Scout Archive
Thread: Email I just sent the Devs For your review
Its not the effect the 60% rule had on the economy it is the 60% and another 60% that is killing it. I think the devs were so worried about a glut oforganics on the bazaar that they forgot they just added a huge organic sink with it!
DeltaXi65 wrote:
Nerf,
I agree - I think all of us overestimated the effect the 60% rule was going to have on the economy.
As this was a change that would require deprogramming nearly three months worth of cultural conditioning in game, it wasn't something was going to happen overnight. I think the devs moved too quickly, and that's partially my fault- 1.) For not realizing this and telling them and 2.) For pushing the idea so hard.
Good Point!
I noticed better harvests today, but wasn't particularly paying attention. On Mountain Squills solo I got 66 hide. With a novice scout grouped we got 46 for me and 22 for him.
-- YP
1) This is good for dedicated harvesting groups
Unfortunately, that means anyone NOT in a dedicated harvesting group is 12 times less effective, and therefore unable to compete economically. It also means that other values will be modified in accordance with any surge in resources, making large harvesting groups the only viable way to get resources at all.
2) This is good for gaining scout xp fast
This should really not be the point. Scout XP is very easy to come by right now. You can easily top out your two Scout XP lines before you reach Pistol Specialist.
3) This is bad for groups with only one scout
I see no fix proposed for this. If a scout groups with one other person, and that other person is not a scout, they suffer for it. Substitute "person" for "droid" and it gets acknowledged as a bug, but a Smuggler/Artisan is as bad at harvesting corpses as a droid.
Throw this flawed and eploitable system away. Implement the note that is on the previously discussed loading screen. Allow (UP TO) three scouts to harvest the same corpse for the different resource types. Passing it through the above:
1) You can increase total harvesting output by up to 300%. You can't get 1200% of the same resource anymore, which means you'll have to work a great deal harder to control the market.
2) Up to three scouts can be gaining xp at once. Add in the system message notifying the group when someone harvests or loots a corpse, and the tools will be in place to police ninja looters. See below.
3) If you're the only scout, you're completely unaffected.
Claiming that the community obviously can't police itself is true. Saying this is obviously because we're incapable of it is false. There is no way to know which of the five people standing within 10m of a corpse just harvested it. Who do you kick out of the group?
In summation:
The 60% rule is exploitable and has serious drawbacks. It achieves the goal of encouraging people to group, but only people who are after the xp, or people who are willing to form harvesting syndicates.
Machs,
I'd agree with you if the implementation was done in a vacuum, two months ago, with no bugs.
At the time is was a very big issue with Scouts. There weren't enough Rangers at that point in the game to make much of a difference.
The potential benefits to the new system are real, and they are substantial. If they can be fixed to what they should be, we can reevaluate and see if your opinion remains valid.
B
Ekh,
1.) This is good for dedicated harvesting groups
Unfortunately, that means anyone NOT in a dedicated harvesting group is 12 times less effective, and therefore unable to compete economically. It also means that other values will be modified in accordance with any surge in resources, making large harvesting groups the only viable way to get resources at all.
You are basing your assumption off of a 20 person dedicated harvesting group. I've never been in one of these. I bet most people haven't. And I doubt many groups would be affective at this size. As you increase a group above 8 or 9 members, you lose coherency exponentially for each member over 9. A group of 20, unless possessing Stormtrooper like discipline, would fall apart in about 10 minutes.
But what it will do is help give Scouts and Rangers a reason to find a dedicated group to go harvesting with. This increases the grouping in the game, and as the professions are balanced to ensure that no one can solo a red conned mob by themselves or with pets, these groups will become a necessity.
2) This is good for gaining scout xp fast
This should really not be the point. Scout XP is very easy to come by right now. You can easily top out your two Scout XP lines before you reach Pistol Specialist.
I agree that getting Scout XP is easy, but I don't exactly agree on the speed. Now that Maskscent is working again, perhaps. But I'm splitting hairs. It was never my intention, nor the Scout communities for this to bea quick meansto gainXP.
3) This is bad for groups with only one scout
I see no fix proposed for this. If a scout groups with one other person, and that other person is not a scout, they suffer for it. Substitute "person" for "droid" and it gets acknowledged as a bug, but a Smuggler/Artisan is as bad at harvesting corpses as a droid.
Throw this flawed and eploitable system away. Implement the note that is on the previously discussed loading screen. Allow (UP TO) three scouts to harvest the same corpse for the different resource types. Passing it through the above:
Most groups are going to have more than one scout, especially if the group has more than three members. And the one-scout-gets-one-type still doesn't solve the problem of ninja griefing - if someone wants all of the meat and doesn't care about the others, he can still take it. The 60% rule is the only grief proof means of solving the ninja harvesting problem once and for all.
1) You can increase total harvesting output by up to 300%. You can't get 1200% of the same resource anymore, which means you'll have to work a great deal harder to control the market.
Increasing the crafting costs across the board will solve this problem just as well, and won't require a recoding of the system.
2) Up to three scouts can be gaining xp at once. Add in the system message notifying the group when someone harvests or loots a corpse, and the tools will be in place to police ninja looters. See below.
It may make it harder for a ninja harvester to keep doing what they're doing, but it won't solve the problem. It just puts more pressue on the group leader to handle the situation. I'd rather not leave it in their hands - not every group leader is competent. If we're going to solve the ninja harvesting problem, lets solve it once and for all, and not half ass it.
3) If you're the only scout, you're completely unaffected.
Claiming that the community obviously can't police itself is true. Saying this is obviously because we're incapable of it is false. There is no way to know which of the five people standing within 10m of a corpse just harvested it. Who do you kick out of the group?
The one who doesn't say "Who got that one?" 
Or the one who ran in as the thing got killed. And even if you kick the guy, you're just giving your problem to someone else. That may be expedient, but it doesn't solve the problem.
The 60% rule is exploitable and has serious drawbacks. It achieves the goal of encouraging people to group, but only people who are after the xp, or people who are willing to form harvesting syndicates.
The 60% has the potential to be exploited, but so do multiple game dynamics. There are plenty of ways to off-set the increase in hide and bone that don't require the removal of this feature. The goal is to encourage people to group by removing a disincentive to join groups - that they won't gain XP as fast as when the solo, that they won't gain hide/bone/meat as fast as when they solo. Now these are gone, so there's no reason - other than personal perference - to not group. As for the harvesting syndicates - I'll be very surprised if this starts to happen. I just don't think it's as feasible as you tend to think. 20 person groups are rare, outside of PvP anyway. Seeing one hunting would be a mean feat of group leadership.
I'd almost be willing to let them get a buttload of hide and bone, just as a reward for pulling it off.
I stand by my suggestions. Restoring the solo levels, fixing the group bugs, and upping the crafting costs of all items should solve all of the problems that could arise here. If it doesn't, then we'll have your plan B to fall back on.
B
I'd like to also suggest yet a third way to possibly solve this:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=ranger&message.id=12289
It would be a conciderable investment to code, but I feel it's the fairest and could be donein concert with the max resource idea.
I'm giving a worst case for 1200%, but if you get 10 people, that's 600% still. Certainly significant.
DeltaXi65 wrote:You are basing your assumption off of a 20 person dedicated harvesting group. I've never been in one of these. I bet most people haven't. And I doubt many groups would be affective at this size. As you increase a group above 8 or 9 members, you lose coherency exponentially for each member over 9. A group of 20, unless possessing Stormtrooper like discipline, would fall apart in about 10 minutes.
Aye, it will increase that kind of group. But it won't do much for grouping just because you wanted to join your friends for a bit.But what it will do is help give Scouts and Rangers a reason to find a dedicated group to go harvesting with. This increases the grouping in the game, and as the professions are balanced to ensure that no one can solo a red conned mob by themselves or with pets, these groups will become a necessity.
How many of those groups have Scouts that didn't just stop there on their way to Bounty Hunter? As in, is it still "most" groups that will have more than one person wanting to harvest?I see no fix proposed for this. If a scout groups with one other person, and that other person is not a scout, they suffer for it. Substitute "person" for "droid" and it gets acknowledged as a bug, but a Smuggler/Artisan is as bad at harvesting corpses as a droid.
Most groups are going to have more than one scout, especially if the group has more than three members.
Yes, but substituting a solvable grief for a potentially economy damaging exploit doesn't seem wise to me.The 60% rule is the only grief proof means of solving the ninja harvesting problem once and for all.
But, this will still create oligopolies whereby only the people who are willing to organise the large harvesting groups will be able to sell sufficient quantities of resource, on top of which it will drive up prices of end goods.Increasing the crafting costs across the board will solve this problem just as well, and won't require a recoding of the system.
As I said above, I don't think putting the ninja harvesting problem aside in favour of an exploit is wise. By allowing people to identify the ninja harvesters easily, and identify group leaders who tolerate it, the power is given back to the players to choose what sort of people they group with. You are correct that allowing everyone to harvest removes even the possibility of a ninja harvest, but it's like fixing a squeaky gate by tearing out the gate and building a solid fence.2) Up to three scouts can be gaining xp at once. Add in the system message notifying the group when someone harvests or loots a corpse, and the tools will be in place to police ninja looters. See below.
It may make it harder for a ninja harvester to keep doing what they're doing, but it won't solve the problem. It just puts more pressue on the group leader to handle the situation. I'd rather not leave it in their hands - not every group leader is competent. If we're going to solve the ninja harvesting problem, lets solve it once and for all, and not half ass it.
What if the guy who asks is the guy who's harvesting, being sneaky? Or if you're all milling about because there's multiple spawns to deal with? The fact is, there is no reliable way to know who is ninja harvesting. Add that, and we CAN police ourselves. People who care will learn who not to group with, and who is a bad leader.3) If you're the only scout, you're completely unaffected.
Claiming that the community obviously can't police itself is true. Saying this is obviously because we're incapable of it is false. There is no way to know which of the five people standing within 10m of a corpse just harvested it. Who do you kick out of the group?The one who doesn't say "Who got that one?" Or the one who ran in as the thing got killed. And even if you kick the guy, you're just giving your problem to someone else. That may be expedient, but it doesn't solve the problem.
The only way to offset the increase in total hide and bone is to devalue a single unit of hide or bone, and that means people will be forced to harvest more units than before to get the same value, which means you're not removing a disincentive to group, you're creating a requirement to group. A solo hunter will not be able to produce a meaningful volume.The 60% rule is exploitable and has serious drawbacks. It achieves the goal of encouraging people to group, but only people who are after the xp, or people who are willing to form harvesting syndicates.
The 60% has the potential to be exploited, but so do multiple game dynamics. There are plenty of ways to off-set the increase in hide and bone that don't require the removal of this feature. The goal is to encourage people to group by removing a disincentive to join groups - that they won't gain XP as fast as when the solo, that they won't gain hide/bone/meat as fast as when they solo. Now these are gone, so there's no reason - other than personal perference - to not group. As for the harvesting syndicates - I'll be very surprised if this starts to happen. I just don't think it's as feasible as you tend to think. 20 person groups are rare, outside of PvP anyway. Seeing one hunting would be a mean feat of group leadership.
It doesn't take much leadership to wander in a relatively safe area and wipe out anything that moves, and have everyone harvest every corpse they see. Miss a few corpses, doesn't matter, you're still getting 10 times the resources. Even a group of 10 is getting five times as many resources from those corpses as they would individually.
I don't think I should need to comment on the wisdom of ignoring a potential exploit because there are other existing exploits.
What do you do about the devaluation of 1 unit of hide? What do you do about the rise in cost of crafted items? How do you keep a solo hunter competetive? Do you shrug off single scout groups with, "Oh well, there's not many of them anyway?" That last is certain to be true with such an indiscriminate change.I stand by my suggestions. Restoring the solo levels, fixing the group bugs, and upping the crafting costs of all items should solve all of the problems that could arise here. If it doesn't, then we'll have your plan B to fall back on.
And, finally, despite our disagreement on this, I too feel you're doing a good job as the Correspondant. Thank you.
First off, good letter, I think we will all be interested in seeing the response.
Secondly, what impact do you all think the following scenario might have (mentioned previously a few days ago):
First consider awider range of harvest amounts between novice scout with harvest I and master ranger with maxed harvest. In addition, the group harvest 'penalty' should likewise be based upon this. After all, 3 master rangers should know how to better skin and clean an animal for maximum results compared to 3 novice scouts. This would still allow scouts to group, but likewise still reward those that have pursued Ranger as an elite class rather then everyone merely getting harvesting 2 or 3 so they can field strip a kill. Combine this with the 'set resource #' that was proposed by another scout and what you have is a system that allows those that pursue the scout line to its peak a benefit for their determination while still allowing those that dabble to benefit when grouped.
For solo scouts, why not drop the harvest rate by say 15%-20%. This gives enough cause to group, but is not such an hit that soloing is no longer viable for what is predominantly a solo class. We are talking a pretty small percentage (instead of 50 hides you now get 40-45, instead of 10 hides you now get 8, etc.) that could more then be made up for.
I generally agree with Ekhben's perspective and conclusions. The 60% solution moves scouting/rangering from a condition where wehad too much of a disincentive to group to a condition where we have too much of an incentive to group. Grouping shouldn't be discouraged, but it shouldn't be made a virtual necessity, either.
People solo for a variety of reasons. As far as I am concerned, I feel lucky ifI get to play SWG4-5 hours a week, and even then, it is often at weird times when relatively few people are logged on. That makes it muchharder to find other players to group with, so I end up soloing almost all the time. The idea that a group of tenscouts will get to harvest 600% more resources than I can by myself from the same kill doesn't seem fair. Raising the resource requirements for crafted itemsmay help a little, but how much do you suggest they be raised? Not 600%, I presume. Also, I wonder how the crafters will feel about the resource requirements being raised.
Maddio,
Once the bug in the amount is fixed or (as I have suggested) the reduction is rolled back entirely, solo Scouts and Rangers will be no worse off than they were before.
They will have an incentive to group. Is it a good incentive? Yes. Is it exploitable? Possibly. But you also need to recognize that just for the reason you have outlined - powergamers vs. casual players - this will be kept under control.
We also need to realize that there are two additional changes with the patch that will help reduce the amount of harvestable materials in the game - First, the increased amounts of material needed to craft camps and traps, and - Second, the introduction of camo kits for Rangers that require very specific kinds of harvestable materials.
The increased amounts and changes in camp crafting is extremely significant. For example, prior to the patch a High Tech Field Base required 45 polymer and 55 metal (if I recall correctly). After the patch, they require 35 metal, 35 hide and 25 bone. That's a major sink right there, especially as more Master Rangers emerge thanks to the new attractiveness of the profession.
The Devs have spoken at length about a plan to give clothing a decay - clothing is primarily made from hides, thus creating a more substantial market for hide and bone and yet another sink.
Increasing the across the board crafting costs for materials by as little as 5% per item should make the increases managable, with the increased supply reducing the costs for the crafters, but not really causing much long term damage. The market will, as the econo-weenies say, reach equilibrium.
B
Thank you for the great job your doing Delta. As I get closer to mastering my professions, I am reading my job's board more and more instead of just my galaxy's board. I have noticed scouts and rangers are fortunate to have you as our correspondent.
I hope the dev's do raise our harvests back to pre-patch levels. I play about 20 hours a week, give or take. I run a nice little business myself with some good customers. I usually group with my PA for hunts 3-5 hours a week, roughly a quarter of my hunting time. Sometimes I group with a hunting party I see forming outside the starport or whereever if the group looks like it has good leadership judging by the tells. When running my business, however, I'm usually solo looking for a specific hide.
It's very tough to convince a group of strangers, or even my PA for that matter, to go hunting wooly on Corellia because it's currently giving high stats. Of course I harvest whatever my group is hunting (XP or planet hunting), but it's not usually the hide my customer wants. I can sell whatever I harvest on the bazaar, but from a business standpoint I have to hunt solo sometimes.
I like the 60% rule for larger hunting parties; however, for smaller parties (myself, a medic and carbineer for instance) that get together after chatting at the cantina it doesn't work. I'm still punished for grouping. I don't really see a way around it. Allowing multiple scouts in a group to harvest only the two or three resources available sounds promising, but someone is always going to be stuck with the bone. 
Ninja harvests always piss'ed me off in those large groups, but PA hunts are always organized with resource sharing and harvesting 'turns'. Ninja harvesting never kept me from grouping with people I don't know.
In the end I group for social reasons and not economic, although contacts I make create economic opportunities (such as grouping with a tailor who decides I need a 'new look'). I would like to keep it that way. I'm personnally still not self-sufficient because I need food to wear my armor, stims for healing and entertainment to cure my BF. That should make the dev's happy. I would like to keep my business only dependent on my customer's neeeds and not add the additional requirement of having to find a hunting group to fill my orders.