Smuggler Archive
Thread: No screams, no hugs, just a hard look at the CU docs.
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SmugglinZane
Wed Mar 30, 2005 6:42 am
#1
I brought this up in the profession role thread, Ragnaat brought it up in another thread here, and I want EVERYONE to take a hard look at this so I'm making a thread about it. This is not speculation, this is based on information in documents. So claim what you want, but I took a long hard look at them last night, this is legitmate.
Once again, like with the FD debacle, I see the potential for Smuggler dabbling to be seriously FOTM and much more beneficial than driving down the road to Master Smuggler. Specials are now interchangeable with weapons. Good intentions, bad judgement, at least for our profession.
There will always be a huge benefit to controling combat tempo/controlling your opponents actions. Any and all ranged professions will want this. If you doubt me, look at /warcry. Look at the what the stackers go for now. Now where does that get us? It puts us in the same position we were in with FD and Panic Shot. Specials, that in a Smuggler's hands are balanced, but in the hands of others cause a player to control it all. You can talk about how "balanced" things will be all you want, but balance in a game does nothing to change human nature. Our specials will either have to be weak to avoid an overpowerful stacker, or they will be good and attract others and/or will be the subject of nerfcry as soon as it hits TC.
Simply put, who won't want the ability to delay your opponent so that you can smash them with your high damage attacks?
Unfortunately, I cannot see a solution. They want things interchangeable, and no matter how powerful any Master Smuggler box special is, we'll still be the dabbled profession. The dabbled profession, and worthwhile delays/combat controlling specials have been destroyed by this. We had to stand by while other players/professions got Panic Shot and FD nerfed. I refuse to go down that road again.
I really look forward to testing this. I really hope the CU has it's intended outcome, and that we're not hamstrung on future development because they're spending months fixing bugs. I find the CU quite intriguing, and I'm actually looking forward to seeing what it does to the game, but I also worry. I worry that it's just a reset, and we'll be back at square one travelling down the same road we've been down already.
I'm bringing this up now so that everyone goes in with eyes open. You can be a fanboy all you want. You can be a naysayer all you want. The nerf bat comes out more often because of human nature than it does because of game mechanics. Game mechanics can be changed a lot easier than flawed thinking can. I have seen nothing toindicate that the thought process has changed.
Ragnaat
Wed Mar 30, 2005 6:55 am
#2
Just to be clear, I made no mention of the cross-use of specials.. actualy i love it... its one of those things that has bothered me from the first day i got the game - wanting to make a bowcaster wielding chewbacca clone.
I do however, see great danger in the smuggler profession having such a unique role carved out in what I expect to be only a subset of our skill tree. I think given they way they have designed professiosn and skills and hybrids there isn't much around the problem of dabblers being more powerful overall then non.. be it by stacking or simply range of skills...
the only real solution is to not be unique in our role... and not particularly stackable either
would that be better, who knows
But like a grumpy old smuggler said recently one of the "issues" that many of us had was that a master smuggler with no other skills was a lot less effective with the skills we were given as smugglers then someone who came by as another profession and just learned a box or two.
Maybe it'll be better overall for the combat smuggler because even if they choose to be TK or carbines or run around with a conceiled dagger they can be smugglers. Maybe the non-combat smuggler will be more competant overall. Or maybe it'll be worse as *more* people see it advantageous to dabble. Guess we'll have to see.
I do however, see great danger in the smuggler profession having such a unique role carved out in what I expect to be only a subset of our skill tree. I think given they way they have designed professiosn and skills and hybrids there isn't much around the problem of dabblers being more powerful overall then non.. be it by stacking or simply range of skills...
the only real solution is to not be unique in our role... and not particularly stackable either
would that be better, who knows
But like a grumpy old smuggler said recently one of the "issues" that many of us had was that a master smuggler with no other skills was a lot less effective with the skills we were given as smugglers then someone who came by as another profession and just learned a box or two.
Maybe it'll be better overall for the combat smuggler because even if they choose to be TK or carbines or run around with a conceiled dagger they can be smugglers. Maybe the non-combat smuggler will be more competant overall. Or maybe it'll be worse as *more* people see it advantageous to dabble. Guess we'll have to see.
SmugglinZane
Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:10 am
#3
I know you didn't have the same exact concerns Ragnaat, but they came from the same area. The profession roles. Sorry if I spoke for you in that.
I don't necessarilydislike our specials being interchangeable, but I do see the potential for conflict in it. I see it in our profession more than any other, and that worries me a lot. It's an area of great concern for me really.
There will not be much of a problem with the Master Smugglers combining. They'll be spending all their SP, thus really paying for the specials. Now take a look at the fact that you can master any two of the elite ranged professions and have DF 4, with 18 points left over.
I also worry about what this means when our revamp comes along. If a dabbler can be more powerful than a Smuggler and still take Smuggler missions, well then it will be the death of the Master Smuggler.
Edited for typos.
Message Edited by SmugglinZane on 03-30-2005 09:11 AM
riotcontrol
Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:16 am
#4
About the profession roles in general: my greatest concern is that they haven't designed the new roles in terms of 'What would XXX_Profession_Name do in Star Wars?' but in terms of 'How can we fit this profession into a MMORPG combat system?'
This is, in my opinion, fundamentally wrong, and it is highly unlikely that I will be satisfied with the CURB, no matter how 'fun' or 'exciting' or 'balanced' it will be in MMORPG terms.
This is, in my opinion, fundamentally wrong, and it is highly unlikely that I will be satisfied with the CURB, no matter how 'fun' or 'exciting' or 'balanced' it will be in MMORPG terms.
HOTDOG
Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:24 am
#5
Kinda had those concerns as well Zane-
BUT there is a lot we still don't know and I was gonna wait to see how and where certifications, modsand abilities fall.
From the Docs. Iunderstood:
- There would be basic abilities and mods that went for everything
- You would spend "ability points" to choose from a pool of these general abilities.
- You get more, specialized abilities with each profession you take
- The higher you climb in a profession the better these abilities are
- You are encouraged to dabble and build the type of character you want
- You get huge benefits for Mastering a profession.
If this is true then even within our Smuggler ranks we will have a MESS of diversity.
Also you will have to get IN to the profession to get the good stuff and ALL THE WAY IN to get the best stuff.
But I think we need a little more info- at least how and when you get certs, mods, and abilities- before we get up in arms over this.
Not that we'll be able to do anything about it.
SmugglinZane
Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:12 am
#6
The problem I see HOTDOG, is in the fact that we are a one combat tree profession. A player will not have to get that far into our profession in order to get the specials.
That is what worries me at this point. Look at the BHs and all the Invest 3 players. The dabblers have a tendancy to detract from the Masters. They can create either an appearance of too much power, or that all is well with the profession.
I also want to look to the future and make sure that when they bring the Smuggler Revamp up, we make sure that the best perks/spice/whatever the benefitgained throughSmuggling missions areONLY available at Master.
Only by ensuring that the best comes ONLY from mastering the profession will we preserve the profession.
I know they're saying all of this, but our profession is unique from many of the others. Hell, they're even taking a lot of the crafting out of the medical professions.
In the end I'm just trying to point out where the pitfalls can lie for us in the new system as well as the future. If history has taught us anything with the game, it's better to hit it before it comes since most of what goes into testing remains unchanged except for bug fixes and nerfs.
fishbrains
Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:28 am
#7
I would also like to point out how much I hate having to open up IE to do a post like this. They need to make the damn forums Firefox compatible so I can do graphical editing.
SmugglinZane wrote:
The problem I see HOTDOG, is in the fact that we are a one combat tree profession. (for now....you look at this info throufh the eyes of the current system..)A player will not have to get that far into our profession in order to get the specials.
That is what worries me at this point. Look at the BHs and all the Invest 3 players. The dabblers have a tendancy to detract from the Masters. They can create either an appearance of too much power, or that all is well with the profession. (from what I have seen, a MS will be batter than those who just dabble.)
I also want to look to the future and make sure that when they bring the Smuggler Revamp up, we make sure that the best perks/spice/whatever the benefitgained throughSmuggling missions areONLY available at Master. (That's what everyone is shooting for)
Only by ensuring that the best comes ONLY from mastering the profession will we preserve the profession. (trust me, it will)
I know they're saying all of this, but our profession is unique from many of the others. Hell, they're even taking a lot of the crafting out of the medical professions.
In the end I'm just trying to point out where the pitfalls can lie for us in the new system as well as the future. (I know, and I appretiate it.If we can isolate oiur concerns then weonce it hits TC we can better testour skills and make smugger that much better)If history has taught us anything with the game, it's better to hit it before it comes since most of what goes into testing remains unchanged except for bug fixes and nerfs. (not allways true. Let's not get too much of a negitave attitude on this before we jump into TC. It's time to cowboy up...and get er done)
yimaz
Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:32 am
#8
Pittfalls come in any system of combat, any. The question is will this over all be a good thing for the game. Based on what I've read it would seem this is a vast improvment on the old system even at the expence of my current temp. But like many here I will take a wait and see attitude, after all we still dont know what mods are what or where. /shrug
sknomad
Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:11 pm
#9
my ideas on the fotm thing.. or the issues you seem to have with dabbling.
1) (I always get a kick out of this) it is possible to posess a familiarity with a skillset, even a proficiency, and not be a master. for example: greedo: master bounty hunter? I think not
2) increased costs of novice elite professions (though smuggler keeps the same prerequisite costs) should keep people from "dabbling" in more than one profession. -- some people may choose to dabble in smuggler, and others may dabble in pistoleer..
the idea is, every profession can enhance every other profession. - that is to say that dabbling is meant to happen, but if you are for example, swordsman.. are you going to spend the extra 29 (assuming this stays the same cost as it is now,which it likely won't) skillpoints just to dabble in smuggler?
A pistoleer will be a more likely dabbler, as (currently) novice brawler is far more useful than novice marksman (but hopefully those will be evened out as well).
Bottom line is, smuggler is a hybrid profession, a bridge profession even. Being that you need to be part melee, part ranged to even get novice, and end up being part 'crafter'... It is a natural profession for people to dabble in. Having said that, unless you have a master profession that can utilize a smuggler's abilities, dabbling is relatively useless.
A pistoleer who dabbles in smuggler (as is done quite frequently under the current system) will get far more use out of the abilities than a melee profession. If I understand the special ability thing correctly, a melee profession will now be able to access some of the specials and abilities that were previously meant only for ranged professions (ie: smuggler pistol skills).
So I ask you, what is the difference. who cares if it is a melee or a ranged profession that gets to dabble? Also, of course, the issue of mastering a profession. Logically (and I know this is not always the case with SOE - but it's far too early to pass judgement on the cu) the skills and abilities should get better and stronger as you progress and put more points into the profession; this brings me back to the greedo/bh thing. One who invests the time and engergy into mastering a profession should logically be better at what he does, than someone who dabbles - this is what the devs have said time and again (paraphrased).
so.. should a swordsman not know how to conceal a weapon, or be able to find a cubby hole to stash some illegal items, or tinker with improving the performance of his weapon.. Should a swordsman not be able to fast talk his way out of a sticky situation?
If not, please tell me why..
In our daily lives we dabble.. you may know how to jumpstart a car, or change your oil... that doesn't make you a mechanic. Perhaps you know how to bandage a wound, set a broken bone, maybe cpr .. that doesn't make you a nurse or a medic. Do you like to drive fast? have a high performance car? are you ready for nascar?
To me it seems logical that people should be able to vary their skills, and take things from one part of their life to another, but in order to truly excel in their chosen path they have to spend more time/energy and get educated fully on their topic - degrees, certifications, years of experience- why should this be any different in a game?
Datink_Nieleft
Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:55 pm
#10
yimaz wrote:
Pittfalls come in any system of combat, any. The question is will this over all be a good thing for the game. Based on what I've read it would seem this is a vast improvment on the old system even at the expence of my current temp. But like many here I will take a wait and see attitude, after all we still dont know what mods are what or where. /shrug
Unarmed hit 3 right on the head there Yimaz. It's like sushi, it may seem nasty but until you try it you really can't say whether or not it tastes bad.
FOTM...well I am sure we will see a influx of new Smugglers. The uber-leet dudes will want the I cant be killed template and if the CU is done right, they will be crap out of luck. Hopefully the Dev's studied Newton and implemented "for every actionthere isa opposite and equal reaction" mentality. By using this law of motion and arranging skill trees (making it impossible to master 3 combat profs) we will see people specializing in certain types of combat more than specific professions. So as far as FOTM is concerned, I am not worried yet. Just have to wait and see on TC.
Go Team Low Blow!!!
sumner
Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:58 pm
#11
I've never really understood the dabler hater mentality in this game, but I guess I can see a fear of a dabbler making a special overpowered, hence getting it nerfed. While this might seem like a major concern with the special sharing among weapons/professions, remeber that it is stated that not all specials will work with all weapons. Also rember that specials are special again, there will be no more firing off specials at 1 per second. Another thing to remember is that dabbling goes in all directions, go look through the skill trees (when TC-CU comes up) and find stuff that will work for you.
One of the greatest parts of this game is you are not "X" class, you have points to spend on the skills that work best for you. Take advantage of it and find stuff that works, don't sit back and hate the people who take the time to do it.
BTW - I'm not a smuggler dabbler never even been a smuggler
never even been a smuggler
LaughingWolf
Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:13 pm
#12
fishbrains wrote:
I would also like to point out how much I hate having to open up IE to do a post like this. They need to make the damn forums Firefox compatible so I can do graphical editing.
QFE!!
SmugglinZane
Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:47 pm
#13
I'm not dabbler hating, I'm pointing out a potential pitfall.
Dabblers have hurt this profession in the past. I can almost gurantee that we will see even more dabblers in this profession with the CU.
Most importantly, I'm starting the discussion of how it pertains to the revamp now, vice waiting until it is coded and there's nothing we can do about it.
Dabblers have their place. Dabblers can even have advantages in some areas, I've got no problem with that. I'm simply stating that we must make sure that a Master of the profession has more proficieny with the skills than a dabbler. This goes for the CU changes and the Smuggler Revamp.
I know we shouldn't think in terms of what the game is now, but look at what happened with BH. The templaters had more success than the full blown MBHs. Personally, I think player bounties should only go to the MBHs. They invested the SP, they should get the content and the payout. Similarly, when our revamp comes along, Masters should get the high level missions and the benefits that come with them. One tree should not constitute a profession.
The dabblers can dabble all they want, I'm not opposing that. I'm defending the future of our profession based on previous occurences. The game may be changing, but the Dev team remains the same.
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