Scout Archive

DeltaXi65:

Warping while prone has long been a bane of Riflemen. You run up to a critter, you go prone to improve your accuracy...and then you teleport back to where you were 5 seconds previously (and, in the case of Riflemen, almost always back out of range).

This has long been a known bug, and it affects mainly Riflemen, since we're the ones most likely to go prone in combat.

In comparing notes, we seem to have isolated the only common factor that all people who have this problem suffer from: Master Scout and Novice Ranger.

If you have a spare couple of minutes, could you take a look at the following thread?

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=rifleman&message.id=19914

At first it's just a bunch of us Rifle types bitching about the bug. As the thread progresses, it becomes clear that there's SOMETHING involving either Master Scout or Novice Ranger (Probably something to do with Terrain Negotiation) that causes this bug.

If you could bring this up to the Devs in the Correspondents forum, perhaps we can finally make some progress in getting this fixed. (We Rifle types would do it, but we don't have a correspondent at the moment.)

Thanks.

Nah - that happened to me all the time before I hit master scout. I thought it equated to the same weird thing that warps us out of chairs in cantinas, camps, etc.

Volsted.

Fear not - both myself, Aldeon (the old rifleman correspondent) and a large and diverse group of the other correspondents have been bringing this up nearly constantly with the Devs.

I appears to be a larger issue, and that's why it's taking so long to get addressed.

I'll keep you guys updated as I get more information.

B

Volsted, you may be on to something. This happens to me every single time I go prone. Prone is best for carbines also.

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DeltaXi65 wrote:
Fear not - both myself, Aldeon (the old rifleman correspondent) and a large and diverse group of the other correspondents have been bringing this up nearly constantly with the Devs.

I appears to be a larger issue, and that's why it's taking so long to get addressed.

I'll keep you guys updated as I get more information.

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Thanks, chief. Didn't realize it was already a known issue, or I wouldn't have bugged you with it. Glad to know you guys are on it already.

actually, though the warping issue affects ALL players, there IS a rifle/ranger specific problem:

when you /takecover (and I believe specifically when a ranger with rifle conceal1 does this), and stand up... your run is slowed to a walk, and walk barely moves. should you die in the /takecover position (which happens often, since you go prone, /takecover, shoot at mob, mob warps to you and does 2.5x melee dmg to you... DEAD), you become COMPLETELY unable to move once you reappear in the cloning center

Sorry but I don't think its Rifle/Scout/Ranger/Posture specific at all. Its server application latency pure and simple and has nothing to do with network lag or professions.

I'm not a Master Scout (yet) and I'm working on Pistoleer. My character hasn't picked up a Rifle since Day 2 of playing SWG.

I've been warped while standing, kneeling, prone and SITTING in and out of combat.

I've warped backwards hundreds of meters while burst-running away from an aggro MOB.

I've warped using a pistol and carbine.

I've warped while sampling resources (warped right off an 80% concentration into a 60% concentration).

I've even warped while sitting in a camp healing (and had my camp become "abandoned" and dissappear losing 350 Survival XP). This has only happened once.
I've been seeing this problem since day 1.

Its a much bigger problem as Brisc said.

Have you ever noticed how you can sit down on your camp chair then 5 minutes later you're sitting over your campfire? Have you ever been sitting on a bed in the medical center then a few minutes later your sitting on nothing but air a few meters away? Have you ever been standing in the cantina watching that cute blue Twi'lek in the gold fleshwrap then suddenly you're warped "too far away to watch..."? I bet its caused by the same "bug".

In my opinion as a software developer, it looks like a disagreement between the client and server concerning a PC's physical position in the game. Maybe the packets are being lost between the two or aren't given the correct priority (as some have theorized). Maybe its server lag caused by there being too much data to process. I've heard a rumor that SOE is using Win2K/XP servers which would explain a lot if true and would go far to explain the database problems, warping MOBs, PC warping, daily reboots, and massive server-wide lag caused by large PVP battles.

Many of the "issues" we see in the game can be traced back to inadequate hardware/software to process the amount of data the players generate. It really looks like someone didn't do their homework when estimating server load and storage and, if true, explains why we are subjected to bugs like this.

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TheFUna wrote:
Sorry but I don't think its Rifle/Scout/Ranger/Posture specific at all. Its server application latency pure and simple and has nothing to do with network lag or professions.

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What you're describing isn't the warping we're talking about.

I've been a Rifleman for a long time. I've had Explore 4 for a long time. My common tactic was to target something, run full speed up to 60-64m away, and immediately go prone and fire.

This was my tactic for over 2 months.

Starting a week or so ago, that tactic became completely unusable for me. If I target something and run up to it and go prone at 60-64m, I will immediately teleport backwards to whatever my position was 5 seconds or so previously. If I stand up and run back to 60-64m and go prone again, it will happen again. It will continue to happen 100% of the time, unless I run up to 60-64m out and stand still (or kneel or sit down) for 5 seconds or so.

Before a week or so, this type of warping never happened to me. Now it happens 100% of the time unless I take steps to prevent it.

The only thing that changed in that time was going from 2/1/2/1 Rifleman to 2/2/2/2 Rifleman, and going from 4/3/4/4 Scout to Novice Ranger.

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VolstedGridban wrote:
What you're describing isn't the warping we're talking about.

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Again...speaking as a Software Designer...it sounds like its one part of the same problem.

Server latency.

The fact you go prone somehow brings about the warping possibly thru a change of posture update message. The client-server communication would be like this:

Client: Player is running 12degrees north at running speed: position 3288,1201

Server: Acknowledged

Client: Player is running 12degrees north at running speed: position 3320, 1190

Server: (No response - packet lost or not processed yet)

Client: Player goes prone facing 14degrees north: position 3332, 1191. Fires on target fleshEatingChuba124592 using equipped laserCarbine596032:actionShot1

Server: HEY WHOA! I thought he was running! Move position back 30 meters 180degrees from current facing.

The change of position probably is the trigger that causes the server to activate a routine to deal with lost or unanticipated packets. The problem is the lost/unanticipated packets that are either getting lost online or just aren't being processed fast enough. Another instance is that two packets are processed and, according to the server, your character couldn't have moved the distance the client claims to have moved. Under normal running situations the server may be more lenient, but when you change posture the server re-calculates your position and sends it to the client, and in high-latency situations you get warping.

Of course this is a theory but here's the part of your statement that lends itself as strong evidence its very close to reality:

"I will immediately teleport backwards to whatever my position was 5 seconds or so previously."

That delay then change of position is a sure-fire sign of latency. The causes could be:

1) Hardware cannot keep up with data processed (my personal #1 pick for the cause based on the other problems we see like high server-wide lag for all clients when a large PvP battle occurs: known and acknowledged problem by the dev team)

2) Slow client internet connection or one with a high packet loss.

3) Server-side network connection not able to cope with amount of incoming data.

4) Cumulative time-loss (my personal #2 pick for cause). Everyone has lag, even with a 20ms ping thats still a 20ms difference between what your client says vs what's on the server. As a programmer you can do things to compensate, but you can still get out of sync. Over time those 20ms differences can add up to a full second...or 2 seconds...or 10 seconds and in that situation the server has to recalculate and you warp.

So really we are talking about the same problem, yours is just one symptom of it: going prone is a "trigger" that causes you to warp. When you look at the game/server performance as a whole with all the problems it all fits together in a big picture. With all the warping that goes on from MOBs to stationary characters sitting in the med center it all boils down to server latency.

You can try to say rifleman have an individual problem...but its just not true. Its a bigger problem, you guys just may have a special way of triggering it.

I agree on the difference between the sliding in camps/medcenter and the pronebug.

I am fairly certain the bug in camps/medcenter have something to do with the woundhealdelta, cause I slide each time the camp heals a tick.

The pronebug I have had since I became ranger, I also used the same tactic as you volsted, running into range and going prone at 60ish meters. Now I have to stop/kneel first. You see the screen adjusting ever so slightly(lag, syncproblem, server cathing up whatever) then you can go prone safely.

It is a big hindrance in groups were things moves fast, and it slows down solo play to a certian degree. Problem is, since a couple of patches ago the corpses decay alot faster. So where I before could clear everything around a nest, then go harvest, I must now harvest after each kill to bes ure to get it before it rots...

Sidetracked a bit on the end there, but what da hey

-Lorda Blothgar Master Ranger/Rifleman(4-3-4-3)

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VolstedGridban wrote:
Clearly, the warp bug occurs because the server thinks I should be at Point A when my client thinks I should be at Point B. But there are a lot of ways to explain that that don't involve server or network latency.

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If the server and client don't agree...then there is a definate communications problem. IE latency.

Go ahead. Argue with me.

Explain those "lots of ways" for me. I'm interested in hearing them.

I honestly believe there is a bottleneck somewhere because ::gasp:: everyone experiences warping in some way.

Listen and understand what I'm about to say...get past that spot in your brain that keeps your mind closed to others' ideas when they just might know a bit more about these things than you realize.

Warping is a global problem that affects everyone in some way from warping MOBs to self-warping in combat to med-center warping and no matter what patterns you find, in the end, it will be seen that its all part of a larger problem, not isolated to Rifleman, Scouts, Rangers or any particular skillset. The fact that there is percieved pattern may mean that something YOU do, such as going prone, triggers a client-server check to test your position but the inherent problem is that warping occurs to everyone in some way due to a client-server disagreement on position. Logically burst-running and terrain negotiation will exaserbate the problem by creating "abnormal" behavior. Coming to a complete stop and going prone after running causing a warp 5 seconds later indicates a DEFINATE client-server mismatch and a DEFINATE re-calculation. Get this part: ALL OTHER WARPING ISSUES INDICATE EXACTLY THE SAME CONDITION -- it just happens more frequently and consistently in certain situations.

Its a logical no-brainer for anyone with any live client-server programming experience. A latency situation, whether it is network, hardware, or software, is causing across-the-board, client-server position discrepencies in various PREDICTABLE situations (running, dropping to prone...sitting at the med center or in a chair in camp).

Its all one big problem not isolated to any particular profession or skillset. The sooner you see that, the sooner your information can become of help to the devs.

Sorry to burst your bubble but using a pistol I have the same issue you do when dropping to prone. It ain't just riflemen/rangers/scouts. I've been seeing this problem since day 1.

Like I said before, the symptoms we've all seen and felt is evidence of a game-wide problem in the client-server communication where player AND NPC position checks aren't matching up.

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TheFUna wrote:
If the server and client don't agree...then there is a definate communications problem.

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If a bug in the server code suddenly makes the server decide that you're 50m away from where you really are, and then passes that information on to the client, that's a bug, not a communications problem.

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TheFUna wrote:
Explain those "lots of ways" for me. I'm interested in hearing them.

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Bugged anti-exploit code, designed to check to see if people are moving faster than the server expects them to move. EQ had it, and SOE makes both games. Something about running and then going prone might make the server think you just crawled that distance at normal running speed, prompting it to kick you back to an earlier recorded position.

Bugged predictive movement algorithims, which look at how fast you're running and in what direction, and then predicts where you will be in $TIMEFRAME. That way it has to poll your client less often for positional updates, saving both client and server bandwidth. EQ also had this, which is why you'd occasionally see "ghosts" when you were following someone. They'd turn slightly in one direction at just the right time, and the predictive movement algorithims would keep them running in a big circle -- right up until they disappeared and reappeared in front of you, moving straight. And if EQ had it, it's a safe bet that SWG does as well, since it's a very logical bandwidth conservation step.

Bugged movement code in general. Terrain Negotiation improves crawl speed. Riflemen get an innate boost to crawl speed. The code may be broken when these two things stack. Or it may just be broken once your innate crawl speed reaches a certain value.

Other, less immediately obvious bugs that don't suggest themselves from a casual inspection of the commonalities among the folks who have this problem.

Again, if a bug in the code makes the server suddenly and without warning decide that your position is 25m south of where your position has been up til that point, and you warp 25m south to the spot where the server now thinks you should be at, that's not a communication issue. It's not latency. It's a bug.

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TheFUna wrote:
Listen and understand what I'm about to say...get past that spot in your brain that keeps your mind closed to others' ideas when they just might know a bit more about these things than you realize.

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Pot, meet kettle.

I have heard your arguments. I disagree with them because (A) I have experienced both types of warping, and understand the differences in their behavor; (B) I've worked at an ISP for 7+ years and have more than a passing familiarity with TCP/IP and UDP packet transmission; and (C) I have considerable experience playing MMORPGs under conditions of low- and high-latency. I know what happens in a game when packets are lost, and I know what happens in a game when packets are delayed. More specificlly, I know what happens in THIS game when packets are lost or delayed, because I've played THIS game in conditions of high latency and/or packet loss. None of those things are happening in the case of the prone warp bug.

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TheFUna wrote:
Warping is a global problem that affects everyone in some way from warping MOBs to self-warping in combat to med-center warping and no matter what patterns you find, in the end, it will be seen that its all part of a larger problem, not isolated to Rifleman, Scouts, Rangers or any particular skillset.

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MOB warping was created by the Devs to deal with the exploit of players deliberately positioning themselves in such a way that the MOB they wanted to fight would run towards them and become trapped by houses, harvesters, and other collideable terrain objects, so that the players could kill the critter in 100% safety. The solution implemented by the Devs was to give MOBs the ability to warp past collideable terrain objects so that players couldn't exploit these terrain objects. Unfortunately, one of the unintended consequences of this code is the fact that many MOBs will warp in situations where they're NOT trapped by the terrain, and where they could not reasonably BECOME trapped by the terrain. The anti-exploit code is triggered even when no possibility of an exploit exists. And *poof*, there the MOB is, when one second ago it was 65m away.

According to the AI Dev, he has made some changes in the code for the next Big Patch(tm) which should drastically reduce the incidence of MOB warping.

Just in case the above doesn't make it crystal clear: The MOB warping bug has nothing whatsoever to do with latency, or with any sort of client/server communication issues, despite your assertions to the contrary.

And if your opinion on THIS particular warping issue is based on such a flawed understanding of how the game actually works, why should we expect any of your other opinions on the other warping issues to be any different?

Perhaps you might try getting past that spot in your brain that keeps your mind closed to others' ideas when they just might know a bit more about these things than you realize.

I've been told it's a useful thing to do.

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TheFUna wrote:
Again...speaking as a Software Designer...it sounds like its one part of the same problem.

Server latency.

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Speaking as a Senior Manager for the technical side of an Internet Service Provider -- and speaking as someone with a lot of MMORPG experience -- I know what latency looks like in an MMORPG. And this ain't it.

Speaking as someone who's experienced both types of warp bugs, the symptoms are entirely different.

The "Med Center Slide Bug" is unpredictable. Sometimes you sit down and you won't warp for a while (if you warp at all). Other times you'll sit down and warp all over the place. It varies. There's no way to predict it.

The Prone Warp Bug is 100% predictable. It happens every time certain circumstances are met.

If it were systemic latency on the server side, everybody would experience it. If it's on the server side, then the size of YOUR pipe to the Internet doesn't matter -- the clog is at the server end, and affects gameplay even before it hits your bandwidth. But everybody doesn't experience it. Only certain people experience it. Therefore it's not latency at the server end.

If it were network latency between my client and the game servers, the effects of the bug would be a lot more randomly distributed among all types of players. But it's not. It's clustered almost exclusively around people who've trained Novice Ranger.

Additionally, if it were latency on either end, it would affect all travel, not just running and going prone. It doesn't affect running and then dropping to a sit. It doesn't affect running and dropping to a kneel. It only affects running and then going prone. Given that "standing up" and "going prone" are the only two posture states to allow forward motion (run/crawl), this is very likely NOT a coincidence.

Clearly, the warp bug occurs because the server thinks I should be at Point A when my client thinks I should be at Point B. But there are a lot of ways to explain that that don't involve server or network latency.