Smuggler Archive
Thread: Revamp Discussion: Contraband/Missions PART 2 (Solutions)
Chacara
Wed Jun 23, 2004 5:38 am
#235
Organ wrote:
I just feel the need to throw in my two cents. To the smuggler concerned about being dragged into PvP with bounty hunters I say this: The Dirty Fighting Tree is full of techniques that are meant to get the smuggler out of desperate situations or situations they can't handle. I'd say coming toe-to-toe with a bounty hunter would be one such situations, so allow the smuggler more abilities to escape. Allow smugglers the ability to call out their vehicles during combat, without delay with a signifigant blow to vehicles condition or use of the smugglers HAM.
Let me paint a scene of how it would work: We have our dashingsmuggler, Ikachiceh Organ, who has just royally screwed over the Jabba Faction. Ika appears on the bounty hunter terminals and someone takes the job. The bounty hunter finds Ika and engages him in combat. Ika delays the bounty hunter with Panic Shot long enough to pull out his swoop bike and make an escape. Ika then proceeds to risk removing himself from the bounty hunter terminal by slicing into it (as proposed before). I think that smugglers making daring escapes from their pursuers would make for a great time, and it allows the more clever bounty hunters to find ways to stop their prey from making such escapes.
The techniques in the Dirty Fighting tree aren't very good at evading anything. Maybe if feign death actually made you look dead... right now it just leaves you a target for black barring.
I think expanding the underworld aspect of the game should include Bounty Hunters as well. If you fail too many missions for bounties you get put on the bounty list yourself ("You have failed me for the last time!") or for factioned Bounty Hunters, if you're too good ("We've recieved dozens of reports of Soren killing our opperatives, Sir." "Hire someone to remove this annoyance then.") This could lead to some give and take in the underworld...
Taking from the example above: Ika comes under fire from the bounty hunter. "Hey Soren! I hear Jabba's after you!"
Soren scowls. "What of it?"
Ika peeks around the corner. "How 'bout you forget you ever saw me, and I'll arrange for him to think you're dead?"
Soren considers. "Alright, but I'm going with you to the terminal. If you're jerking me around, you're dead meat."
The nice thing about this is, bounty hunters are already disposed towards PvP so we shouldn't have the PvE vs. PvP argument to contend with. It also keeps the smuglers from just being a row of victims, they actually might be of service to the bounty hunter.
GerrinBiH
Wed Jun 23, 2004 6:17 am
#236
GreenMarine wrote:
Summary 1: The key argument was over the impact of "visibility" punishments for ripping off suppliers or failing smuggling missions. There is a portion of the player base that desires PvP and a portion that does not. The main issue is the possibility of "involuntary PvP" or a player gaining a bounty who wants to be a smuggler but not participate in PvP.
Solution: The solution I like most is to have the mission suppliers offer two types of mission for each skill level. The punishments for failing or cheating a mission then become:
- Normal Mission: You lose NPC faction with that supplier. You lose a small amount of GCW faction if the supplier belongs toa faction. You could possibly be ambushed by thugs from that supplier.
- CriticalMission: Harsher versions of the above + you gain visibility.
The rewards for critical missions would be somewhat higher than normal missions. Also, some types of illegal cargo would only be available via critical missions. The RISK is possible PvP as well as other penalties. The REWARD is rare components (if you cheat the supplier) or better cash.
What about normal players scanned with illegal items? For now, it seems reasonable that we don't add visibility for normal players. That's too much to ask of the player base as a whole. Later, we could possibly add a level of illegality above Highly Illegal (say, Military Class) that gains visibility. It seems wise to leave this area open for future discuss, but not include it in a revamp.
I like the idea of two types of missions, but not the limiting of the best components to only "critical" missions. Here's how I think it should work:
Normal smuggling missions can be obtained from any NPC of a particular faction. The components involved will have a chance of being of the rare variety (i.e., the same reward as a critical mission).This chance is based upon the player's current faction standing. The reward for completing the mission will be the stated cash payment plus a small faction gain. Failure to deliver the component on time or stealing the component results in a large faction penalty and a TEF.
Once a smuggler has maxed out a particular faction (+5000 Jabba, for example),they are then eligible to take on critical missions. These missions are only given out by the highest ranking members of a faction, like Jabba and have a much higher chance of dealing witha rare component. Successfully completing these missions gives large financial rewards. Failure means a large faction hit, increased visability and potentially listing on BH terminals.
Onceany faction hits -5000, then the player will besubject to occasional random attacks (spawns) by NPCs affiliated with that faction.
To prevent farming:
-All smuggling missions have a timer and must be completed before that timer expires.
-All components that are related to a smuggling mission are non-tradeable for the duration of the mission.
-When any smuggling mission fails,the componentremains non-tradeable for a period of time (an hour of play time?). If the smuggler is killed by an NPC of the appropriate faction while thecomponent is flagged non-tradeable, the component is confiscated.
-A maximum of two smuggling missions can be taken at once (same as regular missions).
-Failed missions remain "active" for the duration that the component is still flagged non-tradeable.
nindustrial
Wed Jun 23, 2004 6:34 am
#237
RellikCro wrote:
What do you think of my idea of different loot (focused more for PvP combat like... perhaps introduce special stat boosters specifically for GCW, faction, and PvP related items) and military type loot (extremely high illegal) like per haps very high end slices and spices? Or spices without downer affect?
In this proposal it would also induce visibilty to the gen playerbase for those items also.
Message Edited by RellikCro on 06-22-2004 03:59 PM
Now, I don't know if I'm slightly mis-understanding your proposal here, but I would like to point out that if you're talking about attaching only PvP focused loot to go with PvP missions, I don't think it's a very equitable solution.
Here's why:
I am mainly a PvE player, have never tried PvP; however, I'm not completely opposed to the play-style. As a result, I would most likely be interested in running the Critical Missions that risk being hunted by a PC BH, because I believe that would be a very fun prospect. I havelittle to interest in participating in the GCW though. As a result, if I want to choose Critical Missionsbecause of the PC BHs, I do not want to be stuck with GCW and general PvP geared items.
Your ideas are good, though. The change I would make (or maybe I misunderstood and this is sort of what you intended along), is to provide some sort of loot option whenchoosing a Critical Mission; this way, I can still recieve the PvE rewards if I wish while being able to be involved with PC BHs at the same time. The GCW and PvP geared loot idea for Critical Missions would still be available for those who do regularly participate in those aspects.
What do you think of that?
JediArashi
Wed Jun 23, 2004 8:21 am
#239
I was curious about that too Vampirerobot....
hmmm......
-Arashi
Bloodfin
Vampirerobot
Wed Jun 23, 2004 8:21 am
#240
nindustrial wrote:
RellikCro wrote:
What do you think of my idea of different loot (focused more for PvP combat like... perhaps introduce special stat boosters specifically for GCW, faction, and PvP related items) and military type loot (extremely high illegal) like per haps very high end slices and spices? Or spices without downer affect?
In this proposal it would also induce visibilty to the gen playerbase for those items also.
Message Edited by RellikCro on 06-22-2004 03:59 PM
Now, I don't know if I'm slightly mis-understanding your proposal here, but I would like to point out that if you're talking about attaching only PvP focused loot to go with PvP missions, I don't think it's a very equitable solution.
Here's why:
I am mainly a PvE player, have never tried PvP; however, I'm not completely opposed to the play-style. As a result, I would most likely be interested in running the Critical Missions that risk being hunted by a PC BH, because I believe that would be a very fun prospect. I havelittle to interest in participating in the GCW though. As a result, if I want to choose Critical Missionsbecause of the PC BHs, I do not want to be stuck with GCW and general PvP geared items.
Exactly. Everybody needs to step back and think about this for a minute. Being hunted by a Player Bounty Hunter once in a while is not the same as being Overt and subject to attack by anyone at any time. I expect nearly every Smuggler to be intrigued by the possibility of being Bountied, and to try it out the Critical Missions at least once if not on a regular basis.
This system should be designed so that Smugglers can choose their level of Risk/Reward however they choose to define it. PvE risk is obviously determined by Mission Difficulty level, and "PvP" risk is determined by the visibility gain associated with your actions.
But in order to have that choice, we have to develop both the penalties for visibility (Player Bounties) and the process for gaining it (Critical Missions). So set aside the PvE/PvP debate and let's talk about how visibility and Bounties should work.
And like I said above, specialized "niche" rewards for "PvP" missions are not appropriate. The people who will be running these missions are not PKers or even hardcore PvPers. Think about it, it's a Smuggler who says "Gee, I'd like to try out those Critical Missions and maybe get hunted by a Bounty Hunter if I get enough visibility." The rewards should simply be desirable items and payment commensurate with the risk involved.
Specifically, here is my suggestion for "Critical Rewards":
- Focus the rewards for Critical Missions (which increase visibility) on the visibility risk/reward system (not PvP).
- Grant "Critical Slicing Tools" that grant a slicing bonus, but increase Visibility when used.
- Grant "Critical Spice Additives" that allow the creation of superior spice (like BE Chef food) but increases visibility when used or traded to another player.
- Grant a "visibilty decrease" as a reward.
- Grant "Tracking Decoys" to throw off Bounty Hunters tracking droids.
- And of course grant the traditional money/loot/etc in a greater amount than in non-Critical missions.
This way Smugglers can determine for themselves how deep into the visibility (or what I have called "Infamy" in the past) system they want to go, choosing to perform Critical Missions or not, and to use Critical Smuggling Items or not. If you want to lead the life of a constantly Bountied Smuggler, so be it. If not you can play it a little safer and keep your visibility low, but still have access to all the Critical Stuff (just in a lower volume). And maybe you occasionally get Bountied and have a lot of fun being chased around the Galaxy.
I think Smuggler Bounties themselves should be a lot more involved than they currently are with Jedi, but that's for another thread I imagine.
HOTDOG
Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:11 am
#241
Vampirerobot wrote:BLOCKQUOTE>Wait, what's the difference between Infamy and visibility in this scenario? Aren't they the same thing?
Infamy:
Is a meter of how infamous you are with authority types- Cor Sec, Imps, Fed Dub, etc. The most brutal punishment an Infamous player will recieve will be PvE oriented- such as a squad of hard core Cor Secs dropping down on you in the middle of the wilderness and attacking you- or being attacked on sight as you enter city/starport.
You earn Infamy everytime you ARE CAUGHT commiting acts that are deemed "quasi-legal" or "Banned" such as carrying sliced weapons, slicing armor, or being under the influence of spice.
Visibility:
Is a measure of how visibile you are to people who might want you dead- This would lead to the ultimate PvP punishment- A Bounty on your head.
You earn Visibility for BEING CAUGHT doing things that are Highly-Illegal, Swindling of mob bosses or GCW oriented crimes- like slicing names off of the BH terminals, smuggling plans/info for the GCW, Possesion of/Selling Glitterstim or Skimming off of critical missions.
Basically anything that would make someone want to kill you.
Dig it?
This way you can see how a player can juggle their infamy and visibility. I should point out that most things that earn you visibilty earn you infamy as well.
A careless player could literally be on the run all the time
As someone mentioned earlier- a REALLY good punishment for being caught with illegal items is not to confiscate them but to have them LOCKED in your inventory for a period of time. That rocks!
Message Edited by HOTDOG on 06-23-2004 09:17 AM
DaPrez
Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:14 am
#242
So could the smugglers who do not want to be engaged by Bounty Hunters(because of the risk I would suspect) be given lets say mission terms (that provide less payout) and the smugglers that are willing to go the PvP route they can have "shady" contacts such as the rodian in the back corner of the cantina, someone in Jabbas palace(maybe him) or something other than the normal mission terminal. Im not knocking the players that dont want to PvP and I dont think their missions should be risk free its just that smuggling has to(in my opinion)be based on a risk = reward basis. What more risk than to have a bounty hunter tracking you down.
Message Edited by DaPrez on 06-23-2004 12:16 PM
Vampirerobot
Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:34 am
#243
Is it necessary to have two different types of Smuggler ratings? Couldn't you just have one, and at the early levels it causes regional authorities to go after you, and at higher levels Bounty Hunters? Two seems like extra work (although it is more specific, granted).
HOTDOG wrote:
Infamy:
Is a meter of how infamous you are with authority types- Cor Sec, Imps, Fed Dub, etc. The most brutal punishment an Infamous player will recieve will be PvE oriented- such as a squad of hard core Cor Secs dropping down on you in the middle of the wilderness and attacking you- or being attacked on sight as you enter city/starport.
You earn Infamy everytime you ARE CAUGHT commiting acts that are deemed "quasi-legal" or "Banned" such as carrying sliced weapons, slicing armor, or being under the influence of spice.
Visibility:
Is a measure of how visibile you are to people who might want you dead- This would lead to the ultimate PvP punishment- A Bounty on your head.
You earn Visibility for BEING CAUGHT doing things that are Highly-Illegal, Swindling of mob bosses or GCW oriented crimes- like slicing names off of the BH terminals, smuggling plans/info for the GCW, Possesion of/Selling Glitterstim or Skimming off of critical missions.
Basically anything that would make someone want to kill you.
Dig it?
This way you can see how a player can juggle their infamy and visibility. I should point out that most things that earn you visibilty earn you infamy as well.
A careless player could literally be on the run all the time
As someone mentioned earlier- a REALLY good punishment for being caught with illegal items is not to confiscate them but to have them LOCKED in your inventory for a period of time. That rocks!
Message Edited by HOTDOG on 06-23-2004 09:17 AM
Smuggler_Caylin
Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:43 am
#244
If they were linked, it would be too easy for the PVE players finding themselves with a PVP consequence.
If they are seperate and able to be operated on seperatly, then there is no reason for concern.
Infamy (or a law abiding faction)is just something I've always seen as an easily placed faction on our character info. We could monitor it and adjust it within a PVE environment.
One of the Four Horsemen of the Smuggler Apocalypse! 
GKM
Wed Jun 23, 2004 10:26 am
#245
Ternque01 wrote:
How about this instead?
High risk = deliver 1000 units of glitterstim component A for a reward of 10 Nym enhanced vibromotors. You may be able to skim 100 units and not get caught. If you get caught be either patrol or from skimming, you get 100 Infamy points and a100 visibility points.
Low (no) risk = deliver 100 untis of glitterstim component A for a reward of 1 Nym enhanced vibromotors. You may be able to skim 10 units and not get caught. If you get caught by either patrol or from skimming, you get 100 Infamy points (or 10) and absolutely zero visibility points.
This way even a PvE minded smuggler can still earn the same types of rewards from their missions, but since they are low (no) risk, you don't earn as many potentially from a skim-job.
Instead of High risk Low risk missions how about this: Military and non-military missions
Military Missions = Military weapons/enhancements/AA's/CA's/Armor Components You gain visibility doing these type of missions
Spice Run Missions = Spice enhancing components, for example components that can enhance the duration of spice effects or enahnce the strength of their effects. You gain no visibility doing these type of missions
Ternque01
Wed Jun 23, 2004 11:06 am
#246
GKM wrote:
Instead of High risk Low risk missions how about this: Military and non-military missions
Military Missions = Military weapons/enhancements/AA's/CA's/Armor Components You gain visibility doing these type of missions
Spice Run Missions = Spice enhancing components, for example components that can enhance the duration of spice effects or enahnce the strength of their effects. You gain no visibility doing these type of missions
What the hell does Jabba need military goods for? If anything his thugs are equiped with randomly aquired weaponry (sliced no doubt). Gangsters arent the military - they are like a business entity with a good Sears shotgun. They don't deal in high tech military weaponry. They aren't terrorists.
Maybe factionalized smugglers can take the military missions, but they would be smuggling for their faction, not Jabba the Hutt. You won't go to Jabba's palace and get an option to smuggle for the rebellion or the empire. Doesn't make sense.
Maybe you could go to a special "Rebel Smuggling Outpost" or "Imperial Illicit Item Requisition Outpost" to take a military goods smuggling mission.
Sounds like a pain in the ass. My bet is that just coding smugglers to work for crime bosses would make the most sense. Smugglers deal with underworld bosses. Having smugglers smuggle for factions isa great idea, but that would be more to code. Being able to smuggle illegal guns for the rebellion past Imperial blockades has always been a dream of mine (kinda like the one where I go to Endor and burn Ewoks alive with aflamethrower - but that is my deepest fantasy).
Then again, I think in my mind that there is a HUGE distinction between the characteristics of an underworld smuggler and a professional factional smuggler. Accommodating the two characters seems to be a bit of a challenge under one smuggler profession. For instance, a factional smuggler might be military trained for combat - underworld smugglers would use dirty fighting tactics. Also an underworld smuggler wouldn't buy military faction, while a factional smugg would. Try going to run missions for Jabba as a Rebel smuggler and see how hard you get laughed at in his throne room.
My point is that there is a distinction. A resolution to my "idea discrepancy" here is that Rebels and Imperials actually hire underworld smugglers to do their bidding. We know that the Empire uses Black Sun in secret (shhhh don't let it out). Maybe the Rebels pay smugglers on the side to move stuff. Who knows? Just playing around here 
Message Edited by Ternque01 on 06-23-2004 01:08 PM
HOTDOG
Wed Jun 23, 2004 11:49 am
#247
Idunno, Ternque. I think it would be possible under the proposal that GM has now- although I don't necessarily like the idea of seperating missions by military and non- military.
I could see faction recruiters giving out missions to meet an NPC at this WP and then that NPC would tell you to smuggle weapons past certain blockades or to smuggle plans (in the case of the Empire).
Also, those random factional NPCs that spawn in the wilderness sometimes have missions like this- that would be cool too.
What I am afraid of is that it might come down that missions that give visibility HAVE to be factional (Reb/Imp)- thus keeping PvP in the GCW. Which would be cool by me but I think less immersive.
I could see faction recruiters giving out missions to meet an NPC at this WP and then that NPC would tell you to smuggle weapons past certain blockades or to smuggle plans (in the case of the Empire).
Also, those random factional NPCs that spawn in the wilderness sometimes have missions like this- that would be cool too.
What I am afraid of is that it might come down that missions that give visibility HAVE to be factional (Reb/Imp)- thus keeping PvP in the GCW. Which would be cool by me but I think less immersive.