Scout Archive
Thread: Feedback on the scout correspondent issues
sbjnyc
Tue Aug 19, 2003 10:44 am
#66
There are explorer destroy missions (e.g., kill 45 mutant womp rats). Scouts and especially rangers need to have a skill that enables us to find these creatures since there is no waypoint. That's tracking. Without it these missions can take a LONG time to finish.
DeltaXi65
Tue Aug 19, 2003 10:49 am
#67
Ase,
This was the reason why its taken so long to get a resolution to this issue. The decrease in the caps for the camps will result in more camps being used, and thus, more hide and bone going out of circulation.
I am confident that the devs will track the amount of hide and bone on the servers and if it gets out of hand, other measures will be implemented to fix it.
B
T1nman33
Tue Aug 19, 2003 10:59 am
#68
1. Maskscent. - General
Sounds good. I would like to see this working better, especially since the world seems to have gotten much more dangerous since the patch. I have not been seeing the "you earned X amount of XP" through using maskscent since the patch. I would recommend messages like this for ALL occasions when you earn XP--this is not directly related to scout, but I woulc like to see messages for CXP for artisans as well.
2. Camping XP. - Camp and trap crafting now rewards Wilderness Survival xp; Fishing now grants Wilderness Survival xp.
Extremely good idea. These are activities that are necessary and/or related to wilderness survival in general, so I think they very much ought to be rewarded.
4. Foraging and Fishing.
Simple solution: first, add wilderness survival XP for foraging (if it isn't there already; I'm not sure offhand). Second, add some new crafting recipes, or, better yet, optional subcomponents of existing schematics which call for things only Scouts can forage or otherwise obtain. These additional items could increase the value of the crafted items substantially, and also provide an additional money-making avenue for the scout.
5. Incentives for Exploring.
I was a proponent as far back as beta for having some kind of additional experience granted for walking somewhere rather than taking the shuttle--this would be similar to the "odometer" that was pretty much just ruled out. How about this: would it be possible to reward players for getting within X meters of a POI? These would be random spawn POIs as well as the static (and often non-interactive) POIs which are on various planets. I'd like to see "You have discovered an ancient stone hut and get 500 points of Exploration experience", or "You have discovered an Imperial fort and get 200 points of Exploration experience."
I admit, you would have to add database fields to determine whether or not a player had hit some static POIs, but this could become a fun mini-game in and of itself. Can you find all the tourist spots on Tatooine...every crashed escape pod, settlement, cave, oasis, and the like? Give a set amount of points each time somebody finds one of these; it would encourage people to go out and try to find cool unmarked stuff, of which there is quite a bit.
And, yes, you could add some kind of exploration missions where you had to find a slaver camp, or a Rebel base, or something. Give high rewards, since you'd likely have to do a lot of walking before you found a specific kind of POI.
Sounds good. I would like to see this working better, especially since the world seems to have gotten much more dangerous since the patch. I have not been seeing the "you earned X amount of XP" through using maskscent since the patch. I would recommend messages like this for ALL occasions when you earn XP--this is not directly related to scout, but I woulc like to see messages for CXP for artisans as well.
2. Camping XP. - Camp and trap crafting now rewards Wilderness Survival xp; Fishing now grants Wilderness Survival xp.
Extremely good idea. These are activities that are necessary and/or related to wilderness survival in general, so I think they very much ought to be rewarded.
4. Foraging and Fishing.
Simple solution: first, add wilderness survival XP for foraging (if it isn't there already; I'm not sure offhand). Second, add some new crafting recipes, or, better yet, optional subcomponents of existing schematics which call for things only Scouts can forage or otherwise obtain. These additional items could increase the value of the crafted items substantially, and also provide an additional money-making avenue for the scout.
5. Incentives for Exploring.
I was a proponent as far back as beta for having some kind of additional experience granted for walking somewhere rather than taking the shuttle--this would be similar to the "odometer" that was pretty much just ruled out. How about this: would it be possible to reward players for getting within X meters of a POI? These would be random spawn POIs as well as the static (and often non-interactive) POIs which are on various planets. I'd like to see "You have discovered an ancient stone hut and get 500 points of Exploration experience", or "You have discovered an Imperial fort and get 200 points of Exploration experience."
I admit, you would have to add database fields to determine whether or not a player had hit some static POIs, but this could become a fun mini-game in and of itself. Can you find all the tourist spots on Tatooine...every crashed escape pod, settlement, cave, oasis, and the like? Give a set amount of points each time somebody finds one of these; it would encourage people to go out and try to find cool unmarked stuff, of which there is quite a bit.
And, yes, you could add some kind of exploration missions where you had to find a slaver camp, or a Rebel base, or something. Give high rewards, since you'd likely have to do a lot of walking before you found a specific kind of POI.
PegLegPete
Tue Aug 19, 2003 11:33 am
#70
Okay, I've got a lot to cover here. I did read through all the previous posts in this thread so as not to repeat anything. I hope nobody posts anything major while I write this 
.
Machs seem to have the most thoughtful post, especially maintaining an unbiased perspective, with regard to the Dev's ability to follow through or if it balances out well (Asaliveth apparently just thinks anything is possible - binoculars with a camera..?). In fact, I'll start with Delta's (Scout Correspondent) response to Mach's post, since that's easier.
"There's really no need to be camping and fishing at the same time any more."
Delta, I think you missed the point of fishing. XP is wonderful, and Camp XP is no doubt the holy grail of XP, but you don't go fishing for XP. You may combat for XP, you may craft weapon powerups for XP, you may even dance for XP, however, when we (hopefully not just me) fish, we fish for the fish.
Which leads me to my biggest beef with fish (heh), that there is nothing to do with the fish. As has been pointed out, Chefs do not need fish. Even if Chef's needed fish, they are just as capable of getting them as we are, which is not only slightly unrealistic (usually doesn't matter), but also doesn't work well in terms of SWG's goal of interdependency. And the chum bait that comes out of fish is useless, you have a better chance of catching fish using your Jedi force powers.
So, what I'm trying to say (lengthily) is that fishing while camping is very useful, regardless of xp gain.
It seems people have also forgot the purpose of Mask Scent. It's an incredibly useful ability that all too many people take for granted. Only a couple of people on this board seem happy that you can now Mask Scent rather successfully, even against Rancors. I definitely consider that good news. Why do I need XP as an added bonus? I suppose the masses only do anything in SWG because you get XP, which Holocron has complained in an all-too-polite way several times, but come on. Isn't it enough to be able to consider yourself 99% safe just by typing /maskscent? Granted, you have to be skilled, but I would hope that would be acceptable. In terms of Ranger, I understand the Devs are working to make the camoflauge/conceal thing happen, so I can wait.
Okay, so let's see what else... Ah yes, Group Harvesting. I'm down, really, in any fashion. If multiple group members can harvest the same creature, I'm happy. That's a great idea that doesn't discourage grouping as the current system tends to do. I may disagree that you get 60% of the harvest. IMO, 60% is too high. A group of 5-10 could make a killing if that were the case. Let's do some simple math... Say a group of 5 people went on a hunting trip under current conditions (only 1 harvest). The entire group comes back with 1,000 hides split between all 8 people, so thats 125 for each person. This is ideal conditions by the way, witch each person getting an exact cut. That's exactly 12.5% of the total 1,000 hides.
With group harvesting, under the same rules, each person now gets 60% of the 1,000 hides. So that's 600 hides per person. That seems fine on a per-person basis, but if you look at the groups total, it suddenly goes from 1,000 hides to 600 * 8 = 4800 hides. 4,800 hides? That's a 380% increase in total hide output. That's for an 8-person group, which is above average for a group size. A two person group has a 20% increase, but every person after that has adds a 60% increase in the total group hides. Of course, you get 100% of the total hides by yourself, but you do not kill as many creatures as fast, or kill harder creatures as fast which give bigger harvests. If they were to implement this, they would either have to lower the percentage, or make it depend on how many people are in the group (60% for 2 people, drop 8% every addition person).
The narrow-minded people will be happy that they now have more hide, but this is going to flood the market and lower hide prices across the board. Not to mention that anybody can pick up Novice Scout for 15pts and 100creds, then they can harvest any creature while they group. It's good in theory, but needs some work.
Let me discuss Mach's scout/ranger packs. Scout inventory is certainly an issue, but I'm not sure if I agree with your fix. I was even thinking of the same kind of thing while I was reading the thread.
I'm not so sure about the professions, but Scouts/Rangers usually have about 8 different types of hide and bone each on them at all times. I don't even want to consider the added weight if you harvest meat as well. If you fish, fish take up 2 volume per unit! Most Scouts like to be self-sufficient so they usually have Stim packs. Throw in your tools, weapons, arsenal of traps and you have a hefty load for one individual. So a sort of system for either increasing the max. capacity a scout can carry, or reducing the volume of stuff that the average scout carries would be a welcome change. In the Devs perspective, it makes more sense to lower the average scout's load, because that lowers the (All Important) database load. Increasing the carrying capacity for a major profession would only stress the database even further. I suppose they could make more things stackable, but that might prove difficult. The best idea would be a kind of combination of the two fixes by creating scout packs that are dedicated just for organic resources, traps, camps, etc... I can see other professions complaining, but if they had to carry the load of a scout, then maybe they'd understand.
The problem is that scouts need to have all their hide/bone stacks on them whenever they go out hunting (assuming theu plan on harvesting which only makes sense). Artisans generally have to have a lot of resources on them as well, but they can store them in their house or Safety Deoposit when they aren't crafting. Harvesting is a huge thing for scouts, so it's pointless to not carry our stacks of resource with us, or else new stacks will be made and then we'll just double our stacks!
In terms of foraging, XP addition is alright, but I don't think necessary. This is another example of ignoring the intrinsic reward of the ability. Personally, I think they should drop the planned XP reward and just make foraging just a little more detailed, such as allowing you to forage for a particular category (food buff, bait...) or perhaps follow through with the unseen rare-items or multiple-finds-at-once ideas that don't appear to be implemented. If nothing else, I would like to see the "Foraged items were discarded because there is not enough room in your inventory" bug to be fixed. I think the ability to choose a type of thing to forage for is important when you are fishing and you have to go through 10 sets of Sosi or Foraged Bugs before finding some bait.
Okay, just a few more things then I'll shut up, I promise. If you're this far, I commend you I'll try to be more brief.
Tracking is definitely an ability I would like to see. It doesn't have to be a constant real-time thing, since that would be a huge serverload. It could work similar to resource surveying. There could be some sort of tool which you use to find creatures instead of resources. The more skilled you are, the more specific you could be with creature detection (Large Creature->Non-Aggro->Bovine(?)->Bageraset), possibly increase the tracking radius too.
If tracking was implemented, I would actually rather it be a Ranger ability instead of a Scout ability. Just drop the Camoflauge idea and replace it with tracking
That would give something Rangers could claim unique and still applicable to their style.
I think tracking in any fashion is necessary mostly because the new Explorer missions are far too difficult to complete. Finding more than 15 of even common creatures can take a while. Finding 45 of a high-level creature would literally take an entire day to complete, so I'm not sure why those missions are offered. I say this not because killing 45 high-level creatures is hard (which it is), but because finding 45 of them is near to impossible. It would be more economically sensible to run delivery missions or destroy missions in the time it would take to complete a 45-creature-Explorer mission.
Lastly, I think Steph3k had a very interesting idea in terms of Scouts creating maps. I think having a map is a very important tool that everybody should have access to immediately, so maybe scouts shouldn't make the most basic maps, but it's a good idea we could build on. Perhaps, as he said, scouts could somehow add more detail to maps, or add landmarks. I honestly am not sure how to improve on it, but there has got to be a way.
Alright, I hope this post was helpful and not repitive and irritating :/ And I almost forgot, Thanks for the update Holo, I am glad to see changes being made to scouts since most people think scouts are doing just fine.
.Machs seem to have the most thoughtful post, especially maintaining an unbiased perspective, with regard to the Dev's ability to follow through or if it balances out well (Asaliveth apparently just thinks anything is possible - binoculars with a camera..?). In fact, I'll start with Delta's (Scout Correspondent) response to Mach's post, since that's easier.
"There's really no need to be camping and fishing at the same time any more."
Delta, I think you missed the point of fishing. XP is wonderful, and Camp XP is no doubt the holy grail of XP, but you don't go fishing for XP. You may combat for XP, you may craft weapon powerups for XP, you may even dance for XP, however, when we (hopefully not just me) fish, we fish for the fish.
Which leads me to my biggest beef with fish (heh), that there is nothing to do with the fish. As has been pointed out, Chefs do not need fish. Even if Chef's needed fish, they are just as capable of getting them as we are, which is not only slightly unrealistic (usually doesn't matter), but also doesn't work well in terms of SWG's goal of interdependency. And the chum bait that comes out of fish is useless, you have a better chance of catching fish using your Jedi force powers.
So, what I'm trying to say (lengthily) is that fishing while camping is very useful, regardless of xp gain.
It seems people have also forgot the purpose of Mask Scent. It's an incredibly useful ability that all too many people take for granted. Only a couple of people on this board seem happy that you can now Mask Scent rather successfully, even against Rancors. I definitely consider that good news. Why do I need XP as an added bonus? I suppose the masses only do anything in SWG because you get XP, which Holocron has complained in an all-too-polite way several times, but come on. Isn't it enough to be able to consider yourself 99% safe just by typing /maskscent? Granted, you have to be skilled, but I would hope that would be acceptable. In terms of Ranger, I understand the Devs are working to make the camoflauge/conceal thing happen, so I can wait.
Okay, so let's see what else... Ah yes, Group Harvesting. I'm down, really, in any fashion. If multiple group members can harvest the same creature, I'm happy. That's a great idea that doesn't discourage grouping as the current system tends to do. I may disagree that you get 60% of the harvest. IMO, 60% is too high. A group of 5-10 could make a killing if that were the case. Let's do some simple math... Say a group of 5 people went on a hunting trip under current conditions (only 1 harvest). The entire group comes back with 1,000 hides split between all 8 people, so thats 125 for each person. This is ideal conditions by the way, witch each person getting an exact cut. That's exactly 12.5% of the total 1,000 hides.
With group harvesting, under the same rules, each person now gets 60% of the 1,000 hides. So that's 600 hides per person. That seems fine on a per-person basis, but if you look at the groups total, it suddenly goes from 1,000 hides to 600 * 8 = 4800 hides. 4,800 hides? That's a 380% increase in total hide output. That's for an 8-person group, which is above average for a group size. A two person group has a 20% increase, but every person after that has adds a 60% increase in the total group hides. Of course, you get 100% of the total hides by yourself, but you do not kill as many creatures as fast, or kill harder creatures as fast which give bigger harvests. If they were to implement this, they would either have to lower the percentage, or make it depend on how many people are in the group (60% for 2 people, drop 8% every addition person).
The narrow-minded people will be happy that they now have more hide, but this is going to flood the market and lower hide prices across the board. Not to mention that anybody can pick up Novice Scout for 15pts and 100creds, then they can harvest any creature while they group. It's good in theory, but needs some work.
Let me discuss Mach's scout/ranger packs. Scout inventory is certainly an issue, but I'm not sure if I agree with your fix. I was even thinking of the same kind of thing while I was reading the thread.
I'm not so sure about the professions, but Scouts/Rangers usually have about 8 different types of hide and bone each on them at all times. I don't even want to consider the added weight if you harvest meat as well. If you fish, fish take up 2 volume per unit! Most Scouts like to be self-sufficient so they usually have Stim packs. Throw in your tools, weapons, arsenal of traps and you have a hefty load for one individual. So a sort of system for either increasing the max. capacity a scout can carry, or reducing the volume of stuff that the average scout carries would be a welcome change. In the Devs perspective, it makes more sense to lower the average scout's load, because that lowers the (All Important) database load. Increasing the carrying capacity for a major profession would only stress the database even further. I suppose they could make more things stackable, but that might prove difficult. The best idea would be a kind of combination of the two fixes by creating scout packs that are dedicated just for organic resources, traps, camps, etc... I can see other professions complaining, but if they had to carry the load of a scout, then maybe they'd understand.
The problem is that scouts need to have all their hide/bone stacks on them whenever they go out hunting (assuming theu plan on harvesting which only makes sense). Artisans generally have to have a lot of resources on them as well, but they can store them in their house or Safety Deoposit when they aren't crafting. Harvesting is a huge thing for scouts, so it's pointless to not carry our stacks of resource with us, or else new stacks will be made and then we'll just double our stacks!
In terms of foraging, XP addition is alright, but I don't think necessary. This is another example of ignoring the intrinsic reward of the ability. Personally, I think they should drop the planned XP reward and just make foraging just a little more detailed, such as allowing you to forage for a particular category (food buff, bait...) or perhaps follow through with the unseen rare-items or multiple-finds-at-once ideas that don't appear to be implemented. If nothing else, I would like to see the "Foraged items were discarded because there is not enough room in your inventory" bug to be fixed. I think the ability to choose a type of thing to forage for is important when you are fishing and you have to go through 10 sets of Sosi or Foraged Bugs before finding some bait.
Okay, just a few more things then I'll shut up, I promise. If you're this far, I commend you
I'll try to be more brief.Tracking is definitely an ability I would like to see. It doesn't have to be a constant real-time thing, since that would be a huge serverload. It could work similar to resource surveying. There could be some sort of tool which you use to find creatures instead of resources. The more skilled you are, the more specific you could be with creature detection (Large Creature->Non-Aggro->Bovine(?)->Bageraset), possibly increase the tracking radius too.
If tracking was implemented, I would actually rather it be a Ranger ability instead of a Scout ability. Just drop the Camoflauge idea and replace it with tracking
That would give something Rangers could claim unique and still applicable to their style.I think tracking in any fashion is necessary mostly because the new Explorer missions are far too difficult to complete. Finding more than 15 of even common creatures can take a while. Finding 45 of a high-level creature would literally take an entire day to complete, so I'm not sure why those missions are offered. I say this not because killing 45 high-level creatures is hard (which it is), but because finding 45 of them is near to impossible. It would be more economically sensible to run delivery missions or destroy missions in the time it would take to complete a 45-creature-Explorer mission.
Lastly, I think Steph3k had a very interesting idea in terms of Scouts creating maps. I think having a map is a very important tool that everybody should have access to immediately, so maybe scouts shouldn't make the most basic maps, but it's a good idea we could build on. Perhaps, as he said, scouts could somehow add more detail to maps, or add landmarks. I honestly am not sure how to improve on it, but there has got to be a way.
Alright, I hope this post was helpful and not repitive and irritating :/ And I almost forgot, Thanks for the update Holo, I am glad to see changes being made to scouts since most people think scouts are doing just fine.
BaneShee
Tue Aug 19, 2003 11:36 am
#71
------------------- Holo Wrote ---------------------
- Each scout in a group that has loot permissions for a corpse may harvest from that corpse. Corpses harvested in this way yield 60% theirnormal resources and XP. Leaving the group and then harvesting still yields only 60%.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I'm Guessing that this means if you group with a pet that you only get 60% on harvests .... If so then thissounds like a set back .. I can group with my pet today and get 100% .... I guess you wont see pets in groups anymore once this goes live ....
PegLegPete
Tue Aug 19, 2003 11:44 am
#72
BaneShee, I think it is implied that pets don't count towards the group harvest percentage. That wouldn't even make sense because your pet has no chance of harvesting. I mean, they get hungry, but not that hungry.
BaneShee
Tue Aug 19, 2003 11:47 am
#73
Thinking logicaly you may be right but were talking about a very tired and overworked group of DEVs here and this is just the kind of issue that might well get over looked. Thats why I'm bringing it up 
...
PegLegPete
Tue Aug 19, 2003 11:54 am
#74
I'll agree with you, but we can't start complaining about bugs that we foresee being implemented!!!
Koedo
Tue Aug 19, 2003 12:03 pm
#75
Hey Holocron I may have an idea how about making it possible for gaining exp by the amount of meters we run. This would incourge exploration would it not? Just a thought
Xyntar
Tue Aug 19, 2003 12:34 pm
#76
Koedo wrote:
Hey Holocron I may have an idea how about making it possible for gaining exp by the amount of meters we run. This would incourge exploration would it not? Just a thought
That would be an odometer, which he said would be too difficult to implement. Not to mention really easy to exploit.
BaneShee
Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:03 pm
#77
PegLegPete wrote
------ I'll agree with you, but we can't start complaining about bugs that we foresee being implemented!!!
DeltaXi65
------ Thanks for the "responding to bugs we haven't seen" yet comment. Bravo.
Please get your head out of your fourth point of contact. This is not a matter of responding to bugs that haven't occurred yet. This is a way of helping the DEVS to make sure that this kind of bug doesn't happen, and you Delta should be bringing this type of thing to there attention instead of hiding potential problems for another correspondent to deal with. Now is the time to make sure this doesn't happen while they are coding these changes ... Wake up people and get a clue ....????
Carwin
Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:09 pm
#78
Don't forget that many people would like to make Scouting XP without having to kill for it! I'm surprised that wasn't in the top5 issues honestly.
It's silly that you have to kill dozens of creatures to become a creature handler.