Scout Archive

Hi Fellow Scouts:

With the changes lately, I've been feeling more and more as though the key scouting capabilities have been reduced to insignificance in the current game system. I'm posting to see if anyone else is experiencing the same thing, and to see if anyone has any ideas about how we can reverse this.

I'm an old time Master Scout on Bria (MS since 7/2/03). I really consider scout to be my primary class, although I've added BH, CH and Pistoleer onto it for the excellent capabilities added by those professions. But now for the first time I'm seriously considering dropping some of the scout capabilities.

Terrain Negotiation is no longer particularly useful -- mounts and vehicles are both better. Mask scent still works, but compared to flying by the mobs at untouchable speed, it is no longer the most effective way to travel safely.

Creature harvesting -- no complaints -- it still works as always. But money is not really a problem -- with multi-million credit reserves I frequently don't bother harvesting anymore.

Creature knowledge has always been a week area. MOB CL's are common knowledge now and the key information (resistances) are available even to non-scouts.

Trapping has been left in the dust by the massive escalation of firepower. Given a choice between hitting a mob with a bone spur or thousands of points of damage, which do you choose?

The scout profession and the scout boards have been a haven of cooperation and happiness compared to the cesspool that are most profession boards. That's good in that it's a great place to read and learn (kudos to our correspondent), but it's bad in that scouts have received almost no attention in months.

Frankly, I think the "game as it's played now" to paraphrase Holocron, has passed us by.People are anxious to lose the "camp requirement" to call out their pets and vehicles (I understand why eventhough I always have a couple crates of tents on me).

With no significant advantages either economic or financial (whatever happened to better monkey making?) scouting appears to no longer be good for anything except torturing BH newbies.

Anxious to hear other's opinions,

Best Regards,

Oirff

I agree 100% with what you said in your post...now just imagine how us Rangers feel. We were always just marginally better than a scout, now I would love to know why I have all these points invested in scout and ranger.

Guys,

To a certain extent, I agree with this stuff. Which is why I'm working hard with Thunderheart to get some of these changes we've been talking about since September addressed.

More information is going to be out on those issues soon - we just had some new information from TH and we're working on getting it out to ya'll.

I'm hoping that some of the points that you've addressed here will be included.

One other thing to remember - with all of the CLs being adjusted, /examine is going to be more useful again.

B

I've been playing for a week, and I'm kinda undecided on how I like the whole Scout thing.

I definately can't afford a vehicle yet, and won't be able to for some time (especially with the maintenance costs I've been hearing about), so terrain negotiation is very helpful. I don't know how many times I've been saved from enemy NPCs on Tatooine by running in & out of ravines.

I haven't found tents to be that useful, but then again, I'm not a healer, creature handler, or entertainer. I imagine tents will be useful when I'm with a group doing a 48 hour tweekend and we're too lazy to go back to town to heal. But I've found I can game for a good 4-5 hours solo before I'm so wounded or fatigued that I need to go to town.

Harvesting's handy, but I wouldn't miss it if I didn't have it.

Trapping sucks. The traps aren't useful, and leveling traps is boring. Forunately, it's easy. I get a minimum of 200 XP on each creature by opening each attack with four traps. Sometimes, multiple traps of the same type will work on a creature. If this happens, I'll empty my inventory on him & walk away with 1K+ XP.

Is trapping useful in a group? I could see the benefit of glow juicing a rancor, but I'm a ways away from that.

Ultimately, my overall impression of Scouting is that it's not very fun, but at least it's also not very tedious. I left UO last year because leveling my character got so boring that I would browse the net on my roommates computer during long battles. It's nice that Scouting is easy to master, but since we're paying $15 a month, shouldn't it also be fun?

I guess the real reason I don't care that much is because I was never interested in Scouting.. I just wanted Bounty Hunter. I kind of assumed that the only reason anyone would take Scout, or Scouting abilities, would be to get a different class that had the pre-req's. Overall, even the most boring aspects of Scouting don't bother me, because I'm having so much fun doing other stuff. I can't wait to hit BH.

-vune

Hi Brisc --

So based on what you know how about an opinion on whether or not the changes anticipated will make the class more fun?

Also, I don't know that the CL changes will make much of a difference -- you can already find pretty much complete lists of the mobs and their CLs over on the CH boards. Also, I don't think I would decide whether or not to fight something based on its /con anyway -- it has never been a reliable indicator.

rs1990 --

I feel for you rangers. I had ranger skills for a little while but gave them up. Capabilities are the things I like to have most in MMO's and rangers didn't have those when I played them.

Is tracking not as much fun as it sounds?

Regards,

Oirff

Tracking is OK. The problem is that it only tells us what is already out there...so, I could also just run around in a cirlce for 5 minutes and get the same info. Now, if they ever make the change for us to track spawn points or make things spawn then it will be an awesome ability, but until then it is jsut a nice little Ranger gimmick.

I only agree to a limited extent that we have been marginalized. True, there are ways to get around some of our abilities, but I have always found them useful, especially the passive ones. Ones that you don't really notice until you no longer have them.

We can also boast, unlike most professions, that we have been functional and fun since the beginning.

Harvesting - I haven't harvested for cash in months. I harvest to either supply myself with materials for making crates of camps, to get meat for my PA's healers, or other resources for our crafters.

Creature Knowledge - I find it very convenient to be able to get this information. To the point that I will never surrender my ranger levels of Tracking III if I can help it. Yes, there are websites dedicated to collecting this (I contribute to one), but I dislike flipping back and forth when I can just hit examine and know right then and there.

Traps - I do neglect this area. I must say that having a few Phec. Darts lying around for emergancies has saved me on several occassions though. A revamp after combat balancing is done would be nice.

Camps - Despite my desire to never surrender master scout, and even with the fact that I am a master ranger, I want to see the calling restrictions lifted. They are highly annoying, especially to non-scouts and I have no desire to force people into our profession just to be able to call their mount or vehicle. Camps are already useful for their healing properties and at ranger levels the crafting stations for in-field supplies. (I would rather use a camp than call a droid, especially since that would make me have to reoganize my called pets.)

I know that calling pets without camps is probably our most 'contentious' issue. Just keep in mind that it is annoying to non-scouts due to bugs or logging out and it is irritating to creature handlers who already have the ability to make camps. No one benefits from keeping it the current way. Losing it won't marginalize us any more, either.

Terrain Negotiation - I still travel on foot on many occassions and am quite grateful for it when I do. It is still very useful in combat. I use slopes to my advantage all the time (or ignore them when I have to close).

Maskscent - Arguably one of my most important abilities as a creature handler and just for general travel. That is why is is F1 on my keyboard, first before specials and equipment.

A great way to make /examine more useful would be to assign creatures CL levels, rather than specific "scores". Thus, a creature may have a CLrating of 10-25, but you'd only know how strong any particular creature is by using /examine.

Just a thought.

Para,

That's a good question.

To be honest - there really isn't a bunch of stuff in the pipeline that is going to make scouting on its own more fun. It's fun now, and they aren't planning on fiddling with us very much. What I can say is that many of the bugs we've been complaining about are going to get some attention.

The fun stuff is what's going on with other professions and with combat. Lots of stuff is getting addressed, and there's a lot of fun stuff coming.

I'm working with Thunderheart to get our new ideas brought up, but I'm going to really need everyone's help once we get all of the responses the Devs have provided to our Top 5 and State of the Profession threads.

B

Yes, Scouts are being marginalized. They aren't broken and probably never will be, but they aren't nearly as good as they once were.

Oh, and you missed one. . . the POI tab. When I first started with Scout (Day 2) it was my job to run EVERYWHERE and find all the caves, forts, and interesting scenery I could. (It's called scouting, go figure.) Now, anyone can jump on a vehicle, follow the waypoint, and get where they need to go. Kinda sad, in my opinion.

Tam Darkfell (Intrepid) / Vendt Darkfell (TC)

I don't think Scouts have been Marginalized at all. I think they are what they are supposed to be, a starting profession to give us a taste of survival/outdoors skills.

1) Terrain Negotiation vs Vehicles - Terrain negotiation hasn't been marginalized by vehicles, why not? Because travelling long distances on foot should never ever ever be your primary form of transportation. Take a real world example. Do modern day hunters walk to their hunting lodge? No. They drive or even FLY to their camp/lodge and then walk to their tree stands or blinds. In that case real world terrain negotiation, the ability to move easily in rough terrain, is not marginalized by owning an SUV. TN is a luxury of being a scout. When you take a destroy mission that happens to be on the side of a hill (like that big cliff north of Keren/Theed before you get to the northern plains on Naboo) who do you think has an easier time completing it; Scouts or Non-Scouts? Scouts of course. We also have the advantage of being able to burst run uphill to get out of danger easier than non-scouts. Terrain Negotiation is a SECONDARY form of travel, not a primary mode of transportation.

2) Traps vs High Damage Weapons - Again we have not been marginalized. We are a starting profession and not an elite class. Our traps are only useful for Marksman Level MOBs. If anything the Ranger traps need to be beefed up, but not ours. Once you reach a level where you're a Bounty Hunter, Commando, Rifleman, Pistoleer, Carbineer the Scout traps really do become obsolete, but that is a GOOD design as far as I'm concerned. If a scout wants to be a high-level survivalist he/she needs to move up to Ranger to make his/her outdoors skills match their combat skills - IE: trapping.

3) Push by players to remove the need for camps to call pets/vehicles: Personally I hate having to pull a camp to call pets/droids/vehicles and I want that necessity removed as well. Taking this away does NOT marginalize us in a grouping situation. Why not? Think about it. What was the benefit of Scouts and camps BEFORE these rules were enacted? Only a few months ago you could pull pets anywhere. How on earth did we make a difference to groups?

-- We mattered because we provided a place to heal.

-- We mattered because we provided a place to get buffed.

-- We provided a place for entertainers to heal our mind wounds.

-- We were important because our camps "repel" creatures providing a safe place to gather and rest.

-- We set up tents that allow docs to cure disease/poison.

-- Our camps provided a convenient meeting place to gather before a group raid/hunt.

All these are still important points for Scouts. Making camps necessary for calling pets/vehicles in the wild is an artificial, contrived way of making scouting important when its not necessary in the light of the above list.

I think too many times we forget an important fact, that we are a starting profession and are sometimes too quick to jump to the conclusion that we are marginalized by other aspects of the game. The Scout profession is an important building block for other skills.

Terrain negotiation gives combat characters the ability to kite or even escape from PCs, NPCs and MOBs without the skill by running uphill.

Camping gives us the ability to heal ourselves and others without the need for a doctor/medic or a trip back to town for a med center while providing a safe location to rest.

Trapping (on the Scout level) gives low-level characters an advantage over non-scouts when taking destroy missions where the target is a critter. Traps also allow us to attack higher-level MOBs for more combat/weapons XP than someone who cannot use traps.

So no...we haven't been marginalized. The sky is not falling. Scouting is still a useful skill, if you think otherwise you may have to accept the idea that you may have outgrown the profession.

Well FUna, I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

TN v. Vehicles -- I'm not driving to my hunting lodge -- I'm driving to my target, dismounting and starting to shoot. There IS no rough terrain in SWG -- while it may look rugged there is no falling damage -- making it essentially flat. You can cross the roughest terrain in the game at full throttle on the most delicate vehicle available. And I'm not sure where you get the idea that non-scouts have a tougher time than scouts -- vehicles go plenty fast up hills. Do you dismount at the bottom of the hill, run to the top and then run back down to your vehicle? I don't and I suspect you don't either.

Traps -- I think your arguement presumes a class based system rather than a skill based one. Other professions you choose should not mean that skills in an unrelated profession become useless. There is no such thing as an "elite class" and this is not a balance question -- it's a fun question. Combat suffers from a lack of diverse, meaningful, actions you can take -- fixing traps would help this. I should need to make a choice between using that trap or using that gun -- right now there's no real choice involved. BTW, have you tried the ranger traps? There's nothing elite (or even particularly useful) about them.

Camps -- I'm not a big fan of camps as a place to call stuff out. But on the other hand I don't see these advantages you talk about. Camps are a good place to get your secondary stats healed while you're afk -- otherwise I don't use them for anything BUT calling out pets and vehicles. Heals and bufs come from droids more easily than from camps. I don't see a lot of entertainers out in the wilds healing mind wounds. I know camps are "supposed" to repel creatures, but in my experience this has never worked. Cure disease and poison are also medbot functions. And I don't know about your groups, but the only time I see groups using camps now days is when someone is trying to grind their survival skills -- otherwise people just move to the next spawn and heal on the way. Camps used to be a touch of civilization -- but with the spread of player cities they are now essentially obsolete on any world that allows building.

Starting profession -- In a skill based game the designers need to provide a reason for all professions to be fun, whether they have pre-requisite skills or not. If I choose to play a scout and add additional skills to it as skill points allow, that should be every bit as viable a choice as if I were to choose a second tier profession with a large number of pre-requisites.

I guess the only thing I agree with you is that the sky is not falling. Scouting is a very solid profession that was more entertaining than most, to start. On the other hand, I don't think that gives the designers carte-blanche to ignore providing entertaining new changes to this profession. I would like to see them evaluate how much content they've diluted from scouts and to add some additional stuff to make up for it.

Regards,

Oirff

Well stated, although I still haven't been convinced of your central premise.

Oirff