Shipwright Archive
Thread: Okay, do you guys know what's the maximum of each stat of each component?
Page 1 of 2
Akz
Mon Nov 01, 2004 7:53 am
#1
Not rushing y'all, but I'm getting a tad agitated at the moment. People are charging 20 CPU for Mark I/III stuff, and we (Pilots) don't even know what kind of resources they're using. They claim "Service, Quality and all that Mumbo Jumbo" but I won't be surprised if they're all using Grind quality stuff and make it the stuff, and charge 20X the price.
I know JTL is new, everyone wants a ship, so I can tolerate it for now, but it's very hard for us to swallow these prices w/o at least knowing if they're good or not. (Since we're not shipwrights, we don't know the % of the outcome of the resources the SW are using).
It'd be nice if you SW can come together and figure out the maximum number of each attribute can reach. (The number you get when you use perfect resources, which I know its not possible, for all other crafting Profs, we all know the 'Ball park range') So us Pilots, who are looking to buy the absolute best available stuff will know if the SW is actually making the best possible (thus justifying his prices) instead of just being a 'Used-Car-Salesman' where its all talk and no backing up with hard numbers.
What do you SW think?
(Or do you guys want to wait this period out, use up all your grind resources until us Pilots figure out the facts, then start using your uber resources? 
)
)
Bermag
Mon Nov 01, 2004 8:06 am
#2
Does it matter? Do what you would with everything else, check out various vendors for the best price/performance. It does not matter if 1 cpu resources are used or not if none is selling below 20 cpu anyway.
On some components there are a lot of different stats to experiment and also sub-components which change stats. Very hard to compare stats. Which is best, the weapon with X higher max dam but which has a lot higher mass and energy consumption and lower min damage than another with more balanced stats.
And comparing stats on different servers is hard. One server might have for example a very good steel in huge quantities whichwill make that server's compoents much better.
Akz
Mon Nov 01, 2004 9:31 am
#3
When you use perfect resources, you get 30% right off the bat for the stats.
OQ, CD, UT are the main stats looked at. Heck, we don't even need to know what those stats are, just the % you experimented up to and the stat that it is. IE: 90% on the Max Damage on a Mark 7 Blaster, and what that damage is.
For WS, the HAM cost, Ranged Acc modifiers at the moment do not play a big role as to Min/Max Damage. With FS in the game, speed isn't that important as well to Master Combat Professions. I'm sure over time people will realize what are the main attributes to look for and work from there. One of the reason I started this thread.
Ofcourse people can spend time running around look for the best price/performance.I started this thread so people can KNOW what to look for. Helping and informing the people.
Again, the more server that contribute to this, the better. We want to know the MAX stat, not the BEST stat. With the MAX, we can judge everything from there.
I know SW is a new Prof, people still want to figure out everything and stuff. But it is nice to know what's the Max Stat on each component.
Akz
Mon Nov 01, 2004 9:35 am
#4
This may help ya Bermag, since you're grinding for SW.
And to give an idea what I'm talking about, I wish some of the SW can get together and make a list like this. Gives the people an idea what a decent component/ship/stat should be! And to compare with it wit their local SW Products.
ZenDragonMLS
Mon Nov 01, 2004 9:52 am
#5
I understand what you are asking for. I think that several people, including me, are compiling this. It's not hard to do, but there are so many components, upgrades, and experiment lines that it takes awhile. I think it will be good to have all of this stuff so we can look at some of the balance issues with loadouts and stuff.
However, as already mentioned, I'm not sure that it will really tell you what you want to know. With multiple experiment lines, and with the reality of actual resources (for a new profession that hasn't seen multiple spawns of the new named resources), I don't think that you'll be able to conclude "oh, this guy didn't use top-end resources". Furthermore, without a history of the new resources, we don't know if some of them are "gated" or not (e.g., I think that iron never goes above 500 conductivity). So again, the SW may be using the best possible resources that are available, and still not coming close to the theoretical "MAX".
If YOU decide, as a pilot, that you want max hitpoints on your shield and lowest mass on your reactor (for example) then talk with a shipwright about making you a shield and a reactor that meet *your* needs. It may very well be that shipwright's opinion that most people would benefit from emphasising other attritutes on their shields or reactors, so the stuff on the vendor doesn't reflect what they *can* do in that area.
However, as already mentioned, I'm not sure that it will really tell you what you want to know. With multiple experiment lines, and with the reality of actual resources (for a new profession that hasn't seen multiple spawns of the new named resources), I don't think that you'll be able to conclude "oh, this guy didn't use top-end resources". Furthermore, without a history of the new resources, we don't know if some of them are "gated" or not (e.g., I think that iron never goes above 500 conductivity). So again, the SW may be using the best possible resources that are available, and still not coming close to the theoretical "MAX".
If YOU decide, as a pilot, that you want max hitpoints on your shield and lowest mass on your reactor (for example) then talk with a shipwright about making you a shield and a reactor that meet *your* needs. It may very well be that shipwright's opinion that most people would benefit from emphasising other attritutes on their shields or reactors, so the stuff on the vendor doesn't reflect what they *can* do in that area.
Akz
Mon Nov 01, 2004 9:58 am
#6
Sweet, glad to know this stuff is in the works.
Yes, I agree with flexibility and each Pilot to his own and the vendor does not reflect the full capabilities of the Shipwright him or herself.
Gating is another pain in the ( )( ) issue that I'll to leave it to you major crafters to figure it out
I just really hate being in dark but it's kinda cool being or having the feeling of being a 'nub'.
BoogerSlinger
Mon Nov 01, 2004 10:18 am
#7
I too would love to see how this turns out. Will be great info to know.
ZenDragonMLS
Mon Nov 01, 2004 10:26 am
#8
Here is one example of what we can do with this kind of information. It currently has ***BETA VALUES*** so please don't assume that it reflects the current live values.
This shows the theoretical min and max for the 5 different levels of armor, along with the min-max of the upgrades applied to it.
Starship Armor - ***BETA VALUES***
This shows the theoretical min and max for the 5 different levels of armor, along with the min-max of the upgrades applied to it.
Starship Armor - ***BETA VALUES***
jrscott
Mon Nov 01, 2004 11:52 am
#9
ZenDragonMLS wrote:
If YOU decide, as a pilot, that you want max hitpoints on your shield and lowest mass on your reactor (for example) then talk with a shipwright about making you a shield and a reactor that meet *your* needs. It may very well be that shipwright's opinion that most people would benefit from emphasising other attritutes on their shields or reactors, so the stuff on the vendor doesn't reflect what they *can* do in that area.
Amen! And this is why the concept of a simple list of max values is only half of the equation. The chart somebody hyperlinked (or stickied, I hate that word) earlier was a good scientific view of desirable ranges of stats and reflected that pushing one stat pulled on another. Starships and components are NOT going to be like weapons, and cannot be looked at in the same simple way we do weapons. I am afraid the original poster is going to be frustrated for a long time because there is no linear list.
That being said, it will be nice to see what the max for any given stat is. But consumers are going to have to get used to the concept that if they want UBER damage, they may have to give up armor or shield protection to get that. What if your beautiful, crafted Ion Blaster that isgoing to cutholes in everybody's shields takes up a little too much mass or power? You might have to go with that lower level armor to keep it on your ship. I love it, make people think for once. No more UBER - templates!
Another thing I THINK I have noticed is that Starship crafting does not seem nearly as predictable as other professions.Two great assemblies on a Chassis Blueprint for the same chassis type with the same resourcesseem to result in much difference in stats with different distributions. It's not like a VK where you use the same resources on 2, get the same crafting results and have exactly the same stats on them.
I for one am very seriously considering totally dropping WS in favor of Shipwright because of the ability to customize more stats, and the likelihood that customers will have different needs from one another as opposed to everybody demandingthe Nym Enhanced VK with a 35% damage slice. I for one don't want to grind for my whole SWG life.
Message Edited by jrscott on 11-01-2004 04:00 PM
Little-Green-Guy
Mon Nov 01, 2004 12:11 pm
#10
Akz, what you have to keep in mind is the complexity (and options) of all the sub-components and primary components. Not to mention the experimentation on each of the different lines. The beauty about crafting in SW is, you can customize components to meet individual needs ( with respects to the best resources obtainable or simply, resources in general). So many outcomes and so many different results are obtainable within the realm of possibilty.
You'll find that alot of us get feedback from our customers.
i.e.
Proton Missle packs..some pilots prefer additional quantities and a more rapid refire rate in lieu of Max and Min damage. So many possibilities are aviable to customize.
ZenDragonMLS
Mon Nov 01, 2004 12:23 pm
#11
Another piece of the puzzle is that we don't have uniform "leverage" on all of the attributes, so that will drive some crafting decisions.
By leverage I mean "how much impact can the crafter have on this attribute?"
By example, a master artisan making a vehicle has a theoretical leverage of 150% - a swoop with a 0% experimentation has 1000 hitpoints, whereas one with 100% experimentation is 2500 hitpoints. That's a pretty reasonable leverage.
In contrast (using Beta numbers here - I'm still gathering live numbers), a shipwright has very low leverage (5% or so?) on a chassis mass and better leverage (35-40%?) on the chassis hitpoints. Neither of those is earthshattering, but just given those you would tend to put your points into hitpoints, and then leftovers into mass. It *may* be the case that the attribute that you have as a #1 priority doesn't have much leverage - so you have to decide if you want a 5% bump on it or a 30% bump on a different attribute.
To make this a little more complex, look at blasters. It may be the case that the individual attributes have relatively low leverage (e.g., you can only change min damage by 15%). However, your actual damage per second is affected by the damage, the firing rate, and things like effectiveness against armor or shields. So a shipright might want to pop each of those 10% to end up with more than 30% increase in damage per second.
By leverage I mean "how much impact can the crafter have on this attribute?"
By example, a master artisan making a vehicle has a theoretical leverage of 150% - a swoop with a 0% experimentation has 1000 hitpoints, whereas one with 100% experimentation is 2500 hitpoints. That's a pretty reasonable leverage.
In contrast (using Beta numbers here - I'm still gathering live numbers), a shipwright has very low leverage (5% or so?) on a chassis mass and better leverage (35-40%?) on the chassis hitpoints. Neither of those is earthshattering, but just given those you would tend to put your points into hitpoints, and then leftovers into mass. It *may* be the case that the attribute that you have as a #1 priority doesn't have much leverage - so you have to decide if you want a 5% bump on it or a 30% bump on a different attribute.
To make this a little more complex, look at blasters. It may be the case that the individual attributes have relatively low leverage (e.g., you can only change min damage by 15%). However, your actual damage per second is affected by the damage, the firing rate, and things like effectiveness against armor or shields. So a shipright might want to pop each of those 10% to end up with more than 30% increase in damage per second.
Bermag
Tue Nov 02, 2004 5:17 am
#12
Akz wrote:
When you use perfect resources, you get 30% right off the bat for the stats.
OQ, CD, UT are the main stats looked at. Heck, we don't even need to know what those stats are, just the % you experimented up to and the stat that it is. IE: 90% on the Max Damage on a Mark 7 Blaster, and what that damage is.
For WS, the HAM cost, Ranged Acc modifiers at the moment do not play a big role as to Min/Max Damage. With FS in the game, speed isn't that important as well to Master Combat Professions. I'm sure over time people will realize what are the main attributes to look for and work from there. One of the reason I started this thread.
Resource stats are not that improtant if you are not maximizing a stat and reach resource cap. If you don't experiment each stat to max there will be less difference iin stats, only the difference that you get on initial assembly.
I am talking about ship weapons, not ground weapons. What is best for you? Highest possible, max damage, low spread on damage, fast refire rate, low energy consumption, low mass. And oh do you want to have higher efficiency on shields or armor or a balance ?
That are some choices for just weapons. Now how do you expect to be able to compare stats? It is not what a SW can do but what the customer wants. To early to say which is the best way to go. There will probably be a few "mainstream" variations of each component (and always the option to custom order) after a while.
There might also be some combination of sub-components and experimentation that will be the best balance. Here the true skill of the SW comes in and this is what makes SW very exciting. A lot more possible combinations to play with.
In 3 months we will probably laugh at many of the FAQs out there now. Just like we do with the FAQs written for ground combat form the firts months of SWG.
I remember when I asked an armorsmith to put a stun layer in a helmet and was laughed at. Got the answer "you are cracking me up, who would bring a Jawa to a fight", loltt took like 3 months before people got it. I just wished I had time back then to do PvP. I would have owned lol, but otoh armor was not 80-90% resists. What is the best way to go will change over time.
The best information what to do don't come from other crafters. It comes from those using your items. I have learned most of what I know today about weapons by listening to my customers. The same apply to ship components, and even a lot more important.
hase2
Tue Nov 02, 2004 6:01 am
#13
yeah - exspecially for weapons.
since there you got other components directly related to your individual weapon demands.
take an Xwing. it can carry 3 guns max. but to keep em running you need a fairly large capacitor with good recharge.
so when i buy guns for it i would like to have guns that have the lowerst energy drain possible.
on the other hand there is an awing.
it can carry only one gun - so i should be fine with a halfway decent capacitor. then i might prefer a gun with either higher damage or that fires faster.
Page 1 of 2