Scout Archive
Thread: Suggested Scout revamp for CU
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KundoJet
Tue Apr 12, 2005 8:37 am
#1
This is coming out of an extended discussion on the Ranger forum around the SP cost of Ranger (two masters, but no combat mods), but I thought I'd bounce it off Scouts as well, since my proposal really focuses around changes to the Scout profession.
I agree you can't seperate Ranger and Scout when talking about revamp. It is unreasonable at present for Master Ranger to cost more than an elite combat master, since the ranger mastery on its on does not let you engage in the elements of the game (hunting, travel in dangerous places)needed to generate experience. A combat profession is required. The solution is not to reduce the SP cost of Ranger skills, for the points Owen (Ranger Corr.) has raised. The solution should be to focus the change on Scout...
If Ranger is wilderness-focused abilities, then turn Scout more into Reconnaisance, with some wilderness flavour. Start by moving Exploration skills and mods into the Wilderness Survival tree. Terrain negotiation andmask scent are survival skills, after all. Move trapping into the hunting tree - trapping is just another means of hunting, and anyone who learns to hunt would learn the basics of trapping too. These two trees (Hunting, Wilderness Survival) become the prereqs for Ranger - same SP cost as other Elites, but no loss of skills.
Then you have two trees to fill with skills for Scout - these should be Reconaissance skills that would support a combat prof, and would be more relevent to hunting humanoids. The trees would include skills/mods like surprise, terrain mods (improved los, a bonus to hit or damage when holding the high ground, etc.), group accuracy (the title "Forward Observer" springs to mind), and that sort of thing. The recce (in the US, "recon") tree would be the prereq for Squad Leader, instead of Wilderness Survival, giving scouts more (and more useful) abiltiies in two distinct areas - wilderness and creature skills (two trees), and group combat and movement skills (two trees).
I would add some general combat mods to the Ranger prof, simply because it's ludicrous to suggest it is not a combat profession when so much of it involves dealing damage to opponents. I think this would work for Rangers, keeping their skill level but freeing up the necessary SPs to improve their combat effectiveness to a reasonable level (not exceeding or even equalling an elite combat profession, but being able to hold their own well enough).
This would also make Scouts more valuable, and more distinctive, because you'd have some scouts who were more on the Grizzly Adams/junior Ranger types, and some who were on the SL track (imagine "Pathfinders" who give group terrain navigation that only works if the other players have the scout on /follow). In fact, if you designed it right, the SL prereqs could both come from Scout, since as it stands SL is cheap for ranged professions, and expensive for melee professions.
Just blue-skying the mechanics, but the more I think about this the more I convince myself it's a workable and useful change that improves Scout, Ranger and SL without being unbalancing.
Any thoughts?
JBMat
Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:45 am
#2
By and large, no basic professions were tinkered with for the CU. It was the advanced professions that got changed.
Taking this into account, leave Scout alone, it is a basic profession that isn't broken. Fact is, it works better than Ranger in many ways - traps, TN, and bonuses.
Instead change Ranger to incorporate what you said, and like Image Designer, drop the number of points needed to master Ranger by making the boxes less expensive in skill points.
Yes, Rangers are the most expensive profession post-CU. Yes, there are no inherent pure combat roles built in. Ranger is creature centric remember, and a lot of us think it should stay that way. Give the Rangers some points to build up their health and all will be right with the world. Don't, and you can kiss 90% of the Rangers and probably 80% of the Master Scouts goodbye. It simply will not be worth it to have these professions and try and survive in the game.
I like your ideas, but they should be at the Ranger, not the Scout, level.
JB
KundoJet
Tue Apr 12, 2005 10:33 am
#3
Thanks for your feedback. These changes would be proposed as part of the profession revamp slated to follow the CU (there's no way any of this stuff would be completed in time for a CU release), and there's every likelihood there will be at least some basic profession changes on the way as part of that activity. So let's be open to the possibility...
JBMat wrote:
By and large, no basic professions were tinkered with for the CU. It was the advanced professions that got changed.
Taking this into account, leave Scout alone, it is a basic profession that isn't broken. Fact is, it works better than Ranger in many ways - traps, TN, and bonuses.
Instead change Ranger to incorporate what you said, and like Image Designer, drop the number of points needed to master Ranger by making the boxes less expensive in skill points.
Yes, Rangers are the most expensive profession post-CU. Yes, there are no inherent pure combat roles built in. Ranger is creature centric remember, and a lot of us think it should stay that way. Give the Rangers some points to build up their health and all will be right with the world. Don't, and you can kiss 90% of the Rangers and probably 80% of the Master Scouts goodbye. It simply will not be worth it to have these professions and try and survive in the game.
I like your ideas, but they should be at the Ranger, not the Scout, level.
JB
I understand your reluctance to see changes to Scout, which in isolation works fine. Who uses it in isolation though? Have you ever seen a Master Scout who was not working on Ranger? I haven't. In my experience (which may be limited, so I'm open to correction on this point), three kinds of people take Scout: thosefor whom it's a prerequisitefor their CH/BE/SL Novice, those who want the mobility of Terrain Negotiation, and Rangers. (You might get a few combat-types who want some hunting to get better harvests, but a) they can get better results from droids, and b) they probably fall into the Terrain Negotiation group and just had a couple of points left over).
Just as the elite Ranger prof may benefit from some changes made to make it more versatile than just creature-based, so can Scout.(Not to be too literal, Army Rangers in the US use their fieldcraft skills to hunt people, it stands to reason an SWG Ranger should be able to as well, without stepping on the abilties of Bounty Hunters or Squad Leaders). In a model like this (and I'll be the first to admit I've offered little detail around how the news trees might work), a Master Squad Leader would be someone who is effective (but not elite) in the field, and is useful in gathering information to gain tactical advantage... sort of a combination of a reconaissance role and point-man/pathfinder role in the contemporary military.
Those scouts who want to focus solely on the wilderness aspects of the profession could do so in two trees; those who want more of the military/NPC/PVP elements could do so in their two trees. Those who wanted to do both would have a lot of versatility.
I don't know if you're following the debate on the Ranger forum, but the argument for NOT simply reducing the SP cost of Ranger skills is that it has the effect of diminishing the apparent value of the profession. Ask Image Designers how they feel about their profession ahving its SP requirement devalued - the overall response is that they're not happy, since it makes them feel like a "lesser" profession. Rangers are justifiably concerned that if their profession's skills had a lower SP cost, there would be less recognition of the profession, and their requests for changes to the nature of thse skills would have less credibility.
Squad Leaders also have a problem currently, in that they are forced to take ranged weapons (and effectively pistol) as part of their skills, when the weapon they use should have nothing to do with their ability to command. This proposal resolves that dilemma, letting them use whatever weapon they want (I'd remove weapon certs from SL entirely, myself, and give them low-level general ranged and melee accuracy, speed and def mods).
Hopefully it also makes it more interesting, varied, and fun to be a scout...
Anyway, keep the feedback coming!
Hakai
Sun Apr 24, 2005 10:30 am
#4
KundoJet wrote:
(there's no way any of this stuff would be completed in time for a CU release),
And there is still no way the CU is going to be completed in time for the CU release either when you think about it..
StabMastah
Sun Apr 24, 2005 11:30 am
#5
" Taking this into account, leave Scout alone, it is a basic profession that isn't broken. Fact is, it works better than Ranger in many ways - traps, TN, and bonuses. "
I don't get this thinking. Infact.. im pretty pissed off. I just tried my current template on the Test center, and its worthless. How can you NOT increase the ammount of creature harvests ?
Sorry, let me explain. I have the full harvesting line from scout. I have a 120+ harvesting droid and I eat Veghash. I provide hide for armorsmiths on a scout for hire basis. Im a Master TK and Master fencer also.
CU armor is going to take a LOT more hide then before. Specific named hide too. How in the hell am I going to do my job and provide Hide for my customers if I can't even fight more then 2 Durni's at once ??
And yes, its that bad. Its just almost impossible with 2 master combat profs, to engage a mob big enough to net good ammounts of hide. The cost of hide is going to hit 100 - 200 CPU atleast. Even for that exorbinant price, its not worth it to put up with the pain its going to be killing and harvesting. And Im not going to be forced to gouge my long time customers.. It does not feel right charging that much.. but what can you do ?
If scout is staying the same.. sadly.. im going to have to drop it. To sit here and claim scout will be fine, just because its a basic prof, is BS !! Scout's depend on being able to KILL things in order to harvest them. Who in the hell uses traps and sets up camps anyway ??
I don't get this thinking. Infact.. im pretty pissed off. I just tried my current template on the Test center, and its worthless. How can you NOT increase the ammount of creature harvests ?
Sorry, let me explain. I have the full harvesting line from scout. I have a 120+ harvesting droid and I eat Veghash. I provide hide for armorsmiths on a scout for hire basis. Im a Master TK and Master fencer also.
CU armor is going to take a LOT more hide then before. Specific named hide too. How in the hell am I going to do my job and provide Hide for my customers if I can't even fight more then 2 Durni's at once ??
And yes, its that bad. Its just almost impossible with 2 master combat profs, to engage a mob big enough to net good ammounts of hide. The cost of hide is going to hit 100 - 200 CPU atleast. Even for that exorbinant price, its not worth it to put up with the pain its going to be killing and harvesting. And Im not going to be forced to gouge my long time customers.. It does not feel right charging that much.. but what can you do ?
If scout is staying the same.. sadly.. im going to have to drop it. To sit here and claim scout will be fine, just because its a basic prof, is BS !! Scout's depend on being able to KILL things in order to harvest them. Who in the hell uses traps and sets up camps anyway ??
JBMat
Sun Apr 24, 2005 5:51 pm
#6
Scout is fine.
Last I looked, it was not borked, it was the combat professions. If you can't take on more than two durnis, either you are not fighting smart or you are soloing things above your skill level.Re-think and adapt.
Let hides hit 100-200 cpu, I am not gonna say boo, I will just make more money.
And I am fighting big things with only one combat master and Master Ranger and winning.
JB
StabMastah
Sun Apr 24, 2005 8:31 pm
#7
" Scout is fine. "
You know, in every proffession forum there is a guy working for SOE telling us everything " is fine ". Well its not.
You know, in every proffession forum there is a guy working for SOE telling us everything " is fine ". Well its not.
JBMat
Mon Apr 25, 2005 4:36 am
#8
If you think I am sitting here as SOE's lil lapdog, you best back up, take a deep breath and rethink before someone buries a size 11 1/2 jungle boot where the sun don't shine.
Just because you are all gacked up and can't figure out how to hunt does not mean the profession is broken. As I type - some things are getting better. Some things are broken and the fight is on to fix them.
Methinks you would best be served in another profession, one that does not require cogent arguments to back up statements, and one that allows whining and sniveling as major means for change. Try BH.
JB
and for the record, I won't work for a computer company again. The one I did work for was not SOE
Fytos
Mon Apr 25, 2005 1:22 pm
#9
JBMat wrote:
If you think I am sitting here as SOE's lil lapdog, you best back up, take a deep breath and rethink before someone buries a size 11 1/2 jungle boot where the sun don't shine.
Just because you are all gacked up and can't figure out how to hunt does not mean the profession is broken. As I type - some things are getting better. Some things are broken and the fight is on to fix them.
Methinks you would best be served in another profession, one that does not require cogent arguments to back up statements, and one that allows whining and sniveling as major means for change. Try BH.
JB
and for the record, I won't work for a computer company again. The one I did work for was not SOE
Acctualy... a BH is also a scout
StabMastah
Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:17 pm
#10
lol
/engage e-peen
Oh yeah !! ?? Keep it up and your gonna get a one way ticket to the Bacta tank punk !!
/engage e-peen
Oh yeah !! ?? Keep it up and your gonna get a one way ticket to the Bacta tank punk !!
Tanks
Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:02 am
#11
JBMat wrote:
If you think I am sitting here as SOE's lil lapdog, you best back up, take a deep breath and rethink before someone buries a size 11 1/2 jungle boot where the sun don't shine.
...
Methinks you would best be served in another profession, one that does not require cogent arguments to back up statements, and one that allows whining and sniveling as major means for change. Try BH.
Excuse me?
/looks around for a size 12 1/2 jungle boot
/target JBMat
/throw
Hakai
Thu Apr 28, 2005 10:41 am
#12
Tanks wrote:
Excuse me?
/looks around for a size 12 1/2 jungle boot
/target JBMat
/throw
Think you got it wrong it should be....
*looks around for size 12 1/2 combat boot*
*puts boot on right foot and laces up*
*hauls back leg and .........*
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