BH Whine" would be huge!
Cheers
Dat
Thatguyfubu wrote:
My feeling is that it should be timer based. Lets say at novice you can only remain FD for 30 sec. As you move up the longer it will last. Once you get to Master you can just remain FD until you decide to get up. This is how feel it shoud work.
-Zaran
Wrong answer. There'd be no point to Feigning Death before Master since whoever you Feigned on would simply camp you for the time alotted. And camping is not good.
We have MODIFIERS for Feign Death...why can't we make them work?
NickHeel wrote:
Thatguyfubu wrote:
My feeling is that it should be timer based. Lets say at novice you can only remain FD for 30 sec. As you move up the longer it will last. Once you get to Master you can just remain FD until you decide to get up. This is how feel it shoud work.
-Zaran
Wrong answer. There'd be no point to Feigning Death before Master since whoever you Feigned on would simply camp you for the time alotted. And camping is not good.
We have MODIFIERS for Feign Death...why can't we make them work?
Message Edited by yimaz on 12-13-2004 02:54 PM
NickHeel wrote:
Thatguyfubu wrote:
My feeling is that it should be timer based. Lets say at novice you can only remain FD for 30 sec. As you move up the longer it will last. Once you get to Master you can just remain FD until you decide to get up. This is how feel it shoud work.
-Zaran
Wrong answer. There'd be no point to Feigning Death before Master since whoever you Feigned on would simply camp you for the time alotted. And camping is not good.
We have MODIFIERS for Feign Death...why can't we make them work?
The reason why I state this is that at this point it would still work at PvE but would not be very usefull for PvP until master. This would deter people from dabbling for FD unless they wanted to use it for PvE. How many Jedi and BH use it in PvE. As a smuggle I am not really planning on PvP until I finish my template I would be grinding to get master smuggler anyways.
Also how would know how long to camp me anyways. Plus whats to stop them from camping me now as it stands. Only way they would know that I was NOT a master was if I was a Jedi or Bounty hunter and if that is the case well I shouldn't be using this skill.
Ternque01 wrote:
At some point you are going to have to realize that playing dead has no place in player bounties.
Even with a balanced implementation, a bounty hunter WILL check the corpse. It is part of his/her job.
The existence of a workable "play dead" feature contrasts the way that BH's operate with respect to their checking their marks, and I think this is the issue.
I'm getting tired of saying this. While FD is a cool feature that could be included in player bounties, it is inappropriate. You still couldn't pay me 1 million credits to believe that playing dead in front of a trained assassin is going to work. Once their mark has been incapacitated, they move in and DB everytime. They do it like clockwork for cold hard cash.