Shipwright Archive

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Is this a bug? No, this is working as intented. I remember my days of doctor crafting d-buffs when I couldn't get past the 66% experimental charges due to none of the resources had UT.

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When RotW was released, space mining was introduced and we (Shipwrights) got a nice batch of new schematics that used the new asteroid resources that could be mined in space. We got 2 types of new component schematics: Elite schematics (a kind of Mark VI ship components, suitable only for PoB ships) and Mining schematics (new components to be use in the Y-8 and/or for mining in space).

The Elite schematics where the same as the regular schematics but changing 2 random resources for 2 asteroid resources. The Mining schematics where the same as the regular ones but using only asteroid resources.

When people began crafting the new Elite/PoB components realized that some Elite components are far better than their Mark V counterparts, but some other are worse. Same with mining components.

Most people think this is due to the fact that asteroid resources only have 1 stat (OQ), and in a way it is. But this is not the main problem.

Yesterday I crafted a Mark V Deflector Shield Generator and a Elite Deflector Shield Generator, and took some numbers. Then I crafted a Mark V Engine and a Elite Engine, and wrote down the numbers too. I did NOT USE any subcomponent to get more "pure" numbers.

This numbers show, without doubt, that Elite components are better than Mark V components, BUT due to bad design decisions some components are borked.

What we are experiencing is NOT a bug, it's a bad design decision.

Disclaimer: excuse my grammar and spelling, english IS NOT my mother language.

Engine (experimented fully to speed)
The relevant stats when experimenting on front hp are: 50% OQ, 50% PE

Mark V (number between "()" is the modified stat value for the schematic due to the resource cap, if any)
1250 Radioactive: OQ=979, PE=984
1250 Iron: OQ=982
1250 Aluminum: OQ=997
1250 Steel: OQ=994

The WRV (Weighted Resource Value) is calculated as follows:
WRVoq = (1250 * 979 + 1250 * 982 + 1250 * 997 + 1250 * 994) / 5000 = 988,0
WRVpe = (1250 * 984) / 1250 = 984,0
WRV = WRVoq * 50% + WRVpe * 50% = 986,0 => 98% max experimentation

After the first combine, speed experimentation is 28% (85,2 speed). Maxed, speed experimentation is 98% (104,6 speed).
From this numbers whe can determine that the speed range for a Mark V Engine is: 77,0 - 105,0


Elite (number between "()" is the modified stat value for the schematic due to the resource cap, if any)
1250 Carbonaceous Asteroid: OQ=1000
1250 Acidic Asteroid: OQ=1000
1250 Aluminum: OQ=997
1250 Steel: OQ=994

The WRV (Weighted Resource Value) is calculated as follows:
WRVoq = (1250 * 1000 + 1250 * 1000 + 1250 * 997 + 1250 * 994) / 5000 = 997,8
WRVpe = 0 (none of the resources has PE)
WRV = WRVoq * 50% + WRVpe * 50% = 489,9 => 49% max experimentation

After the first combine, speed experimentation is 11% (88,6 speed). Maxed, speed experimentation is 49% (100,1 speed).
From this numbers whe can determine that the speed range for a Mark V Engine is: 85,0 - 117,0


Elite Engine > Mark V Engine

Message Edited by AhrienTerrik on 07-14-2005 02:41 AM

Very interesting, thanks for posting the numbers. Did you happen to write down any numbers for Elite engine PYR? Can you post the assembly and experimentation percentages for the elite shield stats?

Now, when I plug 11%=88.6 and 49%=100.1 into my spreadsheet, I get a 0% speed of 85.3 and a 100% speed of 115.3. I am not exactly sure where you got 117 from, perhaps it is because I just do not have all the numbers. Nevertheless, max speed of 130 or 132, it doesn't really matter, just as long as we're not stuck with 100 speed Elite engines.

Finally, I think you can call this a bug in the schematic. The system itself is working, but because none of the resources have a PE it is capping out. Replacing Aluminum with Radioactive is one solution. Adding a PE to acidic asteroid is another. Or just remove PE from the schematic.

I can see that Elite Boosters have the exact same problem. Adding a PE to Methane would fix it.

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Goraf wrote:
Very interesting, thanks for posting the numbers. Did you happen to write down any numbers for Elite engine PYR? Can you post the assembly and experimentation percentages for the elite shield stats?

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The Elite Shield stats should have been there, but somehow I didn't copy&paste it to the post. It's fixed now.

And no, I did not get numbers for the PYR because the formula I use rely on me experimenting to the maximum possible and I would have ended with an unbalanced engine if I experimented only 1 stat to the maximum.

But when I am able to space mine my own asteroid resources (right now I must rely on a guildie (thanks Pandral) to provide me with the resources) I will craft another engine experimenting on PYR.

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Goraf wrote:
Now, when I plug 11%=88.6 and 49%=100.1 into my spreadsheet, I get a 0% speed of 85.3 and a 100% speed of 115.3. I am not exactly sure where you got 117 from, perhaps it is because I just do not have all the numbers. Nevertheless, max speed of 130 or 132, it doesn't really matter, just as long as we're not stuck with 100 speed Elite engines.

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It's most likely a rounding problem. The initial % should be 11,22% and the maximum 49,89%. It didn't want to dwell to much in this issue, since it was not relevant to the point I am trying to raise, but if you're interested I don't mind expanding a little on this issue.

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Goraf wrote:
Finally, I think you can call this a bug in the schematic. The system itself is working, but because none of the resources have a PE it is capping out. Replacing Aluminum with Radioactive is one solution. Adding a PE to acidic asteroid is another. Or just remove PE from the schematic.

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In my first post I used the "random" word with purpose. I like the idea of keeping the same relevant stats in Elite components, and this wouldn't be a problem if they did choose wich resources should have been changed more carefully. In fact, unless we can place space harvesters in asteroids, I think it's easier for all of us if all resources have a single stat with a value of 1000. They just need to change the schematics that only use asteroid resources or all these components will always be the same regardless of the SW.

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Goraf wrote:
I can see that Elite Boosters have the exact same problem. Adding a PE to Methane would fix it.

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Fixing boosters is easy: change Aluminum for the original Liquid Petro Fuel, and you have PE back again.

Elite Armor, Capacitors, Reactors, Shields and Beam Weapons don't need fixing.
Boosters and Engines need to have some resources changed from the schematic, as stated.
Schematics that only use asteroid resources (Cargo Holds, Mining Lasers, ...) need to use a mix of asteroid and regular resources like Elite and PoB components do.

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AhrienTerrik wrote:

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It's most likely a rounding problem. The initial % should be 11,22% and the maximum 49,89%. It didn't want to dwell to much in this issue, since it was not relevant to the point I am trying to raise, but if you're interested I don't mind expanding a little on this issue.

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I am very much interested. I would love to have the numbers for the elite components, as well as the fixed Engines and Capacitors, added to this post. I just haven't had the chance to sit down and make one of everything.

While your method of calculating the min/max is probably more accurate, you can calculate them with only two data points. Due to the hidden rounding, the numbers are a little off, but close enough for estimating what something will look like before crafting it.

Captain Alirc Ec-Ecit
Alliance Ace Pilot
XO 77th "Phoenix" Fighter/Bomber Wing
Valcyn

Thanks for taking the time post this all out. *salutes*

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Is this a bug? No, this is working as intented. I remember my days of doctor crafting d-buffs when I couldn't get past the 66% experimental charges due to none of the resources had UT.

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I wrote a follow-up on my post about the asteroid issue. Please, read the Summary of borked schematics due to using asteroid resources

I am not a Shipwright... I am a freelance miner and an asteroid part junky, while I don't fully understand everything you have writen I want to thank you for all your effort in bringing attention to this issue rather than just whining that it is bugged and demanding a fix.

If there where stars I would give you 5... and that still would not be enough.

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CityHall wrote:
I am not a Shipwright... I am a freelance miner and an asteroid part junky, while I don't fully understand everything you have writen I want to thank you for all your effort in bringing attention to this issue rather than just whining that it is bugged and demanding a fix.

If there where stars I would give you 5... and that still would not be enough.

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Thanks for your kindness. Don't worry if you don't understand everything, it's just a lot of math that run the crafting systems. I'm pretty sure not all crafters know how this work anyway.

The point of this post was to illustrate with some numbers an issue with crafting the new RotW SW schematics. IIscandar needed the data to pass it to the devs. From now the issue is on the other side and we can only hope that they will some day fix it.

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AhrienTerrik wrote:
Engine (experimented fully to speed)
The relevant stats when experimenting on front hp are: 50% OQ, 50% PE

Mark V (number between "()" is the modified stat value for the schematic due to the resource cap, if any)
... ...
From this numbers whe can determine that the speed range for a Mark V Engine is: 77,0 - 105,0


Elite (number between "()" is the modified stat value for the schematic due to the resource cap, if any)
... ...
From this numbers whe can determine that the speed range for a Mark V Engine is: 85,0 - 117,0


Elite Engine > Mark V Engine

Message Edited by AhrienTerrik on 07-14-2005 02:41 AM

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Am I missing something, or is the text above wrong. How are Elite engines worse than MkV engines when the numbers above show Eltie is better... Is there just a typo in the above?

Message Edited by Molique on 08-05-2005 10:53 AM

The speed range for an Elite Engine is, theoretically, better than the speed range of a Mark V Engine.

But due to the fact that none of the resources used in the Elite engine have PE, a stat used in the speed experimentation, you cannot experiment over 50% and that would be around 101 speed, while a Mark V engine doesn't suffer from this issue and its speed can be experimented up to 100%, so 105 speed. So, even if the range is better, the issue the original post explained is the responsible for the current Elite engines having worse stats than they should.

BTW, the same goes for the PYR.