Scout Archive

Terrain is one of the key factors in any combat situations. yet in SWG, terrain negotiation turns the the extremely rough terrain of dathomir into no bigger a factor than walking through level ground.

In my opinion, terrain negotiation should be removed from the exploration tree and it should all be bundled into Master Scout.

This opens the way for true scouting classes to fulfill their duties. Rangers and Master Scouts get to recon ahead of a group (when on foot) and be the ones who have the mobility advantage. Bounty Hunters gain a significant upper hand since they can zip through terrain while in combat (for really, i doubt the BH's need master scout because of their camping, trapping or creature knowledge skills).

Combat classes in turn, cease with the quake-style combat (at least in rough terrain), introducing the element of holding ground to any fight. If you opponents need to fight hill by hill to get to your base instead of simply running up and down the hills with little effort, well, you get the picture.

Squad Leaders become important (for once) in leading groups, for their terrain neg. would apply to the entire group. Riflemen/master scouts become true snipers. shoot and duck.

The use of terrain is nonexistent in this game, its almost laughable that its even in the game the way its implemented.

Tac,

While I agree with some of what you've said, I think the system as it stands now is in pretty good shape.

There are many combat classes who don't have Scouting at all, which gives them a greater need for Squad Leaders, when they are PvEing. So they are already important for that skill. When I dropped Ranger to go Squad Leader for my PA, the first thing they demanded was that I train the terrain negotiation tree.

Second, the exploration dabble is one that I don't think harms Scouts at all. Many folks stick with scout in order to get the exploration. But the "uber" PvP templates simply don't have the skill points to do that. Most folks who have it are resource gatherers, true Scouts and our elite professions.

I'd like to get more community feedback on this. Does anyone else agree with Tac?

B

As one of the few people who regulary preach tactics, I agree with ya.

Most of the combat classes use what I call "Duke Nuk'em" tactics. I shall stand in this one spot, spray and hopefully slay, and mayhaps when I drop, a medic will rez me.

I laugh at those clowns, bleed and kite and generally win.

Most BHs fall into that category, so they are really hosed, can't kill a mark even.

Gotta clue ya tho, Ranger areatrack is way more important in recon than TN. I swoop in, stay 300 m out (off radar), do a quick areatrack for players, then NPCs. I can tell who, where, whatin less than 1 minute. Accurate and fast. Been doing it for weeks now. I am the recon section. I then set a camp as a rally pt, we gather, buff, store vehicles, call pets, then go and slay stupid lil impies.

(Sorry Brisc, had to say it, but it's the truth, tho stupid knows no sides, plenty of dumb rebs too)

TN seems most important to me in hunting. I can kite a mob without burst run. Just give me a ravine or wadi, a rise and I keep a decent lead while never getting hit and slaying lots of big old nasty beasties (torturs are my current specialty).

I will say this, those that use tacticsdo win more often than not. Numbers matter, tactics matter more.

JB

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tacwraith wrote:

You missed my point delta. Its not that some combat proffessions have or dont have terrain negotiation.

its the fact that terrain negotiation at just box3 of a scout tree negates practically all terrain movement penalties.

It's not "box 3" of the Scout tree. You get it at each level of the Exploration tree. So if you go all the way up, you're going to get the most out of it. And it costs them 29 skill points to get it. That's a hefty price to pay - a price that would probably be better spent by dabbling in the medic profession, as terrain negotiation on matters on hilly terrain, and most PvP and other types of fights happen on flat terrain.

With terrain neg only at master scout, ALL combat profs (except BH, ranger is not combat prof) cease to have terrain negation. It opens a more tactical gameplay, master scout classes (BH, master scout and ranger included)become the only ones fitfor combat recon/flanking roles.. and an even more important, practically vital role for squad leaders being the only ones that can give terrain neg to everyone in group.

I'm not sure if it's going to have exactly the effect that you predict here, primarily because I haven't seen that many fights that occur on hilly terrain. In fact, I would submit that the combat profs would specifically NOT attack in hilly terrain simply because they recognize that they are hurt when they do so.

"Second, the exploration dabble is one that I don't think harms Scouts at all"

not the point at all. This is about how terrain neg in box3 of scout harms combat overall. If you have played WW2OL you would know just how important terrain becomes in a player's mind when it becomes a deciding factor on who wins the fight and who loses it.

Exactly. Which is why if you take this out and provide it only to Scouts, Rangers and BHs, you're going to see no fights on hilly terrain (not that you much of that anyway). Most PVP occurs in player cities and regular cities, where people congregate, so hilly terrain doesn't exist. Most PvE only relies on terrain negotiation if you're running away. And mounts and speeders take care of most of that.

resource gatherers dont need scouting skills any more. Speeders did away with the need for terrain neg.

Yup.

Ill give you a good example of this. Go to Talus, look at the map. on the SE corner of the map theres this deep canyon. Think of it like the grand canyon. almost 90 degree walls, abot 80m high, with a river at the bottom.

Put one team of players on one side, another on the other side. both teams having exploration 3. have them fight. You will see mr Melee class running towards the canyon... zipping the bottom of it, crossing the river and zipping UP the other wall just as fast as he fell down from his side of the canyon.

Now imagine one side had their faction base placed just next to the canyon because it made sense to put a natural barrier to slow the attackers down... makes sense, but in the game's reality its pointless. people zip up with little penalty.

Technically, that area would be no build anyway, but I see your point. But again, ravine would be useful on one side, but the other three are going to flat. There aren't that many buildable valleys in the game. And most PvP doesn't take place there anyway.

Its an issue that affects the combat gameplay proffession-wide. Moving the terrain neg to master scout fixes this issue and does not penalize the scouting classes at all, for the ranger and BH need the master scout, SL has their own terrain neg, creature handlers have fast creatures with good terrain neg, bio engineers have speeders to get to their dna sample spots, master scouts get a real perk in their prof and become valuable as a 'mobility' master box for any combat proffession.

I understand your point, and I want to find as many ways to make scouting more valuable, but I just don't think that making it harder for folks to get terrain negotiation is the way to go. You're just forcing more people to take a profession they don't want to get a skill they don't really need.

We've proposed some other ideas to make TN more useful - including extending it to Mounts. I hope that those get addressed, because they would provide a boon to everyone, not just those with the desire to master our great profession.

B

box3 exploration gives them just a bit under the terrain movement cap. terrain neg past +50 only increases crawl speed, not uphill movement speed. and 24 skill points (box3, for box4 gives no terrain bonus) to quake around terrain is a very cheap investment.

and there is a LOT of pvp that takes place in rough terrain. namely faction base defense/attack. theres the overts that meet overt on advanced, rough terrain planets. Try participating in the GCW, most people put faction bases in rough terrain because thats usually the most isolated spots they can find are in rough terrain.

in essence, terrain neg at near +50 at just box3, or 24 skillpoints, is akin to the issue of novice medic stimb usage.. a novice heals as good as a master medic with minimal point investment. and you can bet novice medic will soon be using only stimA's.