Smuggler Archive

You know what, I'm going to repost this once, just to see if you'll take my advice, the same advice I gave in most of my posts in this thread to date. I'll even highlight the pertinent section. This is my final attempt at anything worthwhile in this thread.

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StGabriel wrote:
Oh, God willing...
Is it really so painful to read opinions that differ from your own?
StGabe.

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I had removed myself from this thread, but I have to comment here.

The pain is in having to reiterate the same points over and over, as though beating our heads against a wall, to try to get people, apparently like you, to actually understand what is being said.

I do not know you personally, and I hope I have not come across as attacking you. That is not my intention. However, you seem to be completely incapable of comprehending that which is being stated, logically and with supportive arguments. This is where the perceived "pain" comes from. I welcome differing opinions and the chance to debate. You have not provided that because everything you have stated does not take into account the nature of this "debate."

I'll urge you one last time to go back, read my first response to you in its entirety, quote it, and respond to each point. Then we can see if you can provide an argument that holds water.

I'm removing myself yet again from this thread, and hopefully will not feel the need to comment yet another time.

If you want slicing kits, then you are going to have to allow self-use Stimpacks (of all sizes), Woundpacks (same, Rez kits, and buffs. Because, it's simply too much of a hassle and it's too boring to sit around and heal damage, wounds, and get buffed.....also, I don't choose to go the the cloning center when I die so I have to hassle with finding a Doc to Rez me.

Well first of all medics are dedicated to the task of helping other players, meanwhile smugglers are hybrids and already have their own specials, their own crafting line and slicing which is pretty much mandatory for all players. Secondly I am still able to hunt without stim packs it is simply harder. With magseals working I will not be able to get magseal loot at all without a Smuggler.

Why not instead add a bonus to loot when I have a smuggler. Therefore I am strongly encouraged to have a smuggler along. My changes of getting good loot are significantly increased and a Smuggler gives an ability that I alone do not have. However when I am not fundamentally blocked from content without a smuggler. Much like not having a person with med skills around I simply have a harder time of doing what I want to do.

StGabe.

You aren't being understood because logical reasoning is just flying right past your head. Youre trying to use all these slice numbers when the simple matter is sliced items are a perk and everyone would have the same risk except smugglers would have higher evasion 'chances'. You act like contraband would only affect you. Look how scans work now? You don't need any smuggler skills to pass a scan your chances are just better at passing them as a smuggler.

You've continually harped on the same ideas, not lending anything to back up your side.

And here's where there's the disjunct.

I am offering a lot of content in my posts and I fear that you are simply reading over it.

I have re-approached the same issue from several different angles giving several perspectives on why I disagree with the arguments here.

In real life I am academic. I write papers for conferences and journals, submit them and get feedback and I also provide feedback on other people's papers. I myself have plenty of experience here. I am giving you as much as I can to backup my viewpoint here and I think that there is a lot to be found. I suggest that you step back a bit and look at what I have posted to see this.

StGabe.

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StGabriel wrote:
You've continually harped on the same ideas, not lending anything to back up your side.

And here's where there's the disjunct.

I am offering a lot of content in my posts and I fear that you are simply reading over it.

Nope, I read every word. I even reread them before I post.

I have re-approached the same issue from several different angles giving several perspectives on why I disagree with the arguments here.

No, you've gone to the extent of quoting ridiculous examples that do not compare to what the debate is about.

In real life I am academic. I write papers for conferences and journals, submit them and get feedback and I also provide feedback on other people's papers. I myself have plenty of experience here. I am giving you as much as I can to backup my viewpoint here and I think that there is a lot to be found. I suggest that you step back a bit and look at what I have posted to see this.

Then do what you should have done in the first place. Go back, start with the first poster if you like, but quote teh response in its entirety and refute the points with logical examples. This is the part you have yet to actually do, and the arguments you have made cannot be logically reasoned. I do many things IRL. I'm an IT Manager in a Credit Union, meaning I have a heck of a lot more than just management to work with. I have to draft policies and procedures, create projects, etc. that requires me to take information to the CEO and Board of Directors and, basically, argue my case. I also do Independant Film locally, and because my company is so small I have to fill many roles. All of these include cooperating with others, and many times arguing a point. I know that this means what it takes is to state your position, cite good examples, and prove your point through the use of LOGICAL examples.

Try Again Gabe.

StGabe.

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StGabriel wrote:
There is a give and take here. As contraband is less powerful it is more reasonable to imply restrictions on it. As contraband is more powerful it is less reasonable to do this and there are more balance issues involved.

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I apologize for the double post -- my browser has gone completely insane.

Gabe - You have had to deal with a lot of heated posts and sarcasm in this thread. I have one question I would like for you to answer, but I want you to realize that I am not being sarcastic or aggressive towards you in any way. I appreciate you coming in here to try to create discussion on the subject. I will say that I completely agree with most of my fellow smugglers' arguments if not their tone and sarcasm. Now to my question:

Do you realize that smugglers CAN NOT slice mag-seal containers?

We have no better chance of opening them then you do, Gabe. I hope that this changes soon, and I think smugglers should be the only ones who can open them. If you don't know a smuggler who is online when you want to hit a dungeon, coordinate a time with him/her when he/she will be on. You can contract a smuggler to go down into a dungeon with you to provide you with loot from one of those containers. It would just require planning on your part. And, by the way, I think the idea of some caves being "locked" due to vegetation overgrowth is a really cool idea. I would gladly search out a swordsman to hack through the vines and such covering the entrance to a cave. I know you were being satirical, but frankly, your idea has some merit.

As far as the scans go, I have to say that you are using illegal goods and should therefore be penalized if caught with them. Enough said. Smugglers have to deal with this as well even though we get a bonus to passing the scans. I am sure that we grant that bonus to other players with whom we are grouped, but I can't say for sure. I have never been asked to group with anyone to aid in that particular situation. It wouldappear that dependence on smugglers doesn't seem to be that big of an issue. Especially when no one is depending on us.

In fact, you brought up a good point when you said that it is a hassle for you, as a covert rebel, to get caught by a scan as you have no interest in PvP whatsoever. Well, we smugglers have an entire skill tree dedicated to the GCW and PvP - Underworld. The only bonus neutral smugglersget AT ALL in that tree is our bonus to passing the contraband scans. Unfortunately for those of us who want nothing to do with the Galactic Civil War or Player versus Player combat, we still need to sink 14 skill points into a tree that is completely focused on those two things. You could argue that we don't need to invest those skill points. We could just go up the other three trees. But then, who would ever allow us to slice their gear? Eveyone wants a Master Smuggler toimprove their weapons and armordue to the tiny little bonus they MIGHT get on the slices.

Just tring to give you some perspective from a smuggler standpoint.

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Message Edited by Torryn_Kel on 03-24-2004 09:14 AM

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StGabriel wrote:

...Swordsman and fencers have little profession specific content.

...Swordsman and Fencers DO need a role in the game just as much as Smugglers.

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StGabriel wrote:

Let's look at what slicing does:

A 35% speed slice on a power hammer means a 53% incrase in damage.

A 35% effectiveness slice on 67% armor means a 330% increase in the effectiveness of that armor.

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I may not be a rocket scientist (well, I am, but that's a different story) but I fail to see how these numbers add up.

A 35% increase in speed would result in approximately one extra attack every three, which translates to a 25% increase or so. [Edit: looking at the DPS calculator on www.killyourpc.org/swg, I can see how you'd get an increase in 53% to your DPS, but I'm not entirely sold on that formula.]

A 35% increase in effectiveness on the armor would make it 90%, which doesn't translate to 330% improvement in damage attenuation.

I realize that this is a minor point, but it may highlight the fact that the general population thinks slicing is far more effective than it really is.

Message Edited by Sapperlight on 03-24-2004 12:57 PM

The fact that performing arithmetic correctly hinges on my grouping with a calculator is incredibly unbalancing. We need a math nerf!

Sorry -- couldn't resist.

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StGabriel wrote:
Perhaps my last post.

I hope that, as you read over my stuff you bear in mind that I am only rendering a player opinion. If you have the perception that this opinion will have very much effect on the design process then I think you're wrong (from what I've seen as a correspondent). The only way it can do this is if some in the community agree with me (and personal attacks aside, my PM's tend to indicate that several do indeed agree).

Anyway, here is an example (a frivolous but appropriate one) that I think best illustrates my points:

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Swordsman and fencers have little profession specific content. As seen in George Lucas films (Indiana Jones), swords can be used to clear out jungle and forest matter that might get in the way of movement. So as to provide new content and a niche for swordsman and fencers we ask that restrictive terrain be added to the game. It is obvious that such terrain would indeed exist and we think that this will add more realism to the game.

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The system:
Players who have armor (wearing or in the inventory) will have a chance on certain planets to get stuck in jungle or forest terrain. They will be dismounted and have to stand in one spot for 10 minutes while they free themselves and will not be able to use specials. There will also be a chance that predators will come by and attack them while they are sitting there.

A swordsman or fencer may, at any time, free these people through the use of a Rykk Blade or Cleaver.

Furthermore, the entrances to several new dungeons will be blocked by jungle and forest matter preventing entry unless you are grouped with a Swordsman or Fencer.

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Argument for the system:
This will provide new content for swordsmen and fencers making them desired for groups and giving them a role in the game. If players do not wish to risk this problem the answer is simple: they can CHOOSE not to use armor or carry it in their inventory or they can have a Swordsman or Fencer with them at all times. Obviously players cannot expect to have access to all content with any skill set, thus the change in new dungeons is completely justified.

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The story is stupid, but who cares. Swordsman and Fencers DO need a role in the game just as much as Smugglers. This example uses all of the arguments posted against my statement and yet this system, I think, is obviously just obnoxious to other players. If Swordsmen were to suggest such a change I would expect and welcome commentary from players of all professions saying that is simply too obnoxious for their own playstyle. Many systems that players may desire for their professions necessarily impact other professions.

This example is very silly and somewhat satirical but I could easily have come up with a more serious version that would have entailed the same effects. Now imagine 15 professions asking for such changes. I hope you see the point. Changes that add content to one profession at the expense of existing options for other professions will not be "fun" for other professions. Instead of working on such prohibitory systems it will be better to provide new ways in which professions can complement each other. This still allows other professions to have unique abilities, to be desired in groups, etc., but does not require that other professions lose time and "fun" in order to create new content.

End of story, simple enough.

StGabe.

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Gabe,

There are a few problems with your example here. For starters, as has been pointed out, swordsman do have a specific role in the game, and one which they are performing currently and have been performing since launch -- they weild swords. On this issue alone, your argument about the swordsman's role vs. the smuggler's role is an apples : oranges argument. But, I'll even do you one better. Let's define swordsmen as a specific class of players who are adept at close combat with edged weapons, and who have a general damage to speed ratio that ends up being roughly mid-range damage to mid-range speed (as opposed to fencers who are low damage, high speed or pikemen who are high damage, low speed, or TKAs who have their own ratio, but use only their fists or vibroknucklers). Now, I'll grant you, swordsmen could use a more DISTINCT role, but make no mistake: as an extension of "brawler" you guys are ideally supposed to be the tanks and, for the most part, are able to perform that role (though obvious tweaks would be nice, as would distinctions among and between the various brawler elites). Your role is close combat. In a group setting, your role is to hold off the badguys at close range, while your long-range buddies (who have weaker defenses than you and are less effective at close range) pound away at the enemy. That's a fairly well-defined role, and one that rewards both solo play and interactive group play.

Now compare that with smugglers.

The key problem that we face with respect to our role is that we don't HAVE a role. The closest thing that you could say about the role of the smuggler, the only unifying trend among our fairly disparate skill trees, is that we're sort of generic scoundrels. One thing we definitely do NOT do is what we're named for -- smuggling. There's nothing to smuggle and no way to smuggle it. Our role, such as it is, has become (as defined not by an overarching theme to our skills, but by the individual skills themselves) the role of the walking powerup dispenser. We give slices. We give spice. That's about it in terms of our role in the game. We're weak fighters, one of our trees is effectively pointless (underworld), and our only interactive role derives from the two powerup treesI just mentioned. Aside from that, our role APPEARS to be to create "atmosphere". By calling what we do "illegal" (even if it's hardly ever enforced), our presence makes things more "star warsy" (even if it doesn't actually). This would be further reinforced as our "role" in the game if we were to be saddled with a mini-game as our only true smuggling content. We'd become like the bounty hunters were before they got jedi bounties, except less useful in specific situations (IE: combat). That's a huge problem.

To provide you with a comparison in your own profession, imagine the following. Let's say that there is no brawler profession that feeds directly into swordsmen. Instead, you're required to learn one tree from Medic and Terrain Negotiation from Scout. Instead of your current skill trees and role in the game, let's say that the devs gave you the following four trees:

(1) Fencing footwork -- climbing the tree allows you to dodge more effectively. Title is "Blade Dancer".

(2) Sword Grips -- Climbing this tree gives you, at your first box, +100 to knife wielding. Since knives are not certed weapons, most people train this ability within their first hour of the game. Cost is 75000 medic XP. At your second box, you get "Fast Grip Shifting." There is no description provided for this skill in the box itself, but the Holocron indicates that "Swordsmen learn how to move on the fly. A good swordsman can shift his grip rapidly and thereby surprise an opponent in mid-combat." Cost is 125000 Medic XP. At your third box, you get "Targeted Strikes". Again, no description provided in the box itself, but the holocron says "Swordsmen learn the vulnerable parts of anatomy and learn to coordinate deadly strikes in these specific areas." Cost is 150000 Medic XP. Finally, at the fourth box, you get "Improved Grip Shifting", which apparently gives you the ability to move quickly in combat (as opposed to being frozen in one place). A neat skill, but is it worth the 175000 Medic XP you have to spend to get it? Your title is "Master of Blinding Hands". Neat, huh?

(3) Balance Technique -- Climbing this tree gives you partial immunity or resists to various attack types (melee, ranged, etc.). Title is "Master of Focus."

(4) Fortitude -- Climbing this tree grants you partial immunity or resists to various damage types (acid, cold, etc.). Title is "Damage Soaker."

Now, what's missing from all of this? These are pretty cool trees, right? I mean, you DO get some great abilities. But, what's missing.... Oh yeah!! SWORDS!! Nowhere in your tree does it indicate that you get certed for various weapons, and nowhere do you gain speed mods or special attacks with those weapons. It's as if they designed your class, but forgot to give you what your class was supposed to do!

Now THAT would be like the smuggler profession. In that case, asking for improvements to your profession that give you a role in the game, that make you valuable, and that let you do what you are SUPPOSED to be doing are perfectly reasonable. Asking for special attacks or damage/speed mods would likely piss people off too. They'd say "Hey! Swordsmen can already dodge and soak damage and stuff! Giving them special attacks and speed mods and new weapons would take away from my experience! You'd be FORCING me to take swordsman to use what I can already use! If I can use a knife, why can't I use a sword? They're just longer knives, after all."

I imagine that you'd respond with something like, "Well, yes, swords are longer knives in a sense, but using one requires extensive training and such. Besides, what swordsmen do you know who CAN'T USE SWORDS?? You know, all I wanted was to be a swordsman. To use swords. I'd GLADLY give up these defense and damage mods if I could get that ability. But no, you should not get the ability yourself. That'd be giving away the swordsman's role in the game, the swordsman's SKILLS in the game without requiring you to spend skill points to get them. You made a choice to be the profession you are. I chose swordsman. You can't have it all, man."

Fundamentally, smugglers are not asking for ANCILLARY and UNRELATED skills like you outlined in your above-quoted scenario. Smugglers are asking for a specific ROLE in the game and the ability to do what we're SUPPOSED to be doing and what we're NAMED for. That's fundamentally different from saying "In addition to the clearly functioning and well defined, if somewhat undistinguished role I play, I'd like to ask for new skills that inhibit other players." We're asking "We'd like to do what we're supposed to do, and yes, it would force players to make choices and accept consequences, but without that, we'll never have a reasonfor being in the game, and anyway, the playing field would still be level -- it's not as if by imposing taxes and contraband on ALL players that SOME players would have an advantage over others."