Smuggler Archive

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GreenMarine wrote:

Why should I, or anyone else in the Smuggler community, continue to pay
for this game?

Because:

1. At its core, SWG is still a fun game. The next few publishes are focused
   on fixing major elements of what makes the game frustrating. Eliminating
   hologrinding, improving the Jedi experience, balancing combat, and
   introducing new GCW features. All of this promises to improve the overall
   SWG experience.
   
2. JTL is coming. Jump to Lightspeed is adding a completely new experience
   to the game. It's a lot of fun and its very different.
   
3. Smugglers will get a revamp. I can't say when. If I did, and we missed
   it, you'd kill me. A revamp will happen.
   
4. No more smuggler B.S. No more announcing a date and not delivering.
   We're going to put together a plan for smuggler and post it here so you guys
   can review it. We'll have a plan determined before we start writing the code
   so you know whats going to happen to your profession.
   
5. Because we will do a lot of stuff you asked for. Better spices. Spice
   experimentation. No more pistol requirement. A lot more new stuff as
   well.
   

If they do answer, another question I would have would be... why
should I, or any other member of the Smuggler community, believe you this time
after so many broken promises?

1. No more broken promises. I had some very frank discussions with several
   smugglers at Fan Fest. I KNOW you guys are frustrated. We aren't going to
   string you along. There will be a revamp. It might happen after JTL, but it
   will happen. There will be a public plan for the revamp ahead of time
   (possibly soon) that you guys can start tweaking for implementation.
   
2. I take this profession very seriously. I know its flaws. I'm going to
   level up a new smuggler character, myself. It's very important to me that
   Smuggler is improved and turned into a fun, rewarding profession.

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GreenMarine wrote:
I spent a decent amount of time at the Fan Fest talking
to Fishbrains and Veela, as well as a lot of other smugglers. A ton of good
ideas and suggestions were discussed. I think I have enough notes stored in my
PDA to give me enough work until the end of the year, even if I wasn't on the
space expansion.

A smuggler revamp is still probably not going to happen until after
space, but I will be able to start work on an official revamp design. I'm
going to write something up and have it posted on this forum, so you guys can
begin to discuss it.

I can't give you a timeframe for the revamp. In fact, you'd probably kill
me if I did and we missed it. I can say that I will pour my soul into making
the smuggler revamp kick ass. It's very important to me that smuggler, ranger,
and squad leader are made to be top notch professions.

You would have been proud of Fishbrains and Veela. They both pulled me
aside at different times and made it very clear they didn't want any b.s. They
made strong arguments and very solid feature suggestions. I know a lot of you
have been contributing to the new design proposals. It's good stuff. If you
can hang in there a bit longer, we'll deliver.

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Message Edited by Smuggler_Caylin on 06-07-2004 12:47 PM

GreenMarine - June 16, 2004 Revamp Discussion: Contraband & Smuggling Missions

This is the second in a series of posts on a smuggler revamp. The goal of these posts is to discuss ideas that can be integrated into a final profession revamp proposal.

In this thread we're going to talk about the contraband system and the idea of smuggling missions. These two issues will be discussed together, because they affect each other.

I've thought about and written down my own conception of how a contraband system update and a new type of smuggling mission would work. These ideas aren't necessarily refined or complete. I want to create a debate through which we can work out a reasonable approach to improving the smuggler profession.

Everything here is debatable, so feel free to question, discuss, or add any ideas you have.

Contraband

Concept

The game’s contraband system will be changed to include a greater number of illegal items, a range of legality levels, and increased penalties for being found with illegal items.

Legal Ranges & Punishment

Items will now have a range of legality. The following legal ranges will be implemented.

· Quasi-legal. A player caught with quasi-legal goods will be attacked.

· Banned. A player caught with banned goods will be attacked. The player’s visibility will increase slightly for each violation.

· Highly Illegal. A player caught with highly illegal goods will be attacked, the goods confiscated (if the attacked player is defeated), and the player’s visibility will increase. Highly illegal objects cannot be transported via the standard travel system by anyone other than a smuggler. The player must use the new smuggler travel system in order to move highly illegal goods. (This new system will be discussed later.)

Illegal objects will display their legality in the examine properties list.

A faction aligned player who is caught with contraband will lose a percentage of faction appropriate to the degree of the crime.

Imperial aligned players will now only be immune to scans regarding quasi-legal goods if they have the rank of corporal or better.

Old sliced weapons and armor will be converted to have the legality level of "banned."

Scan Frequency

Contraband scan frequency will be somewhat increased. Scan bottlenecks will be introduced at various locations in major cities, such as starport entries and medical centers.

Contraband Visibility

The game's "visibility" system will be expanded. Any player can now accumulate small amounts of visibility for a contraband infraction. The amount of visibility will be dependent on the severity of the infraction.

Smugglers may attempt to find out or reduce the visibility of any player by slicing a bounty hunter terminal. Failure to successfully slice the terminal will result in the smuggler being immediately added to the terminal. Clamps cannot be used in this form of slicing. (This will be a new type of slicing, not wire cutting.) More information on this is available in the slicing section.

Smuggling Missions

Concept

Various criminal organizations throughout the galaxy have found financial success in moving illegal substances and goods from one place to another. The vehicles of these transfers are the smugglers, men and women who store their morality along side coffers full of questionable goods. The smugglers are brave and often brash individuals who risk their lives for monetary gain on a daily basis.

The smuggler revamp will introduce new missions to simulate the smuggling underworld.

Basic System

Smuggling Missions are received from various underworld bosses, called ‘suppliers’. Jabba, Lady Valarian, and other key criminal characters, as well as new characters, will offer smuggling missions. Smuggling missions are only offered to smuggler characters. The difficulty of the mission will scale to the average tier level of the smuggler’s skills.

At its core, a smuggling mission is similar to a delivery mission. The player is given a crate of illegal goods to move to another contact. The player must then return the payment for the goods to the source of the mission.

Ex: Jabba gives the player a crate of 50 narcostims to deliver to a cantina in Mos Eisley. After the player delivers the narcostims, she receives a payment of 12,000 credits. The player then returns to Jabba and delivers 8,000 credits, pocketing 4,000 as payment for the job.

There are no skill boxes specific to smuggling missions, but the smuggler’s skills in scan avoidance and slicing will come into play.

Cargo Legality

Smuggling mission cargo is highly illegal. Any non-smuggler caught carrying a crate of any item to be delivered from a smuggling mission will be attacked and have the cargo confiscated.

Due to the illegality of the cargo, the authorities may occasionally hear about a particular supplier’s intent to move goods. Smugglers on a smuggler mission may encounter attacks from planetary or Imperial authorities, depending on the difficulty of the mission. Killing these enemies is not necessary to complete the mission.

The target for a smuggling mission will only wait so long to receive the delivery. If the player does not deliver the goods within a reasonable amount of time (dependent on mission difficulty), the mission will be lost and the player will receive some visibility.

Withholding Cargo

The player may choose to withhold part of the delivery. In the above example, the player may choose to only deliver 30 of the narcostims to the contact in Mos Eisley. If the player chooses to withhold cargo, s/he will only be paid a portion of the actual delivery fee. The amount of the payment will be directly proportional to the amount delivered.

In order to split a container of mission supplies, the smuggler must successfully slice the container’s locking mechanism.

The player may also choose to withhold part of the money to be paid to the supplier. For example, the player might deliver all 50 narcostims, but only pay Jabba 6,000 credits.

Withholding cargo or pay will result in the smuggler earning a small bit of visibility. Thus, a smuggler who chooses to defy the crime lords who supply her with jobs faces the possibility of execution at the hands of a hired Bounty Hunter.

The more difficult the smuggling mission, the greater the visibility gained for cheating.

Cargo Contents

Smuggling mission cargo often contains items that are components for smuggler crafting. Narcostims, for example, might be a component used in the creation of the spice, Glitterstim. Thus, a smuggler will need to occasionally withhold some of the cargo from a mission if they wish to enter the spice business.

In the interests of the player economy and current game balance, spices will remain craftable. Now, however, smugglers will "assemble" various components into spice packages, instead of chemically brewing them. Experimentation will be added...more details later in the spices discussion.

Smuggling cargo may also include crates of low or mid level spices. The player may choose to withhold these spices and resell them to other players if they wish.

Space Integration

There will be elements of smuggler missions involving space zones & space gameplay, but I can't discuss many space details. The player may have to pick up or deliver goods in space. Players without JTL will not be required to go to space. This is an "after space ships" feature.

I can't stress enough that this is very preliminary design work. This isn't a guarantee of implementation. There is no timeframe, except "sometime after space." This is all subject to potential change. If we find out one system is going to be more work than expected, we might have to replace it with a different idea. Keep an open mind.

The goal with the changes to visibility is to add more risk to the smuggling profession. Smugglers who play fast and loose with their suppliers will find bounties on their heads. Visibility will scale to the nature of the violation. Sifting a few components off the top of a delivery will only result in a minor increase, where as keeping an entire crate to yourself will result in more. The goal is to allow players a choice and scale the risk to their play style.

Please discuss...

GreenMarine - 6/21/2004

GreenMarine wrote:

Britamart wrote:

any thoughts to the possibilty of smugglers getting on BH terms? I think pc bounties are one the best ideas to come around in a long time, and would love to see them expanded upon.

"Visibility" is the system by which players go onto BH terminals. I don't have plans to add arbitrary player bounties as a part of the smuggler revamp. But smugglers (and other players) will now accumulate visibility points as they deal in illegal goods. Smugglers will now be able to gamble at looking to see how visible someone is (how likely they are to receive a bounty) at the risk of being caught snooping around bounty hunter computer archives (highly illegal).

This will require a reworking of the visibility code, which is currently specific to Jedi. I don't think that will be too much of a technical effort, though. It's an area I have to research.

GreenMarine - 6/21/2004

GreenMarine wrote:

garvin wrote:

Green...

Maybe I missed this, but a popular question lately has been "Will Smugglers have to buy the JTL to get access to some of the Smuggler revamp enhancements?" Is this too early to be asking?

The answer is NO. You will not have to buy JTL to get the smuggler revamp content. The smuggler revamp is not a part of space, but something to follow after space. There will be space features involved in smuggler mission content, but it will only be offered to players that own JTL.

You will want to buy JTL, though. It's really cool.

GreenMarine - 6/21/2004

GreenMarine wrote:

Dusk wrote:
GreenMarine: It's not mentioned in this post (that I saw ... I was exciting while reading, so forgive me if I missed it), but will the visibility that is accumulated result in the person being on the BH terminals when the visibility reaches a certain point?

Yes, that's the implication. The tough part will be balancing it so that every player who wants to use a spice isn't always at risk. High end spices will be more illegal than lower end ones. High end sliced items will be more illegal than lower end ones (we'll talk about slicing in detail later).

GreenMarine - 6/21/2004

GreenMarine wrote:

RhettSarlin wrote:

glitterstim is found ONE place in the galaxy, on kessel. you want to potentially make it CRAFTABLE? i know it might be good for the player economy, but it SUCKS for continuity!

Chill out. It was an example. Instead of glitterstim insert "blah blah random spice X". If glitterstim is ever included, I'm sure we can find a way to make it fit with continuity.

GreenMarine - 6/21/2004

GreenMarine wrote:

HalasterTheBlack wrote:

Because PvP costs you time. Time to find a doctor *again* to get buffed. To wait in line for that same doctor. And then to wait for the shuttle *again* to get to wherever you were going in the first place. Up to 30 minutes of time for someone who can play 2 hours per night, 2 nights per week is a significant impact, even if his armor won't degrade in the death.

I don't consider this a valid argument against PvP. Those are the penalties for dying, not the penalties for PvP. Most PvEers are saying "I don't mind a penalty that might involve my death, but I don't want to die to another player."

The reason players do not like PvP is that

PvP is harder. This isn't a major reason, but it is true.

PvP involves emotions. Sometimes nasty ones. Revenge, anger, and so forth.

PvP approximates murder. Some players aren't comfortable with that.

PvP is unpredictable. It involves a different skill set from PvE (Although its a subset of PvE).

I believe 2 & 3 to be the main reasons. You'll see players saying they want PvE bounty hunters to come after them, but not players. The penalty for failure is nearly the same. The loss of time is invariant.

GreenMarine - 6/21/2004

GreenMarine wrote:

Ipseck wrote:
I'd gonna make a few comments about the whole "force pvp" issue. First of all, the term itself is meant to incite people. Second of all, whats the big deal? Whats the difference between fighting an npc and a pc?

I agree that the term is meant to be incindiary. There are different kinds of PvP and "voluntary" and "involuntary" is too black and white. Anyway, the reasons people don't like PvP generally have to do with the emotions involved. Getting beaten by another player can be humiliating. It can be frustrating. It can be depressing. It can be enraging. It approximates violent behavior in a way the player may not be comfortable with. PvP is IS emotionally more charged than PvE.

The result of failure is nearly the same (the player is dead). The fear isn't dying because you ripped off Jabba one too many times. It's having to face all the stuff that comes along with a player vs. player encounter.

GreenMarine - 6/21/2004

GreenMarine wrote:

Rueger_Karde wrote:

Here is a little programming (Im using Java as the example, since thats the

language I use most) You have these things called classes that are chunks of programming.

Funny you mention that, our gameplay code is written in Java.

GreenMarine - 6/21/2004

GreenMarine wrote:

The marine is in green.

Master_Jaydawg wrote:

First off I have to say WOW this sounds great GreenMarine!

Questions:

-You said old sliced items such as weapons and armor would be given the illegality as banned, so is there a plan to change something in the slicing weapons and armor that makes them different illegality levels after the revamp (this only pertains to the act of slicing armor and weapons after the smuggler revamp is in so for example would it be possible to slice somethign and have it only be considered quasi legal or do something drastic to the item and have it be highly illegal)?

Yes. Better slices would be more illegal than weak, newbie slices. This is something to be detailed in the slicing section of our discussion (still a ways off).

-With the smuggler being able to slice the BH terminal to view or reduce someones visibility it was stated that if the smuggler fails slicing he/she automatically ends up on the terminal. Now will the smuggler be able to slice the terminal again immediately and remove themselves from the terminal or are they permnanently stuck on there untill a bh mission on them is either fullfilled or failed?

Obviously I wouldn't let that happen. There was a suggestion to only allow 1 check/attempt per day per player. That's 1 check per player checked, not smuggler doing the checking. So a smuggler could check several people, including themselves, but not more than once for each person.

-Will slicing bh terminals be like a miniature puzzle/game? Will we see this type of slicing implemented elsewhere in the game?

That was my original goal for slicing, but I never had the time to get the art assets for it. I don't know about the future. I'll have to think about it. It would be cool.

-Will other underworld bosses include the likes of Borvo, the Lady Hutt, maybe a Blacksun Vigo?

I'm not familiar with the plans that are set for all of the various underworld bosses, so I'd have to brainstorm with the other designers and see which I can use and which I cannot.

-Will Rebels and Imperials also offer smuggling missions?

It seems reasonable that they could do so.

-Will there be some type of notification to let a smuggler know how much visibility if any they will gain from skimming from a cargo or payment? Ex. You go to take half the cargo for yourself and your character has a thought bubble "Hmm.. Jabba's not gonna like this."

Probably. It depends on what we come up with as a solution for the raging PvP debate.

-Would it be possible to try and get more credits out of whoever your delivering cargo to either by persuasion or threatening? This could result in them deciding they don't want it after all and then you might have to pay jabba out of your own pocket at least if you chose to threaten the buyer.

Possibly. That might be an interesting underworld skill.

GreenMarine - 6/21/2004

GreenMarine wrote:

Okay, I've read everything up to this point. I admit that I did skim through several of the posts at the core of the PvP/PvE debate. Believe me, I've heard all of the arguments on both sides before.

So here's a short summary of a few of my thoughts:

I'm sympathetic to the views of both the PvPers and the PvEers. The raw visibility proposal probably isn't going to be a good solution on its own. Two ideas that I liked: the "infamy" suggestion and the idea of two types of h/lo missions. Actually, the infamy idea includes the two types of missions as a part of its design.

I still like the idea of including the human BHer element. I don't want to eliminate the PvP element completely.

A PvP death alone may not be tough enough punishment. Certainly not when compared to a PvE death.

The devs need to be aware of possible issues with farming faction or working with BHers to farm the visibility system. I think we can solve both of them.

I'm going to think about this discussion for a bit and when I get more time, post something more in depth.

Neither side of the PvP debate is wrong...they are just very different psychological play styles. It is an issue of MMO ideology similar to real world religion. When you get into these debates try to keep a cool head. Everyone plays differently. In SWG, there is room for each of the different play styles. We can find a smuggler design that fits the requirements of being FUN, that involves RISKS, but doesn't require PvP...and at the same time includes PvP as an element.

GreenMarine - 6/21/2004

GreenMarine wrote:

Geevo wrote:

GM ... not sure if you read it already ... what are your thoughts of being able to do the switch idea for PvP vs PvE ...

Take a mission from NPC ... if you choose PvP ... all missions / actions can result in a PvP BH mission .... if you chose PvE ... it could result in a PvE ... (phrased in a roleplay manner)

"Master Smuggler, you have the option for a mission that if you fail, you will have Jabba send a BH after you ... "

"Master Smuggler, you have the option for a mission that if you fail, you will have a price on your head that every bounty hunter in the galaxy will want to ..."

I think if there is a switching mechanism it should be on the acceptance of the mission. I.E.: missions that give visibility clearly say so (i.e., you can say to Jabba, "I'm looking for something a little bit more dangerous." and Jabba says "Stupid smuggler. You'll end up dead. I do have something you can do for me, but only if you feel like risking you life. Ha ha ha ha." or whatever sounds particularly Jabbaish.

I don't like the idea of a dialog popping up saying "pick what kind of BHer you want to come after you, PvP or PvE" That breaks with immersion big time.

GreenMarine - June 21, 2004 Revamp Discussion: Contraband/Missions PART 2 (Solutions)

See this link for part 1:

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=smuggler&message.id=96114

Part 1 reached over 1200 posts in less than a week. Clearly the smuggler & bounty hunter professions care deeply about the design of any kind of smuggling system. I'm really happy with the level of response. A lot of people who don't normally post are chiming in with their opinion and, in general, the discussion has been civil.

I want to try and distill the discussion down and start to find solutions. Here were the three big issues that turned into long discussions.

Summary 1:

The key argument was over the impact of "visibility" punishments for ripping off suppliers or failing smuggling missions. There is a portion of the player base that desires PvP and a portion that does not. The main issue is the possibility of "involuntary PvP" or a player gaining a bounty who wants to be a smuggler but not participate in PvP.

Solution: The solution I like most is to have the mission suppliers offer two types of mission for each skill level. The punishments for failing or cheating a mission then become:

Normal Mission:

You lose NPC faction with that supplier. You lose a small amount of GCW faction if the supplier belongs to a faction. You could possibly be ambushed by thugs from that supplier.

Critical Mission:

Harsher versions of the above + you gain visibility.

The rewards for critical missions would be somewhat higher than normal missions. Also, some types of illegal cargo would only be available via critical missions. The RISK is possible PvP as well as other penalties. The REWARD is rare components (if you cheat the supplier) or better cash.

What about normal players scanned with illegal items? For now, it seems reasonable that we don't add visibility for normal players. That's too much to ask of the player base as a whole. Later, we could possibly add a level of illegality above Highly Illegal (say, Military Class) that gains visibility. It seems wise to leave this area open for future discuss, but not include it in a revamp.

Summary 2:

The second major issue revolved around the punishments for being caught with contraband:

Some players feel that dying isn't enough of a punishment.

Some players recommended a faction hit.

Some players feel that storm troopers are too weak.

Players don't like that only storm troopers scan.

Solution: The solution obviously has several parts. We need to discuss more what the punishments should be. There are a few types of punishment that we can draw from:

Loss of GCW faction.

Loss of NPC faction.

Combat & risk of death.

Confiscation of the illegal goods.

One possibility might be to make it so that the scanning NPC isn't the NPC that attacks. Instead he "calls for backup" and the backup is relative to the player's level. This brings up the possibility of a group of players using a low level smuggler to spawn lower level faction targets. The solution to stopping faction farming of scan spawned NPCs is to prevent them from giving GCW faction. There are many other legitimate ways to gain faction. Even if it seems inconsistant, it does make some sense that the Rebels aren't necessarily going to reward a player for killing troopers just doing their job.

This also means that high level smugglers would be dealing with security forces tougher than your average Stormtrooper.

It seems that we should make more factions other than Imperial scan. Why can't the Rebels scan in a Rebel controlled territory? They aren't going to like spice abuse much either. Rebel commanders could then have some immunity from scans in their home regions. Naboo's Royal Security Force (a neutral faction) might also scan and have their own forces to deal with violators.

Summary 3:

The third major issue was that smugglers are worried that increased punishments for using illegal items, like spices and sliced gear, will cause a depression in their markets.

Solution: Actually, I disagree with this premise. I don't think there will be a market depression. On the contrary, if I do my job right, there will be a market increase. If spices become reasonably competitive with chef food, or complement chef food in some way, more players will buy them. Similarly, we should be able to modify slicing but also retain its value.

This is an issue I need to think about more before I develop a complete opinion.

At this point, we know the arguments from every side in the debate. There have been enough posts for us to understand the views involved. In this thread, let's talk about possible solutions and compromises. Instead of perpetuating the debate on PvP vs. PvE, look for ways that the two views can be reconciled. This is the next key in effective game design for massively multiplayer games.

GreenMarine - 6/21/2004

GreenMarine wrote:

silversaber wrote:

I mean, how hard is it for you guys to make a NPC that has hit points greater than a Player fully buffed? That can see through FD? That can go through any wall? That can have twice the firepower than any player can have?

Message Edited by silversaber on 06-22-2004 12:01 AM

The point isn't to create an insurmountable challenge. We can ensure the PvE smuggling missions will be fun and challenging for all players according to their skill level.

The addition of missions with a visibility/PvP/bounty aspect is to enhance the game for the players who are interested in pursuing that kind of gameplay. It doesn't exclude PvEers from anything but what they want to be excluded from.

silversaber wrote:

So, why are we going to be stuck with lesser missions with a lesser reward?

Message Edited by silversaber on 06-22-2004 12:01 AM

All due respect, but that's a very loaded statement. The quality of the missions and the quality of the reward will be worthwhile. The only difference is that there is a path for PvPers and that path includes additional rewards. Why? Because of the increased risk. While not every bounty hunter is awesome at his job, some will be. In my original post, I also pointed out that the other punishments will also be more severe. The increased risk doesn't only include the potential PvP.

Visibility decreases over time. There's nothing preventing you from occaisionally taking a high risk mission. If you manage your visibility well, you won't have to be involved in PvP. But you would be walking the line...and getting improved rewards for your increased risk.

silversaber wrote:

No matter how tasty the Devs try make the GCW PvP look,
the PK mentality of PvPrs will poison it for the rest of the Players.

Message Edited by silversaber on 06-22-2004 12:01 AM

This simply isn't true. While you may not enjoy PvP, or you may have had bad experiences, a large number of the player base regularly play PvP. You know it's important for the devs to have a realistic view of the game. It's just as important that you have one.

We make an effort to design systems that appeal to both PvE and PvP players. You have to find a way to compromise your view with that of the PvPers, because they aren't going away, just as you like to remind PvPers that you aren't going away.

GreenMarine - 6/22/2004

GreenMarine wrote:

On the issue of needing to be factioned to be TEF'd to be attacked by stormtroopers...

What if attacks from contraband violations ignore faction or come from "unfactioned" versions of the NPCs? I'm not sure if this meshes with Keldarin's plans for GCW consistancy, so I have to talk to him, but this would mean that being scanned and attacked would not result in a faction TEF. You wouldn't suddenly get ganked by other factional players because you were scanned.

This also solves the farming problem, because these NPCs would no longer give faction points.

Just one possibility...