Shipwright Archive
Thread: Optimal Combat Speeds
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Kalano
Wed Dec 29, 2004 2:08 pm
#1
VemaGara wrote:
When you toss an engine onto a ship, how much of its speed do you actually get to use in a dogfight?
I've been doing some calculations to determine optimal combat speeds. The OCS is the speed where you get the best YPR from your airframe. The numbers are ... interesting. These numbers tell me that the community is missing a critical piece of information. It also tells me that those derned devs were far more clever than we thought.
Does anyone have good values for the optimal throttle percentages for each spaceframe? I think this is AS IMPORTANT as the speed multiplier, but it's less obvious. I'd really love to have some better numbers to plug in.
My current equation is:
Optimal Combat Speed (OCS) = (10 x Engine Speed x Chasis Speed Multiplier x Optimal Throttle Percentage)
For example, a Y-wing with a Tier9, 101 speed, 35k mass engine has an optimal combat speed of 485. Meanwhile, a TIE/ld with a Tier3, 57 speed, 2.5k mass engine has an optimal combat speed of 484. This is to say, speed is not a good measure of speed.
Hmmm.....you got a very interesting point there. I do agree with you on the speed isn't a good measure for dogfighting. The YPR is very important when fighting for me, but others like to have some speed to get away. it depends on the play style there.
I will have to take some time to study your formula, but would be nice to see the numbers you used, especially the Optimal Throttle Percentage. Still trying to find the exact optimal point on my ships. but your OCS looks pretty close to mine preferable speed.
VemaGara
Wed Dec 29, 2004 2:26 pm
#2
I tried posting the numbers, but there were Excel "issues" (danged bloated html).
In general:
Light = 85% throttle
Medium = 70% throttle
Heavy = 50% throttle
The lights and heavies are easy to guess. I'm having trouble with the mediums.
In general:
Light = 85% throttle
Medium = 70% throttle
Heavy = 50% throttle
The lights and heavies are easy to guess. I'm having trouble with the mediums.
Rogue1970
Wed Dec 29, 2004 2:28 pm
#3
You are very correct.
The only issue in a dogfight is typically YPR tho, and with the minimal differences we can actually make on those stats, its hard to justify even trying.
Cratfed engines are capable of stellar and 'un-needed' speed, and their only true justification is to make getting from Point A to Point B faster right now.
Until the Devs either combine YPR into one experimentation line AND/OR increase the effect of a point 10fold, there is no point in building the high Y or P or R engine (we can't do all 3 or even 2, heck even 1 to compete with loot).
The other day I took my Firespray up and used a crafted egine with low 50s for YPR, and about 89.5 speed - it handles like a pile of bricks and was near worthless, with a top tier crafted egine in it.
I then tossed my high mass cert 8 98.9speed engine with 75 avg YPRs and could take on anything in the galaxy like a dream at half throttle! I could whip around like an NPC TIE in that thing.
Our crafted engines sucks, no matter how good we make them and SPEED is not the determining factor of a good engine - it just looks pretty.....
VemaGara
Wed Dec 29, 2004 2:45 pm
#4
Here's the first pass of the numbers in CSV.
,,,,Tier1,Tier3,Tier5,Tier7,Tier9
,,,Speed,43,57,77,81,101
,,Optimal,Mass,886,2295,5736,14329,35800
,Speed Mod,Speed,,,,,,
,,,Speed,43,57,77,81,101
,,Optimal,Mass,886,2295,5736,14329,35800
,Speed Mod,Speed,,,,,,
,,,,Tier1,Tier3,Tier5,Tier7,Tier9
Z-95,0.95,0.85,,347,460,622,654,816
YWing,0.85,0.50,,183,242,327,344,429
Y Longprobe,0.85,0.50,,183,242,327,344,429
XWing (closed),0.95,0.70,,286,379,512,539,672
XWing (open),0.90,0.75,,290,385,520,547,682
AWing,1.00,0.85,,366,485,655,689,859
B-Wing (open),0.80,0.60,,206,274,370,389,485
B-Wing (closed),0.85,0.50,,183,242,327,344,429
Nova,0.80,0.50,,172,228,308,324,404
Z-95,0.95,0.85,,347,460,622,654,816
YWing,0.85,0.50,,183,242,327,344,429
Y Longprobe,0.85,0.50,,183,242,327,344,429
XWing (closed),0.95,0.70,,286,379,512,539,672
XWing (open),0.90,0.75,,290,385,520,547,682
AWing,1.00,0.85,,366,485,655,689,859
B-Wing (open),0.80,0.60,,206,274,370,389,485
B-Wing (closed),0.85,0.50,,183,242,327,344,429
Nova,0.80,0.50,,172,228,308,324,404
TIE/ld,1.00,0.85,,366,485,655,689,859
TIE,0.98,0.85,,358,475,641,675,841
TIE/in,0.97,0.85,,355,470,635,668,833
TIE Int,1.00,0.85,,366,485,655,689,859
TIE Adv,1.00,0.85,,366,485,655,689,859
TIE Agg,0.95,0.85,,347,460,622,654,816
TIE Opp,0.90,0.50,,194,257,347,365,455
TIE Bomb,0.85,0.50,,183,242,327,344,429
VT49 Decimator,0.80,0.50,,172,228,308,324,404
TIE,0.98,0.85,,358,475,641,675,841
TIE/in,0.97,0.85,,355,470,635,668,833
TIE Int,1.00,0.85,,366,485,655,689,859
TIE Adv,1.00,0.85,,366,485,655,689,859
TIE Agg,0.95,0.85,,347,460,622,654,816
TIE Opp,0.90,0.50,,194,257,347,365,455
TIE Bomb,0.85,0.50,,183,242,327,344,429
VT49 Decimator,0.80,0.50,,172,228,308,324,404
Scyk,0.95,0.85,,347,460,622,654,816
Dunelizard,0.94,0.85,,344,455,615,647,807
Kihraxz,1.00,0.85,,366,485,655,689,859
Kimogila,0.92,0.70,,277,367,496,522,650
Ixiyan,0.95,0.85,,347,460,622,654,816
Rihxyrk,0.89,0.70,,268,355,480,505,629
YT-1300,0.80,0.50,,172,228,308,324,404
MT22 Krayt,0.92,0.50,,198,262,354,373,465
Dunelizard,0.94,0.85,,344,455,615,647,807
Kihraxz,1.00,0.85,,366,485,655,689,859
Kimogila,0.92,0.70,,277,367,496,522,650
Ixiyan,0.95,0.85,,347,460,622,654,816
Rihxyrk,0.89,0.70,,268,355,480,505,629
YT-1300,0.80,0.50,,172,228,308,324,404
MT22 Krayt,0.92,0.50,,198,262,354,373,465
Firespray,0.90,0.85,,329,436,589,620,773
Kalano
Wed Dec 29, 2004 2:52 pm
#5
Wow, there is a big difference between tier 7 and tier 9. The problem with tier 9 is the mass, then also depending on what you fighting, the optimal speed can end up being to fast to back door some npc's, especially when the lag moster hits.
VemaGara
Wed Dec 29, 2004 2:54 pm
#6
We needed fast engines with the old flight model. EVERYTHING flew too fast. The only thing that you always wanted more of was speed. So, the devs gave up speed and toned down the NPC's. Now that the NPC ships go at a sane speed, this other stuff matters.
1st_Viduus
Wed Dec 29, 2004 2:56 pm
#7
Optimal Throttle Percentage? Where does that come from?
At any rate - I'm sure that all pilots worth their salt already understand that PYR is much more important than just *speed*, and why.
But I'll go on anyway....:
But I'll go on anyway....:
PYR-- choose the lowest of the PY speeds to get absolute best statistic (engine) then divide by Top Speed x 100 = Best ENGINE performace throttle. (percentage)
Plug it into the hull in question
Percentage / Hull Modifyer == Optimal Maneuvering (combat) Speed.
(This of course only applies when the resulting number falls in between 25% and 95% - as there are hidden PYR nerfs in the hulls which will reduce your maneuvering regardless of the result. More on this a little lower.)
Example:
Lowest of PYR is Yaw at 65
Top Engine Speed is 72
== 90.27 % throttle is optimal for the engine .
Put it in a TIE Advanced (1.2 Yaw and 1.0 Speed modifyer on the hull)
90.27 / (1.2/1.0)= 75.225% throttle will yeild best maneuvering speed.
Put it in a TIE Oppressor (1.3 Yaw and 0.9 Speed)
90.27 / (1.3/0.9) = 62.495% throttle will yeild the best result.
NOW!
That's (at launch) 542 speed (10 x speed * percent throttle / 100) -- but now run Engine Overload 3 (like everyone does):
542 * 1.33 = 723 speed for the Advanced, and 450 x 1.33 = 598 for the oppressor. A very large difference...
A chassis with a (larger) mod gives worse performance.
An engine with a yeilding result over 95% the original number until the end of the formula, and if it is still over 95% then it gets cut down to that after all else is said and done.
(e.g.:
120% / 1.2 = 100% --> 95% is maintained.
105% / 1.2 = 87.5% == that is the number used).
It's also useful to know that although the display rounds to 2 decimal places, up to 4 decimal places are effective.
(75.227 == /throttle 0.7522 will set it as close as you can get without going over).
VemaGara
Wed Dec 29, 2004 2:58 pm
#8
The "too much speed" issue is what got meinto these calculations. I wanted to see how the numbers panned out.
VemaGara
Wed Dec 29, 2004 3:07 pm
#9
Ahhh, more numbers to crunch. I'll have to see if I can find those hidden statistics. Do you have a link or a thread that I can look at?
I didn't calculate engine overload 3 for simplicity. These are just the first pass.
I know that PY is important, but I wanted to explore the effects of hull speed limiters and optimum throttling. I wanted some ballpark figures to act as a baseline. In essence, based on your forumla, a higher YPR allows you to capture a higher percentage of your engine's speed.
Jagged-F3l
Wed Dec 29, 2004 11:20 pm
#10
Rogue1970 wrote:
You are very correct.
The only issue in a dogfight is typically YPR tho, and with the minimal differences we can actually make on those stats, its hard to justify even trying.
Cratfed engines are capable of stellar and 'un-needed' speed, and their only true justification is to make getting from Point A to Point B faster right now.
Until the Devs either combine YPR into one experimentation line AND/OR increase the effect of a point 10fold, there is no point in building the high Y or P or R engine (we can't do all 3 or even 2, heck even 1 to compete with loot).
The other day I took my Firespray up and used a crafted egine with low 50s for YPR, and about 89.5 speed - it handles like a pile of bricks and was near worthless, with a top tier crafted egine in it.
I then tossed my high mass cert 8 98.9speed engine with 75 avg YPRs and could take on anything in the galaxy like a dream at half throttle! I could whip around like an NPC TIE in that thing.
Our crafted engines sucks, no matter how good we make them and SPEED is not the determining factor of a good engine - it just looks pretty.....
First, I think you're missing the point of the thread. Independent of YPR, there does exist the notion of "optimal combat speed". It is fairly obvious, to even the casual observer, that "turns" (independent of what axes you take those turns on) will result in long loops if you keep your speed at 100% throttle, while throttling back too far will result in tight loops that take forever to execute.
Second, the devs will never wrap YPR into a single experimentation track. This was suggested during beta and it was decided it would detract from variation. It is my opinion that SWs need more experimentation points for engines and shields. There is precedent for this, as the devs gaveSWs 5 more experimentation points for weapons. The common misconception concerning YPR speed is that it is necessary to have symmetry along all axes. In real life this is rarely the case. Even in the Star Wars novels (such as the X-wing series) you can find references that elude to ships havingpoor maneuverability in one way or another. Typically, ship design focuses on good roll/pitch speed, sacrificing yaw speed (as yaw is typically used to fine adjustment).
Finally, I don't agree that speed is not a determining factor of a good engine. To say that speed is not the only determining factor to a good engine would be more accurate. However, speed is a factor in determining whether an engine is "good".
VemaGara
Thu Dec 30, 2004 1:27 am
#11
When you toss an engine onto a ship, how much of its speed do you actually get to use in a dogfight?
I've been doing some calculations to determine optimal combat speeds. The OCS is the speed where you get the best YPR from your airframe. The numbers are ... interesting. These numbers tell me that the community is missing a critical piece of information. It also tells me that those derned devs were far more clever than we thought.
Does anyone have good values for the optimal throttle percentages for each spaceframe? I think this is AS IMPORTANT as the speed multiplier, but it's less obvious. I'd really love to have some better numbers to plug in.
My current equation is:
Optimal Combat Speed (OCS) = (10 x Engine Speed x Chasis Speed Multiplier x Optimal Throttle Percentage)
For example, a Y-wing with a Tier9, 101 speed, 35k mass engine has an optimal combat speed of 485. Meanwhile, a TIE/ld with a Tier3, 57 speed, 2.5k mass engine has an optimal combat speed of 484. This is to say, speed is not a good measure of speed.
I've been doing some calculations to determine optimal combat speeds. The OCS is the speed where you get the best YPR from your airframe. The numbers are ... interesting. These numbers tell me that the community is missing a critical piece of information. It also tells me that those derned devs were far more clever than we thought.
Does anyone have good values for the optimal throttle percentages for each spaceframe? I think this is AS IMPORTANT as the speed multiplier, but it's less obvious. I'd really love to have some better numbers to plug in.
My current equation is:
Optimal Combat Speed (OCS) = (10 x Engine Speed x Chasis Speed Multiplier x Optimal Throttle Percentage)
For example, a Y-wing with a Tier9, 101 speed, 35k mass engine has an optimal combat speed of 485. Meanwhile, a TIE/ld with a Tier3, 57 speed, 2.5k mass engine has an optimal combat speed of 484. This is to say, speed is not a good measure of speed.
VemaGara
Thu Dec 30, 2004 5:59 am
#12
Too true.
What's the right speed engine? That's an important question. Common wisdom dictates faster, but there's a point where speed is detrimental. All the good pilots know it. One piece of data that I am missing is: what's the speed of an NPC for a given tier? That, in and of itself, would go a very long way to illustrate which engines to use.
What's the right speed engine? That's an important question. Common wisdom dictates faster, but there's a point where speed is detrimental. All the good pilots know it. One piece of data that I am missing is: what's the speed of an NPC for a given tier? That, in and of itself, would go a very long way to illustrate which engines to use.
Kalano
Thu Dec 30, 2004 12:23 pm
#13
VemaGara wrote:
Too true.
What's the right speed engine? That's an important question. Common wisdom dictates faster, but there's a point where speed is detrimental. All the good pilots know it. One piece of data that I am missing is: what's the speed of an NPC for a given tier? That, in and of itself, would go a very long way to illustrate which engines to use.
to get that info, you need to havea really fast engine,find similar alligned npc, then follow and/or match speed. you should get the info you need then. There is a possibility they only fly max speed in combat, then you would need a buddy in a opposite allignment to engage to get the npc to work. but i don't think that is true, but i won't bet on it either.
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