Scout Archive
Thread: Camping Forced Purchase of Scout
Brisc-
Besides the point that I agree with you about 98% of the time, and I also agree that non-Scouts should leave us alone to happily harvest creatures, I do have one bone of contention.
I will use my SOE(?) given, maybe DEV given, whoever - right to call you an Impie when I want. So neener neener.
And quit being so nice to the sniveling, whining, want-it-all-at-no-price cry babies. Send them packing, tails between their legs.
Or, do my ridiculous solution - for every profession that wants camping, just the basic camp, can't make it, only can use it - we, Scouts - get to pick one of their abilities to add to our profession. That willquiet about 90% of them up.
BW - be narrow minded, works for me. The rest of SWG wants to pop a camp, become a scout, only 15 skill pts, cheap at twice the cost, once you figure in the harvesting.
And finally, to Ruf, 4-0-4-0 or whatever. You have the profession of Scout, that's it. dabbling in two lines does not a Scout make.
Nuff said
JB
(anyone who proposes the /atomic wedgie command for use on the Pee river on Lok is ok in my book)
JBMat wrote:
And finally, to Ruf, 4-0-4-0 or whatever. You have the profession of Scout, that's it. dabbling in two lines does not a Scout make.
4-0-4-0 in the scout tree makes him a CH.
I agree with Delta on this. The problem is not scout related other than it takes scout points to make a camp. Next these whiners are going to want mask scent too so they can runnext toagro MOBs.
On the other hand, maybe the Devs should let anyone use, but not make,a basic camp. I wouldn't mind selling some camps for 5k a pop.
Hey Tarkus -
I agree, let everyone use camps, but only scouts can make em.
5k is a wee bit low, considering the time and effort and material we expend making camps. And we gotta find just the correct primo materials. And those critical failures.
Using the artisan method of (materials + effort + labor) x (the date + the sum of the digits in your name) x a random number over 100 - I think basic camps should go for 7500 a pop. Golly gee whiz, I can be an merchant (pls holo, don't say that, Chef is bad enough).
JB
We don't need to make non-scout camps because that would give non-scouts abilities like healing over time, which should be a camp's primary purpose (at the low end). If the only function of a non-scout camp is to pull vehicles, then it just becomes a waste of time and a further annoyance. So no non-scout camps. I can agree with that.
Letting people pull out vehicles without a camp loses nothing from the profession. All it does is encourage people that shouldn't and wouldn't be scouts to become novice scouts. We already have plenty of people in the profession for pre-reqs or because they actually enjoy Scout, so it can't be to keep some inflated sense of self-importance is it?
As for the bugs, these have been with us for six months in the case of pets (vehicles are just an extension) and still present. Yes ideally they should never auto-store but it might be another six months before they are gone. What about someone that is disconnected and auto-logged or has to log out right then and there? I guess the casual-friendly nature of the game is dead anyways, so maybe this part of the argument is pointless.
If I find it an annoyance and can make any camp from a basic to a high-tech field base (and have crates of these pre-made), I feel for those that can't do it at all. Just to be clear, I don't find it an annoyance to make camps for healing or crafting, their intended and useful purpose, only to call vehicles and pets.
Delta, here is my challenge to you: You cling to the importance of this to scouting, but what exactly is this going to destroy? What game-breaking imbalance is going to form from this change? I can see it with artisan and sampling. I can see it with medic and med-use, entertaining and fatigue, weapons and certifications, but I am unable to see why pulling a vehicle out must be tied to our camps. All I have seen so far is that you're more scared to let go than a viable argument as to why it is needed.
Are camps utterly useless otherwise? If so, that means they need improvements, not to keep an annoying game mechanic tied to them. For balance? How? So convince me, Delta. Why is it imperative vehicles can only be called from camps?
Get the bug fixed and no more whining, put the vehicles in garages and leave the scouts alone. Now go pester the artisans, I am sure they would love to discuss the bugs with you.
Dunk Wunklin
Lowca
Master Scout / Novice Ranger / Novice CH / Novice Fencer
Shadowfire
Master Scout / Novice CH / Novice BE / Novice Fencer
Seiryuu wrote:
but I am unable to see why pulling a vehicle out must be tied to our camps. All I have seen so far is that you're more scared to let go than a viable argument as to why it is needed.
So convince me, Delta. Why is it imperative vehicles can only be called from camps?
You must have been reading different posts than what I've read because I never saw Delta say that vehicles must be called from camps. Reading more carefully you'll see that Delta is saying camps shouldn't be able to be used by anyone without having scout skills. He's saying that the devs need to change the mechanics of how one calls forth a vehicle or pet rather than giving everyone the ability to set up a camp. He's saying that rather than take something from a class and giving it to everyone the devs need to fix what's broken. That's not such a hard concept to understand is it?
Seiryuu,
"What game-breaking imbalance is going to form from this change? I can see it with artisan and sampling. I can see it with medic and med-use, entertaining and fatigue, weapons and certification...but I am unable to see why pulling a vehicle out must be tied to our camps.
- The #1 reason why Scouts have as an incentive for groups of players to seek them out is camps.
- If a group has a doctor with a droid - theywouldn't need a camp to heal.
- If vehicles/pets/droids are pullable anywhere without camps, no group will need a Scout
It's a slippery slope, Seiryuu.
What are our most important skills?
- Terrain negotiation - Unnecessary now. Speeders are faster, even uphill.
- Mask Scent - Unnecessary now. Why bother when you can blow past a critter on a speeder. Mask Scent was designed by the devs to make us "more survivable in the wild". Don't need that now.
- Trapping - Unaffected, but not something that entices people to Scouting, or makes us valuable in groups.
- Harvesting - Only helps us, not a group. And when grouped with a Scout, your harvests go down, making soloing more attractive.
- Camping - Healing can be done many places other than in a camp. Docs with droids would make camps unnecessary if they weren't required to pull the droid. Many players having basic medical skills already make the healing modifier less than useful. So at the end of the day, one of the primary reasons for having Camps is for calling pets/droids/vehicles
Now - look at that list. 2 of our 5 most important skills have been rendered nearly useless by the introduction of Vehicles. If you throw camping in there, you've taken away 3 of the 5 major inticements to become a Scout.
And if you aren't going to be harvesting resources, you've got absolutely no reason to go Scout.
Removing the requirements destroys the viability of Scouting as its own profession. It will merely be a pass through for Bounty Hunters, Squad Leaders, Creature Handlers and Bio Engineers - a speed bump on their path to something they really want to do.
Every other novice profession is important in and of itself - Scouting would be the exception. It just wouldn't be worth the 15 skill points for nearly everyone out there. Only us diehards would even bother Mastering it at all.
And where does it end?
Vehicles are great - but there needs to be come enhancements made to the Scouting profession to counterbalance the losses we've had since their introduction. Once mask scent and terrain negotation become important again, I'll feel comfortable reevaluating my stance on this issue.
B
Tark,
That's exactly what I was saying - but I decided to argue on Seiryuu's point anyway. 
B
The scout is still one of the best base professions out there, and everything we have is still very useful. Do you really think our profession is worthless now? Are you forgetting that Scout is nothing more than a stepping stone to advanced professions? (After re-reading I see that no you don't. You think it is a profession on par with elite professions which I think is way off-track.)
* The #1 reason why Scouts have as an incentive for groups of players to seek them out is camps.
* If a group has a doctor with a droid - they wouldn't need a camp to heal.
* If vehicles/pets/droids are pullable anywhere without camps, no group will need a Scout
Only medics, out of all the base professions, are seriously dependent upon grouping. Even then they can sit in a med center all day without grouping once.
- A marksman doesn't need a group to shoot a gun.
- A brawler doesn't need a group to punch or stick a critter.
- An artisan doesn't require a group to make an item or sample resources.
- A medic can still heal themselves. They don't have to be grouped to heal anyone else, but do benefit the most from it.
- A dancer can still dance without anyone present. A social profession like medic, but it does not require grouping at all for advancement, just other people present, and without danger.
It's still beneficial to group. It can be fun to group. It is supposed to be FUN to group. Forcing grouping makes players resent the system. I don't see this forced grouping in any other profession, so why does Scout suddenly need it?
As for healing, how about other solutions instead of saying just saying 'No, we're pathetic. Make others love us.'?
- Make droids have reduced healing efficiency outside of a city or home without being in a camp.
- Give a bonus to healing time or a bonus to the amount healed when in a camp.
- Make the existing healing modifiers mean something, such as a boost to all the recovery stats while in camp.
- Let pets heal faster when in camp. *poof* Instant popularity from the GCW pets, to handlers, to someone with a CL 10 spat.
I'm sure there are other possibilities. Make us truly desirable instead of keeping an annoyance just to make us feel wanted.
* Terrain negotiation - Unnecessary now. Speeders are faster, even uphill.
Not unnecessary at all. My father doesn't run out to west Texas to go hunting. He drives. Once there he does walk.
You can't fight in a vehicle. You can't use specials on a mount. I can use terrain to my advantage in a fight which is where it should matter most. If they would ever fix LoS issues, it would matter even more. Why don't you harp on fixing this instead?
* Mask Scent - Unnecessary now. Why bother when you can blow past a critter on a speeder. Mask Scent was designed by the devs to make us "more survivable in the wild". Don't need that now.
Most animals are scared of running vehicles. You shouldn't need mask scent one in one. Or since we are in a sci-fi setting, make it set them off and more likely to attack.
But again, when on foot this skill is invaluable. Both BE's and CH's could not survive without this skill. If I am fighting aggressive non-social creatures, it prevents adds. (Try fighting mountain squills with and without maskscent then come back and tell me it's worthless.)
Also work on the spawning system. Make it, say, spawn before we reach the area instead of after it? The spawning system is broken, not vehicles. This is as much a bug/feature as vehicles auto-storing, isn't it? Fix this and maskscent matters.
* Trapping - Unaffected, but not something that entices people to Scouting, or makes us valuable in groups.
I guess you've never used a phecnecine dart to pull a CL 55 mob off your healer before. Or stunned something so it does less damage to your melee tank. Or rooted something so all the ranged guys could wail on it.
If it isn't drawing people, maybe it is because no one bothers to let others know just how useful this line can be, or because combat is so out of whack that things are dead before it can reach you. It needs PR and the forthcoming combat balance.
* Harvesting - Only helps us, not a group. And when grouped with a Scout, your harvests go down, making soloing more attractive.
You are so wrong here. I and a few other scouts supply a 65+ active member guild. A few of us together means we are drawing in more resources. We do group hunts for xp and to gather resources specifically. Our very skills are what encourages these to happen in the first place.
If the reduced take bothers you, why aren't you giving the grouping with pets bug that reduces harvests more attention, too? I haven't seen mention of it since we were told it was in fact a bug.
* Camping - Healing can be done many places other than in a camp. Docs with droids would make camps unnecessary if they weren't required to pull the droid. Many players having basic medical skills already make the healing modifier less than useful. So at the end of the day, one of the primary reasons for having Camps is for calling pets/droids/vehicles
When my melee tank takes a 100 point health wound, I'm not waiting until we get back to the city to get it healed.
As for droids healing without a camp, reduce their effectiveness as I said above. Droids help the situation (ie, make it possible), that doesn't mean they have to make it the ideal situation. So you can pull out a droid and heal without a camp? I can pull out a camp and a droid and do it better.
Now - look at that list. 2 of our 5 most important skills have been rendered nearly useless by the introduction of Vehicles. If you throw camping in there, you've taken away 3 of the 5 major inticements to become a Scout.
I find it sad that you really feel our skills are worthless. From a pure utility standpoint, scout is the one profession I could never, ever surrender. Yes, even with vehicles. Even with mounts. Even if camps were not required to call anything.
And if you aren't going to be harvesting resources, you've got absolutely no reason to go Scout.
Ranger. Bounty Hunter. Squad Leader. Creature Handler. Bio-Engineer. Scout itself.
That is 51.7% of base professions and 14.5% of the advanced. You call that nothing? Notice that 37.2% difference? Those are people that have scout only. I doubt all of them are in it for camps to call a vehicle considering vehicles weren't around at the time, nor mounts.
Removing the requirements destroys the viability of Scouting as its own profession. It will merely be a pass through for Bounty Hunters, Squad Leaders, Creature Handlers and Bio Engineers - a speed bump on their path to something they really want to do.
The sky is falling, too. Even if we ignore the actual usefulness of Scout (of which you apparently find none), that is exactly what base professions are. Stepping stones to more advanced professions. Although 37% of SWG seems to find it worthwhile on it's own.
Every other novice profession is important in and of itself - Scouting would be the exception. It just wouldn't be worth the 15 skill points for nearly everyone out there. Only us diehards would even bother Mastering it at all.
Only die-hards bother mastering Artisan, they just want one line. Only Doctors and CM master medic, everyone else just wants enough med use to pop a stim or do it a little more effectively. The only master marksmen are Commandos and Bounty Hunters. The only master entertainers are those that want to be a totally social profession. Your point?
We wouldn't be the exception, and we still are important in and of ourselves. Unless over a third of SWG's population is wrong.
And where does it end?
The Apocalypse from the way you sound.
Vehicles are great - but there needs to be come enhancements made to the Scouting profession to counterbalance the losses we've had since their introduction. Once mask scent and terrain negotation become important again, I'll feel comfortable reevaluating my stance on this issue.
We haven't had any losses. Take the blinders off. It isn't your stance on this issue that needs re-evaluating, but your entire take on Scouting. Seriously.
I think you're so wrapped up in being our correspondent and finding our 'issues', that all you can see are the 'issues'. Take a break, friend. You really sound like you need it.
Our profession is healthy and it is still FUN. Making camps to call vehicles is not.
Seiryuu,
Wow. I don't think I've been attacked that hard since ... well, never really.
Apparently, not only do I think Scouting sucks, I'm out of touch, and in love with my status. Ouch.
First of all, Seir, I was arguing your point - why should we have to use camps to pull anything out at all. Not just vehicles. But this thread was about vehicles, so I focused on that.
No one had a problem with needing a camp for pulling out a droid. No one had a problem with needing a camp to pull out a pet. Those have been in the game since launch - and apparently the Devs thought that it was a good idea. So good, that it's still in the game 7 months later.
Second of all, I think Scouting is the best profession in the game. I have always thought that, and I will always think that, even when my blue tag is gone. I don't think this is the end of the world and I'm really not at all concerned about it. I don't think it's going to happen.
In any event, I apologize for my post - primarily because I was in no state of mind to be trying to intelligently argue your points with you. I think that some of the arguments that have been presented are valid. At the same time, the Scouts have talked about a lot of these issues and they have made it clear to me that the majority of them feel that they would prefer to see the vehicle bugs fixed than the camping requirement removed. It's my job to represent the Scouts - and that's what they want. I apologize that I am not doing that up to my usual level.
Again, I'm not scared. Just representing what I feel is the prevailing sentiment among Scouts. And that's keep us exactly the way we are.
B