Smuggler Archive
Thread: ATTENTION: ALL THOSE WHO WANT PC BHs TAKE A LOOK-
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HOTDOG
Sun Mar 13, 2005 12:11 pm
#1
This thread is NOT about arguing for or against PvP.
This thread is NOT about whethera Smuggler template can handle a BH template.
If you have views on those subjects there are SEVERAL threads in which you can post them but I ask you, please, do notpost here.
This thread IS abouttaking steps so that those who want to have Smuggler Bounties get them.
As stated before in another thread (and the in concept thread) the biggest problem, IMHO, is that a Smuggler/BH team could exploit the system by:
- Havinga level5 deadbeat(PC BH worthy)Smuggler take a contract and keep the spice.
- The BH picks up the bounty.
- The Smuggler allows the BH to kill him.
- The BH and the Smuggler divie up the spice and reward and then rinse and repeat.
Viete wrote:
"How about Instead of a 5 deadbeat score to get on the Bounty Hunter terms you take a mission specifically designed for PVP, in that mission your goal is to deliver the goods and the Bounty Hunters is to catch you and retrieve the goods before you can. Since they are apparently designing these missions to take differing amounts of time it should be do able to write the mission in a way that would work fairly well for this...By putting it this way only the SmugglerOR the Bounty Hunter get paid for the mission. "
I think he is on to something here but again, a Smuggler/BH team could still take the contract and splitthe cash if one or the other wins.
So I was thinking:
What if you raised the criteria for taking such a contract (High Risk-PvP)?
- The Smuggler would have to have UW3 or more (Master?).
- The Smuggler would only get the contract after fulfilling a series of contracts.
- The Smuggler would only get the contract if they had reached a certain amount of faction with the Employer (Reb, Imp, Hutt, etc.)
What if youlimited how frequently a Smuggler could acceptthese High Risk contracts?
- Ifa Smuggler fails a High Risk contract they cannot take another for 2 weeks.
- High-Risk contracts could work on a mailing system where the Smuggler initiates the process and then gets WP issued through e-mails?
What if you gave the Smuggler/BH rewards for completing the contract/Bounty that were intangible as well as credits.
- A badge for completing 5 Contracts in a row, 10 Contracts in a row, etc. etc.
- A Bounty Hunter Badge for successfully completing5 bounties in a row, 10 bounties in a row, etc. etc.
These are all methods I think will help skirt the explotive nature of having Smuggler Bounties and I'm sure there are others-
Of course this all with the understanding that a smuggler never HAS to take a High Risk contract.
A Smuggler should have to CHOOSE to take thecontract and only get that option by completing (several) tasks toward being elegible to even have the choice of taking said contract.
What we NEED though,are answers toquestions on the intention of ever having Smuggler Bounties.
Is the insertion of Smuggler Bounties a direction that Developers wish to take with SWG?
If not, why not?
If so, under what circumstances are you willing to introduce them?
We understand that in SWG PvP HAS to be by choice- would you consider the proposal above to be consistant with SWG's policies?
What are your biggest concerns aboutSmuggler Bounties and how can we work together toovercome these obstacles?
I URGE all of you who truly wish for High Risk Contracts that result in a PC BH taking the bounty to copy the previous proposal and questions and post them into the In Concept Smuggler Update Threadon the subject.
If you have posted there already- and you probably have- I ask that you edit your post to include the portion above to make sure the Devs see it over and over again.
I believe we will get a definitive answer if we show how many of us actually WANT this option in game.
Remember this would be in addition toNOT in place of- the contracts mentioned in the Smuggler Upgrade documents.
Lixosskzzo
Sun Mar 13, 2005 12:32 pm
#2
A few thoughts:
Since hopefully we will be getting evasion techniques, we should get some xp for using those techniques. Maybe make such xp time based (only counting time when you are actively hunted: the BH and you are both online), that way, the longer we are using our evasion (slicing travel terminals, etc), we get at least a small amount of underworld XP, but enough xp to make the smuggler think twice before simply giving up. Obvious problems would be master smugglers, who don't really care about xp, and also the reverse, with a master BH taking a smuggler hunting mission, but not actively searching for them, just letting the baby smuggler's xp meter rise up.
I'd say instead of a hard time limit, or perhaps in addition to it, simply make failing a mission completely devestate your reputation (reputation should be global, or close to it). That way, if you fail a mission of high caliber, everyone hears about it that would care, and will think long and hard about offering youa big mission. Each mission should gradually build up your global reputation. I think a global reputation is better than faction based. After all, if I'm the best gun runner working for the rebel alliance, people are going to know about it. It wouldn't make sense for Jabba to start me off running the cheapest spice available if I approached him for a job. He wouldn't bring me straight into his most trusted circle of course, but he'd trust me more than greenfoot.
Might add a few more thoughts later, time to head home.
TomoRainer
Sun Mar 13, 2005 2:03 pm
#3
Well, so what if you wouldn't engage in it? So you don't like PVP and don't want to get involved. That's cool, a lot of people don't like dealing with all the template stacking and food and buffs and griefing and hate tells, and that segment of the playerbase should not be forced to take part in PVP--but many of us want to. In fact, many of us won't truly feel like smugglers if we aren't hunted. If the system's designed to fit both needs, there is no problem. If you don't want to get on the bounty terms, great, you'll never have to. The fact you don't like PVP will be accounted for in any proper smuggling system. And those of us who do want to run that risk will have the option. There's no conflict here.
Sorry for the tangent, Hotdog, I promise to post something relevant later today.
Sorry for the tangent, Hotdog, I promise to post something relevant later today.
HOTDOG
Sun Mar 13, 2005 2:04 pm
#4
Fellas...
Fellas...
This ISN'T about whether PvP is fun or not.
Let's work on exploitation please...
Ternque01
Sun Mar 13, 2005 2:06 pm
#5
Rogue135 wrote:
And I'll be just as quick to point out that I just haven't had any good PvP experiences. I never said you had to like my point of view, I also said nothing about whether it should or should not be added, I also said nothing about not making it an option. I was simply stating that I personally would not engage in it.
Now, how old are you?
Your statements carried an incindiary load with them. I don't appreciate someone perpetuating a false label about PvP'ers in order to stomp out any hope some of us want of having PC BH's.
The devs read what we write here, and I would be a FOOL to bite my toungue when people spit on people who like PvP and put down the hopes of a PC BH system that respects players of all persuasions.
Ternque01
Sun Mar 13, 2005 2:30 pm
#6
To be honest HOTDOG, in my gut I feel like they haven't included PC BH's because of the possible exploiting. In Jedi bounties, Jedi really lose alot when they get killed. Who would lose 1 million xp just to make a few 100k's of credits?
BH's might not like it, but I think setting smuggler bounties at 20-25k is the best solution. Couple this with a way for smugglers who do choose to be hunted by PC's to have take a lowering of visibility and a large docking of payouts for their smuggler missions, regardless of the ethical decisions they make in order to reap more cash from the situation.
In other words, smugglers should not be able to make much dough for a while after they are killed by a PC BH. It might not be aton of fun being poor for a bit, but it would make a player with a BH and smuggler account from exploiting the system for credits and spices...
Gunga000
Sun Mar 13, 2005 2:31 pm
#7
From what i read, there will be no PC Bounty Hunters involved? Just NPC Bounty Hunters? Can someone just clarify this for me.
Ternque01
Sun Mar 13, 2005 2:34 pm
#8
Gunga000 wrote:
From what i read, there will be no PC Bounty Hunters involved? Just NPC Bounty Hunters? Can someone just clarify this for me.
That is the current, uncoded design. We expect things to change in all areas of the documents, but hopefully a system respecting PvP and PvE'ers will be put into place. For the love of Yoda I hope so.
Rogue135
Sun Mar 13, 2005 2:40 pm
#9
Ternque01 wrote:
Rogue135 wrote:
And I'll be just as quick to point out that I just haven't had any good PvP experiences. I never said you had to like my point of view, I also said nothing about whether it should or should not be added, I also said nothing about not making it an option. I was simply stating that I personally would not engage in it.
Now, how old are you?
Your statements carried an incindiary load with them. I don't appreciate someone perpetuating a false label about PvP'ers in order to stomp out any hope some of us want of having PC BH's.
The devs read what we write here, and I would be a FOOL to bite my toungue when people spit on people who like PvP and put down the hopes of a PC BH system that respects players of all persuasions.
Yours have been no less incindiary.
All I'm saying here is that I don't want this crammed down everyone else's throat too. The thing is, this "risk vs. reward" idea that has been kicked around is funamentally flawed because yes, the PvPers get their way. they get some great reward for potential PvP activity... then the rest of us that don't want PvP either have to sit by and miss out on that reward or do something we don't want to do. I would be a fool to bite my tongue on this issue aswell.
You can have your PvP for all I care, but I don't see any reason that the PvP group should be rewarded any more than the rest of us for it. The way I see it, a good Smuggler won't be hunted in the first place, that's fine. If this were an option placed at the 4th or even 5th Deadbeat point thats great! I don't plan to ever have 4 or 5, so in theory there's not a problem.
I'm not trying to exclude anyone, I just want to make sure that my experience isn't ruined when something similar to that scenario I posted earlier happens, and it does, unfortunately I've been on the wrong end of a similar scenario. It wasn't fun...
P.S. For the record, that scenario was purposely mocking the CounterStrike-kids, if that came off as anti-PvP, which I'm sure it did, you have my apologies.
Now, rather than create a new post in the thread I'll just edit this one.
I don't think you can stop exploitation in this or any other system. There is always someone, somewhere that will spend all their time trying to find a way around the system. Now the obvious ones could be stopped, but like I said, there's always someone...
Message Edited by Rogue135 on 03-13-2005 03:53 PM
Ternque01
Sun Mar 13, 2005 3:09 pm
#10
Ouch, someone one-starred you.
Anyways, if a system could be devised that would address both of our concerns, then I'd be happy as hell. I don't think it's cool to bend smugglers into PvP in order to get the most out of their profession.
I dislike the 5th deadbeat point idea. I think there should be a CLEAR CUT option for a smuggler to change the the normal 4th deadbeat point to be EITHER a strong NPC bounty hunter or a PC bounty hunter.
Keep the damn rewards the same for both tiers, but for the love of god PLEASE keep an option for PVE and PVP.
It's pretty damn simple, keep the rewards for being a highly dishonest smuggler the same, but allow a choice for the 4th deadbeat point. I don't care if every smuggler but me chooses to go for the NPC BH option, I will choose the PC just for the enjoyment. I SOOOOO hope for such an equal, clear choice.
SpinningCloud
Sun Mar 13, 2005 3:31 pm
#11
OK, this is coming from someone that really REALLY dislikes PvP.
I see no reason to have a 5th 'dead beat' level for those that want to end up on the BH terms. It's no skin off the back of ANY player that doesn't wish to participate. That is IF the rewards are only greater and not different in content. I wouldn't want those high end missions for items that I couldn't get doing the non player BH type missions...only the amount of the reward.
I would happily participate in player BH even though I don't enjoy PvP IF the real battle between the BH and Smuggler was one of tracking vs. evasion. Once I'm caught I fully expect to die, we shouldn't be on the same combat level as a BH even WITH other combat professions as suppliments. A BH has to go head-to-head with a Jedi...we shouldn't end up at that combat level.
But we SHOULD be the masters of decoying BH tracking droids, evasion, slicing BH terms, jamming their radar and hiding our names.
As for the exploit issue...
I like the idea that the BH reward for success is high enough AND our 'dead beat' level decreased far enough (on being killed by the BH) that exploitation would not be worth the effort.
Additionally on being caught by a BH we should be forced to complete successfully x number of contracts for only marginal rewards before being allowed to take high end missions again. Players will only trade so much of their time for good loot after which it just isn't worth it.
Additionally once a BH has failed his mission to kill us he should NOT be able to accept it again until we've been off the terms and back on for another failed mission. Only a fixed number of BH attempts should be allowed. For instance if 3 different BHs fail then we are removed from the terms. How we define failing when our mission is to evade I don't quite know though.
BurningProphet
Sun Mar 13, 2005 3:48 pm
#12
What if when a smuggler takes a mission, the items have allready been purchased and the customers is only paying you for the dilivery. So the dilevory would be less expensive than the purchase itself. Now, if the smuggler fails to dilevor that smuggler has to pay the customer for the loss. That way if a bounty hunter killed the smuggler and got his reward it wouldn't be worth it for the smuggler because he would have to pay for the loss merchandise. However, this should only be for special missions like PVP where the stakes are high, otherwise it would turn a lot of people off about going into the smuggling profesion.
DefelSpy
Sun Mar 13, 2005 3:50 pm
#13
As far as wether or not there should be PC BH system, as that seems to be invading this thread, that sounds good as long as it is optional. As to how they would implment this, I think contacts should have two kinds of missions. Just like mission terminals(destroy-delivery), there would be PvE and PvP smuggling missions. There would be TWO kinds of deadbeat points as well; PvP and PvE points. The difference would be that PvP terminals pitted smugglers against PCs whom have taken missions from opposing groups(valarian-jabba) and if you earned deadbeat points in PvP, say 3, there would be a 10K bounty for PC BH on you. For every deadbeat point after that, you get 5K added to that.(capp at 30K-50K). In addition to deadbeat points I realy think there should be a loss of faction with the contact's employer, and a small loss with everyone alse not opposed to your contact's employer's enemies. These missions should be worth more than PvE, but the NPC's should be far more difficult. The option for PC opponents beyond PC BHs would be nice. Imagine doing the Jabba themepark when say, Bib Fortuna tells you someone(a PC smuggler) is delivering spice for valarian and that jabba wants that spice. Imperial or Corsec missions that have you scanning or intercepting players. All PvP would be optional for each side.
JTL could be implimented in a similar method. A way of avoiding detection and/or keeping a low profile to keep off scans would be interesting, but how they could impliment it I'm not sure. Maybe PC BHs and such would get updates by talking with contacts, finding out where the target was going, and even get tips when the target goes near a city. The smuggler would have to avoid large cities, police forces, NPCs etc. to keep their pursuers guessing. As to expliotation,the contract should remain open. By that I mean,any BH can go after you, as long as they want the credits. Your budy may help you, but all the others won't. I don't think the smuggler contracts should be on the BH terminals though. To go after a smuggler who crossed Jabba, you would have to go to Jabba's palace to get the mission, and if you have his badge of trust, you could get an Email with the contract if it is a high end contract. These are my 2 and half creds.
You never know where the Defel Spy will be, until you flip the light switch.
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