Shipwright Archive
Thread: Number of shipwrights in decline? Is is starting? How is it on your server?
Message Edited by Subcriminal on 01-06-2005 03:13 PM
Subcriminal wrote:
It's been said before, but crafting really isn't a great profession choicefor casual players. All crafting professions are pretty time intensive.
Message Edited by Subcriminal on 01-06-2005 03:13 PM
This is not entirely true. I make good use of my factories for my architect profession. I don't have to spend hours onit like I "have" to do for shipwright. If you are a casual player and have 1 to 1 1/2 hours a day to play, stay away from shipwright. With any other crafting profession, if you have the right resources, you can make good use of factories..
EdOWar wrote:
Please read what I said very carefully. I said that no shipwright item requires a sub-component. All shipwright items only have optional sub-components. And even then you can only use one optional sub-component. By way of example, a laser rifle requiresthree power-handlers and a blaster rifle barrel, and can take two optional sub-componets (scope and stock)--and quality matters for every sub-component in that rifle.
In my view, a laser rifle should be infinitely less complex item to make than, say, a fusion generator. A fusion generator is basically tapping the same energy generated by stars, and keeping it bottled up with a magnetic field in a tiny metal container without exploding. But no sub-components are required for that reactor. In game terms, it's less complex to craft a fusion reactor than it is to craft a laser rifle.
So your point is that ship parts are less complex- but only if you leave the optional subcomponents out? No offense dude, but that's a rather weak argument. In reality no shipwright worth their salt leaves out the subcomponents or they would be making something NO ONE WILL WANT TO BUY. In "theory" yes they don't need to use them, in PRACTICE they certainly do and that is what ultimately what matters and it sends your "less complex" theory down the toilet.
I agree that using the optional sub-components in shipwright items makes them better...but that wasn't my point. My point is that shipwright is much less complex than any other crafting profession, and this is one reasonwhy full factory support isn't needed.
See above.
Hell, with factory support, I could just plop the resources in a factory and pump out 1,000 top-of-the-line reactors. Do you think that 1,000 reactors would be enough to supply the entire server? I sure do, at least for a good while.
WTH are you babbling about now? Where do you get off that I want factory support?
Second, no you couldn't mass produce "top-of-the-line" reactors without subcomponents. Oh but wait according to you they're "optional" and lowballers can compete with the rest of us by not using them.. Riiiiight.
Even compared to Tailor, shipwright is still crafting for dummies. True, resource quality isn't important for Tailor, but they still require sub-components (trim, metal fasteners, synthcloth, fiberpanels, reinforced fiberpanels...I'm sure there are others), thus makingTailor a more complex crafting profession.
As a former tailor I can say that the paragraph above is full of hooey. Resource quality and rare spawns adds many new levels to crafting that tailoring completely lacks. I left tailoring a loooong loooooong time ago because it was boring, uninteresting and certainly not challenging enough. More complex that SW? Not by a longshot. Also, the subcomponents that tailors use aren't nearlyas complex as the ones SW's use. More details later.
You can't just slap together some steel, copper, aluminum, ore, radioactive and polymer and plop out a finished product. First you need to do a factory run of synthcloth. Then you migh also need a run of trim and/or metal fasteners. Maybe you need some reinforced fiberpanel too. I'll grant that quality and experimentation doesn't matter in this, but it still takes time, planning and eats up factory time.
Tailoring is as sterile a profession as it gets. You really try to make it sound exciting, you poor misinformed soul. The truth is that it's crap. Lack of experimentation is what makes the profession simple, easy, plain, a walk in the park, or "not-complex". There are only7 subcomponents you ever need to worry about: fiberplast panel, reinforced fiberplast panel, synth cloth, fasteners, shoe soles, gemstone settings and cargo pockets. Since resource quality doesn't matter all you need to do is put up factories and make a motherloadof these things.Since resource quality doesn't matter, you don't have toworry about remaking a superior, revisedbatchif a better resource spawns. I never wasted any time with factories when I was in the tailoring biz because all I needed to do was one big facotry run and I was set for months on end. Borrrrringgg! My factories were NEVER busy.
In addition, you were stuck to one kind of subcomponent in the schematic for making clothes- there was no picking and choosing because clothing is SIMPLE and serves no real purpose. With shipwright you have a wide array of subcomponets you can choose from to produce a different, customized end product. Need an enegry saving blaster? Coll we can make that. Need something that eats away at the enemy's armor a bit more? Cool, we can make that. Need some armor that's light? Need some that's heavier but more rugged? Need a capacitor that recharges fast or holds a lot more power? Need a version of this reactor that's lighter?
You couldn't customize your clothes at all. You couldn't do anything with your clothes unless you sacrificed your first born for some tissue made by a Bio-Engineer, as a result I find that tailoring is one of the most castrated professions out there.
Not only do shipwrights have more subcomponets available, they serve a wide array of purposes and tailoring just can't hold a candle toIN PRACTICE with complexity, options, customizing and experimentation.
No crafting profession is for half-hearted or casual players, at least not if you want to run a successful business.
LOL.I'm doing rather well fora casual player.Been a crafter since launch, went from one crafting profession to the next as I tried different things. Ido all the legwork myself and I am doing justfine.In other words, speak for yourself. While most casual players prefer to do something else, there are those of us who work smarter, not harder. No need to be a powergamer who lives online to be a crafter. Sure it makes it easier but it's not a prerequisite.
You're right that resource quality is an important factor. But it's not that hard to get large quatities of resources with a little help from a guild or some friend. I use 10 heavy mineral harvestors. On a 80-90% spot I can get roughly 1 million resource units in a week. In a two week span I could get over 2 million resource units. Even a low-baller can last long enough to get to the next decent spawn on 2million units of a really good resource. True, you need more than just onetype of goodresource to be successful, but without help from guild members or friends, no shipwright is going to get every resource they need in just a week anyways.
Not of the lowballer is charging 1-5cpu for ship parts. The shipwright resource requirements are sooo high they'd piss through 2 million resources easy. I piss through 2 million resources each time I restock. How you'd predict a lowballer to last until the next spawn sounds like twisted logic. Furthermore, why would a lowballer piss away good resources like this when he KNOWS he can make more $$ selling the resources? Lowballers are out for money, the motives don't match. Any lowballer in the SW profession will die fast.
And for the record, lining up a factory run of composite armor isn't easy. First you run the layers, then the segments, then the final pieces of comp armor. And there are nine pieces of comp armor to run (with multiple segments in each piece), and 1,000 layers won't be enough to do a full run of all 9 armor pieces, so you have to make multiple schematics oflayers and figure out how to use them between the segments, and you'll probably have to do multiple schematics of segments too. Mind you, this is all for just one run of comp armor. The logistics are mind-boggling andcan take days, even weeks to finish a run of comp armor. Which is why I left AS (give me WS anyday of the week.
). No lazy-ass low-baller would want to do the work, even if he had an unlimited amount of uber-resources.
Yes I know. I was an armorsmith before I decided to go shipwright. AS is more complex than SW, I'll give ya that. But tailoring? come on, get real.
Here's my point about factory support. Time spent producing required sub-components in a factory is time spent not producing a finished saleable product. In other words, required sub-components are a time-sink that help to limit the level of production. A T-21 requires 10 blaster power handlers with the same serial number (as well as a blaster rifle....................(SNIP)........current level of craftingcomplexity, servers will be flooded with easily produced product. Buying the cheap stuff and reselling it for a mark-up would be pointless, because the low-ballers would just crank out another 100 reactors or blasters in their factory.
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
I'm not arguing with you about factories, dude. You're preaching to the choir. I just know you're way off-track about tailoring being more complex than SW- which is most certainly is not - and that you seem to think subcomponents are optional, when in practice they absolutely essential.
Message Edited by Subcriminal on 01-07-2005 11:22 AM
Subcriminal wrote:
EdOWar wrote:
Please read what I said very carefully. I said that no shipwright item requires a sub-component. All shipwright items only have optional sub-components. And even then you can only use one optional sub-component. By way of example, a laser rifle requiresthree power-handlers and a blaster rifle barrel, and can take two optional sub-componets (scope and stock)--and quality matters for every sub-component in that rifle.
In my view, a laser rifle should be infinitely less complex item to make than, say, a fusion generator. A fusion generator is basically tapping the same energy generated by stars, and keeping it bottled up with a magnetic field in a tiny metal container without exploding. But no sub-components are required for that reactor. In game terms, it's less complex to craft a fusion reactor than it is to craft a laser rifle.
So your point is that ship parts are less complex- but only if you leave the optional subcomponents out? No offense dude, but that's a rather weak argument. In reality no shipwright worth their salt leaves out the subcomponents or they would be making something NO ONE WILL WANT TO BUY. In "theory" yes they don't need to use them, in PRACTICE they certainly do and that is what ultimately what matters and it sends your "less complex" theory down the toilet.
I can tell you haven't gotten my point at all. I'm not really sure how I can break it down any more clear for you to understand. But a shipwright component with only one sub-component (whether optional or not) is certainly less complex to craft (in game terms) than a crafted item that requires several sub-components.
I agree that using the optional sub-components in shipwright items makes them better...but that wasn't my point. My point is that shipwright is much less complex than any other crafting profession, and this is one reasonwhy full factory support isn't needed.
See above.
Hell, with factory support, I could just plop the resources in a factory and pump out 1,000 top-of-the-line reactors. Do you think that 1,000 reactors would be enough to supply the entire server? I sure do, at least for a good while.
WTH are you babbling about now? Where do you get off that I want factory support?
Sorry, for some reason I got the idea you were in favor of factory support. I apologize if I was mistaken.
Second, no you couldn't mass produce "top-of-the-line" reactors without subcomponents. Oh but wait according to you they're "optional" and lowballers can compete with the rest of us by not using them.. Riiiiight.
Okay, so first you run 1,000 sub-components, then you run 1,000 reactors. The point remains that with shipwright crafting it would be easy to over-produce.
Even compared to Tailor, shipwright is still crafting for dummies. True, resource quality isn't important for Tailor, but they still require sub-components (trim, metal fasteners, synthcloth, fiberpanels, reinforced fiberpanels...I'm sure there are others), thus makingTailor a more complex crafting profession.
As a former tailor I can say that the paragraph above is full of hooey. Resource quality and rare spawns adds many new levels to crafting that tailoring completely lacks. I left tailoring a loooong loooooong time ago because it was boring, uninteresting and certainly not challenging enough. More complex that SW? Not by a longshot. Also, the subcomponents that tailors use aren't nearlyas complex as the ones SW's use. More details later.
Tailor is more complex, from the standpoint that multiple sub-components are required. I think maybe we're arguing two different things here...apples and oranges.
You can't just slap together some steel, copper, aluminum, ore, radioactive and polymer and plop out a finished product. First you need to do a factory run of synthcloth. Then you migh also need a run of trim and/or metal fasteners. Maybe you need some reinforced fiberpanel too. I'll grant that quality and experimentation doesn't matter in this, but it still takes time, planning and eats up factory time.
Tailoring is as sterile a profession as it gets. You really try to make it sound exciting, you poor misinformed soul.
Geez, no need to be insulting. And don't put words into my mouth...no where did I say that Tailor is really exciting.
The truth is that it's crap. Lack of experimentation is what makes the profession simple, easy, plain, a walk in the park, or "not-complex". There are only7 subcomponents you ever need to worry about: fiberplast panel, reinforced fiberplast panel, synth cloth, fasteners, shoe soles, gemstone settings and cargo pockets. Since resource quality doesn't matter all you need to do is put up factories and make a motherloadof these things.Since resource quality doesn't matter, you don't have toworry about remaking a superior, revisedbatchif a better resource spawns. I never wasted any time with factories when I was in the tailoring biz because all I needed to do was one big facotry run and I was set for months on end. Borrrrringgg! My factories were NEVER busy.
In addition, you were stuck to one kind of subcomponent in the schematic for making clothes- there was no picking and choosing because clothing is SIMPLE and serves no real purpose. With shipwright you have a wide array of subcomponets you can choose from to produce a different, customized end product. Need an enegry saving blaster? Coll we can make that. Need something that eats away at the enemy's armor a bit more? Cool, we can make that. Need some armor that's light? Need some that's heavier but more rugged? Need a capacitor that recharges fast or holds a lot more power? Need a version of this reactor that's lighter?
You couldn't customize your clothes at all. You couldn't do anything with your clothes unless you sacrificed your first born for some tissue made by a Bio-Engineer, as a result I find that tailoring is one of the most castrated professions out there.
Not only do shipwrights have more subcomponets available, they serve a wide array of purposes and tailoring just can't hold a candle toIN PRACTICE with complexity, options, customizing and experimentation.
You have a point about how shipwright sub-components can be mixed and matched to make different results in the same product. This certainly increases the complexity of shipwright. But it's still not anywhere on the level of making a suit of comp armor or a rocket launcher or evena laser rifle.
No crafting profession is for half-hearted or casual players, at least not if you want to run a successful business.
LOL.I'm doing rather well fora casual player.Been a crafter since launch, went from one crafting profession to the next as I tried different things. Ido all the legwork myself and I am doing justfine.In other words, speak for yourself. While most casual players prefer to do something else, there are those of us who work smarter, not harder. No need to be a powergamer who lives online to be a crafter. Sure it makes it easier but it's not a prerequisite.
Good, I'm glad it works for you. Though it might depend on what our definitions of 'casual' are. I play from 2 or 3 hours a night and consider myself a casual player, but to some of my friends who can only play 2-3 hours a week I'm a power-gamer. If someone want's to be a big-name crafter, I don't see how they can do it only playing an hour or two a night.
You're right that resource quality is an important factor. But it's not that hard to get large quatities of resources with a little help from a guild or some friend. I use 10 heavy mineral harvestors. On a 80-90% spot I can get roughly 1 million resource units in a week. In a two week span I could get over 2 million resource units. Even a low-baller can last long enough to get to the next decent spawn on 2million units of a really good resource. True, you need more than just onetype of goodresource to be successful, but without help from guild members or friends, no shipwright is going to get every resource they need in just a week anyways.
Not of the lowballer is charging 1-5cpu for ship parts. The shipwright resource requirements are sooo high they'd piss through 2 million resources easy. I piss through 2 million resources each time I restock. How you'd predict a lowballer to last until the next spawn sounds like twisted logic.
I said 2 million units of one type of resource. With lot trades or guild backing they could be pulling in 10's of millions of resources in a week.
Furthermore, why would a lowballer piss away good resources like this when he KNOWS he can make more $$ selling the resources? Lowballers are out for money, the motives don't match. Any lowballer in the SW profession will die fast.
And yet this is clearly shown to be not true. There are plenty of shipwright low-ballers who sell parts for less than they could sell the resources for. I agree that any low-baller in shipwright will die fast...as long as they don't have full factory support (which we seem to agree on).
And for the record, lining up a factory run of composite armor isn't easy. First you run the layers, then the segments, then the final pieces of comp armor. And there are nine pieces of comp armor to run (with multiple segments in each piece), and 1,000 layers won't be enough to do a full run of all 9 armor pieces, so you have to make multiple schematics oflayers and figure out how to use them between the segments, and you'll probably have to do multiple schematics of segments too. Mind you, this is all for just one run of comp armor. The logistics are mind-boggling andcan take days, even weeks to finish a run of comp armor. Which is why I left AS (give me WS anyday of the week.
Yes I know. I was an armorsmith before I decided to go shipwright. AS is more complex than SW, I'll give ya that. But tailoring? come on, get real.
Here's my point about factory support. Time spent producing required sub-components in a factory is time spent not producing a finished saleable product. In other words, required sub-components are a time-sink that help to limit the level of production. A T-21 requires 10 blaster power handlers with the same serial number (as well as a blaster rifle....................(SNIP)........current level of craftingcomplexity, servers will be flooded with easily produced product. Buying the cheap stuff and reselling it for a mark-up would be pointless, because the low-ballers would just crank out another 100 reactors or blasters in their factory.
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
I'm not arguing with you about factories, dude. You're preaching to the choir. I just know you're way off-track about tailoring being more complex than SW- which is most certainly is not - and that you seem to think subcomponents are optional, when in practice they absolutely essential.
Technically speaking I am correct--shipwright sub-components are optional, though they can certainly be very useful. However, considering that shipwrigth sub-components have both negative and positive features (i.e. give more armor points, but add mass as well), I don't think they are necessarily essential--it just depends on what result you're trying to get.
Message Edited by Subcriminal on 01-07-2005 11:22 AM
I guess I just didn't explain my point very clearly, and the point may be mootin your case because we're clearly both against full factory support for shipwright. To summarize for everyone else, giving shipwright full factory support will drasticallyincrease production. Increased production without any increase in demand will result in overproduction anda collapse inprices. 'nuff said.
EdOWar wrote:
I can tell you haven't gotten my point at all. I'm not really sure how I can break it down any more clear for you to understand. But a shipwright component with only one sub-component (whether optional or not) is certainly less complex to craft (in game terms) than a crafted item that requires several sub-components.
No, it's pretty clear to me that you don't know the difference between theory and practice.
Sorry, for some reason I got the idea you were in favor of factory support. I apologize if I was mistaken.
Accepted, no prob.
Okay, so first you run 1,000 sub-components, then you run 1,000 reactors. The point remains that with shipwright crafting it would be easy to over-produce.
Yes but we cleared up my stance on factories, so I guess we can drop this one.
Tailor is more complex, from the standpoint that multiple sub-components are required. I think maybe we're arguing two different things here...apples and oranges.
I think I clearly illustrated why subcomponents are more complex for Shipwright when compared to Tailoring: there's more of them, each serves different purposed for the final combine and there are several different ones you may use for each schematic. All of the mentioned does not exist for tailoring. Since resource quality and experimentation don't apply to tailoring, it woudln't be fair to compare the two anyway.
Geez, no need to be insulting. And don't put words into my mouth...no where did I say that Tailor is really exciting.
Sorry, didn't mean to get insulting. But as you can tell I was bored as hell with tailoring, and SW has much more to offer in terms of being more challenging.
You have a point about how shipwright sub-components can be mixed and matched to make different results in the same product. This certainly increases the complexity of shipwright. But it's still not anywhere on the level of making a suit of comp armor or a rocket launcher or evena laser rifle.
Yes I know. I was an armorsmith and had mentioned that I did think AS was harder than SW.
I said 2 million units of one type of resource. With lot trades or guild backing they could be pulling in 10's of millions of resources in a week.
I've gone through 2 millof one type ofhigh quality steel in one restocking.
And yet this is clearly shown to be not true. There are plenty of shipwright low-ballers who sell parts for less than they could sell the resources for. I agree that any low-baller in shipwright will die fast...as long as they don't have full factory support (which we seem to agree on).
And these people selling far less than resource value are fleeing the SW business right now. Yay.
Technically speaking I am correct--shipwright sub-components are optional, though they can certainly be very useful. However, considering that shipwrigth sub-components have both negative and positive features (i.e. give more armor points, but add mass as well), I don't think they are necessarily essential--it just depends on what result you're trying to get.
"Technically speaking" = "in theory"... Practice is something else. Places that don't use subcomponents in their products, at least around my shop, have pretty much vanished because their components just can't beat the more elite crafters out there.