Scout Archive
Thread: Delta, whats the latest tally on mask scent?
Delta, since it has been decided these issues be brought up here, here I am. I didn't see any recent, this month, posts on mask scent. Have there been enough responces and tests done showing the same results, for us to show devs it needs working on?
The instance I'm speaking of is not so much the agro on you if it's broken thing. I mean just its effectivness for Rangers, not scouts. My mask scent worked better, even before the first big update, as a master scout then it did once I got novice ranger. I have posted several times, that my, as a novice ranger, mask scent breaks more often then a novice scout, against the same creatures. I'm in a group as the only ranger and mine is the one that breaks all the time, hardly ever the novice scouts. That is not right.
I have had low level creatures like kreetles break my mask scent more then once. Even while I was walking by them and not running. I know the bonus given for walking. I use that to my advantage when walking past high level stuff. I am novice pistaleer, and kreetles are light blue to me. They should not be breaking a master scout mask scent, ever. Nothing that is blue to a master scout should break mask scent. Period. I can see maybe a 1% of the time they do.
Otherwise what's the point of mask scent? I had that kreetle break it back there, I cant turn it on just yet because of the timer, oh no there is a dragonet. It sees me because I don't have my mask scent on and attacks me.
Please, Delta, tell me we have given enough info for them to keep looking at it.
Squid,
Here's the latest on maskscent.
First, your skill as a Ranger now has nothing to do with it at all. As all Rangers are Master Scouts, it won't make a difference how far along you are as a Ranger. You've maxed out your mask scent modifier at Master Scout. So if Rangers are noticing a difference, its based on the environment rather than on themselves.
Second, it appears from the posts that I've been seeing that maskscent works very well for lower level scouts (Explore II), not so good for middle level scouts (Explore III, IV) and great for high level Scouts (Master).
The tiering of the timer based on your level has been met with much joy. Master Scouts only need to wait 15 seconds to reapply maskscent, instead of the 60 seconds needed by lower level Scouts.
I am still trying to figure out if the breaking that some Scouts are finding is because of the things that they are doing, or because of a bug. Like I said - my experience in game has been good. Maskscent gives XP whenit should, only breaks when I'm too close in a crowd of too many aggro creatures and sometimes they will attack me and other times they won't.I know that you and others have had different experiences.
Those who started playing after the "big" update don't know how maskscent is supposed to work, so I'm still dealing with those who don't get that it's not supposed to never break.
Just to recap - maskscent works best when you are prone and moving slowly towards solitary creatures. Running into large lairs filled with reds is going to cause it to break, even if those reds are Kreetles or Nightspiders. I know you know this, but I'm just making sure.
So the issue is still on the radar (we had a large thread on maskscent after the update that I had stickied but removed because it was cluttering up the top of the screen), and I'll be checking with GreenMarine when he gets backfrom vacation this week.
B
Thanks for your responcse Delta.
As you said, I'm aware of how mask scent is supposed to work, playing since day one. And I'm fine with that, I don't expect 100%. I also know that my rangers skills have nothing to do with mask scent, I was clarifying, that since I'm a ranger I have master scout. And since I have master scout my mask scent is maxed out at +100. In general my mask scent is working pretty good and no other complaints about it. When I'm solo, I feel it is working fine, except when a light blue con breaks it. As I said, I tested, and it broke when I was walking, not running, past some kreetles.
The major concern I have for mask scent is that in a group of one master scout, me, and 3 novice level scouts, mine was continually the one that broke. We were all running, we were all running together past the same creatures. I can understand by pure chance mine broke sometimes, as well as theres. But by design, the master scout should be breaking a lot less then the novice scouts. A novice scout has less then +100 to mask scent. Even at Explore 4, you are still under 100 until you get master scout. None of the people I hunted with were master scouts. We all made fun that the master scout was the one who constantly put the group in danger because my mask scent broke and I got agroed.
I know of all the other complaints of mask scent, some legit, some not(wanting it to never break). I just think that I had to many experiences of the above situation to chok it up to chance and bad luck.
Squid,
Yeah, I know there is something screwy going on there. (Most of that thread was for the noobs, by the way. 
).
I was on Tat today, and had the same Kreetle issue everyone else had - even though I was petting Greater Womp Rats and Sycks and not having a problem.
There's something quirky in there somewhere.
B
I haven't seen this posted, so I'm going to post it here. We have done some testing, and it seems that once you max your scout experience mask scent starts breaking. My mask scent has been broken for a while, and I'm maxed at 30k scout experience.
A friend of mine had no problems with mask scent, his was always working and he got experience. As soon as he hit the scout experience max (for his particular point up the tree) it stopped working, and started breaking.
I would like to see if the other people that are having problems with mask scent are also maxed at their level on scout experience.
KD,
That's a very interesting hypothesis. We'll need to test that out.
Anyone else have this problem?
B
Long post:
Delta,
Ok, just let me get this straight. 1) The camo modifiers in Ranger Wayfaring that existed from day 1 never had any effect on anything? Or are you saying that the additional Rangermodifers were removed from the Maskscent check in the last patch? 2) Maskscent is supposed to be useless in ninety nine percent of our encounters with aggressives because the game spawns mobs in groups ninety nine percent of the time and getting near a group of aggros is SUPPOSED to break Maskscent? 3) CL4 mobs are and should be no different than CL275 mobs in their ability to break Maskscent? 4) Everyone is ok with these thingsincluding you? (BTW I'm not ok with these things.) 5) The patch notes that stated Maskscent is now less likely to break was actually correct and it's not breaking more now than just prior to the patch? Or are you saying that what the devs meant to say was, Maskscent will now break a lot more than before this patch but not as much as it did sometime before the first major patch (which is not at all what the patch notes said)?
You are saying that some people report good results with Maskscent, so it sounds to you likethe ones having problems are at fault.Maybe those who report it works fineare using non-Scout avoid tactics and areincluding non-aggro mobs in their estimations? I personally am rarely aggroed by humanoidswhen I haveMaskscent up. Does that mean Maskscent works well against humanoids? No, it means I know how to avoid aggro by distance, speed and direction changes. Maybe some of those good results are actually not the skilll at work, but people unintentionally but intuitively not using the skill at all. Maybe you have good results with it because you avoid as many mobs as you can thereby using the skill as little as possible. That would certainly yield a low break/aggro rate, but it hardly means the skill works well. For a skill to work well it must work consistently when it actually applies. Can you seriously say that Maskscent works consistently and reliably in the course of normal play and travel? And if you can, please give us your definition of reliably. Remember, I mean relying on Maskscent, I don't mean relying on non-Scout/Ranger avoidance techniques to keep from relying on Maskscent.
I started as a Scout the first week of July. I was a Scout in beta before that. I have seen the changes in Maskscent and I'm saying from my own experience based on consistent tactics related to Maskscent, that it breaks far more often and to far more types of mobs than it did at any time in retail before this patch. Earlier in retail when certain mob types broke it more often, at least we could avoid those types mobs, but now everything breaks it. Further, it breaks from a greater distance and causes aggro from outside mobs' normal aggro range which it has never done before.
You say it is supposed to work well against single mobs? Example: Today there was a single Giant Dalyrake caught in a structure. Every third time on average that I passed the Dalyrake from a distance of over 64m (radar set at 64, it was outside that) it would break my Maskscent. That's an instance of a 33% break rate on a single aggro mob from a distance outside it's normal aggro range. Nothing else was on radar or HUD to break it. I passed the structure a dozen times with four breaks. Example: I oftenfindnon-mission lairs and work them since they produce more mobs than mission lairs. When aggro mobs spawn while Iam working a non-mission aggressive spawn lair (regardless of CL, etc.), about every fourth mobhas broken Maskscent. I'm not factoring in the initial kills of the mobs already at the lair when I come up, so I'm not counting group breaks (although Maskscent should work against groups).I'm only refering tothe single spawns produced after the intial spawn-mobs are killed. That's an instance of single mobs breaking at 25% with a much larger encounter sample. Example: When leaving Nym's Stronghold on Lok there was a ring of fairly high concentration of 20ish and below mobs (where I passed through it). It started about 200m outside the water and continued for about 500m. In that 500m Maskscent was broken four times. When running a mission the following day from the same place it was broken six times, three going out and three coming in. I can't put a percentage on these, except to say I was looking at a break every ten totwenty seconds, and standing still so as not to activate mob detection while I waited for the Maskscent reapply counter to tick down the rest of the time.
I supppose you don't believe Maskscent should work in that situation. But I offer another perspective. It is exactly in that situation that it should work, and work well. Because it is only in that situation that one must rely almost exclusively on the skill andnot avoid using the skill by using avoidance tactics anyone can use.
But, just so I have this clear, let me capsulize how I perceive you are saying Maskscent is supposed to work. If I happen to see a single mob somewhere on a planet with nothing else on my HUD or radar, and I get on my belly and crawlpast the mob, it should only rarely break my Maskscent?Maybe that sounds like a useful skill to you, but it surely doesn't to me. It is a whole lot easier, quicker and more reliable to just do a semicircle around the mob at 64m and go on my way, never having relied on this so-called skill at all.
Perhaps I'm misapprehending what you are saying. But I believe I am very close to your "vision" of Maskscent (i.e. groups should break it, it should only work reliably if you are crawling). Please feel free to correct my perception by giving me an example of how Maskscent would prove useful in, for example, travel through Dathomirwhen mob spawn is heavy ortaking out an aggressive mob lair on a starting planet. Please give a step by step description of how you would use Maskscent to make those events easier, and what specific function it would play. Assume one break for every two groups of mobs on Dathomir and one break for every six mobs in the lair. Further assume one aggro from outside the normal radius on every fifth break on Dathomir. Conclude whether or not you believe the skill is useful in either of those scenarios or could just as easily have not been used. If you conclude it is not useful or isharmful in those scenarios, then give a specific example of a situation we encounter on a regular play basis in which Maskscent would be useful as a skill (not as an alternative source of experience), and why it is significantly more effective than other skills in that situation.
DeltaXi65 wrote:
Squid,
Yeah, I know there is something screwy going on there. (Most of that thread was for the noobs, by the way.
I was on Tat today, and had the same Kreetle issue everyone else had - even though I was petting Greater Womp Rats and Sycks and not having a problem.
There's something quirky in there somewhere.
B
I'm having the same problem, so I can confirm it. I'm also on Tatooine almost exclusively, it's where my mining operation is. I can run through a 3-critter spawn of bocatts and almost never have maskscent broken. But, more often than not, the same size spawn of kreetles, one of them will break maskscent.
It's not a huge issue, the way I play the game. But it's something that needs looking into, for sure.
I submitted a bug in-game. What is going on?
Dverr,
1) The camo modifiers in Ranger Wayfaring that existed from day 1 never had any effect on anything? Or are you saying that the additional Rangermodifers were removed from the Maskscent check in the last patch?
Prior to the patch, maskscent did a check versus your camo modifier. Maskscent since the patch has nothing to do with camo, and relies on your "maskscent" modifier, which at Master Scout is +100. So now a Master Scout and a Master Ranger will have the exact same experience with Maskscent, even though they didn't before.
2) Maskscent is supposed to be useless in ninety nine percent of our encounters with aggressives because the game spawns mobs in groups ninety nine percent of the time and getting near a group of aggros is SUPPOSED to break Maskscent?
No. The way the system works is that you "roll" a maskscent check against each aggressive creature that is within the maskscent radius. The more reds, the more "rolls", and anyone who's played Craps in Vegas knows that each roll has the same odds of crapping out. I've gotten lucky and not had maskscent break on me in a group of Sentry Hermit Spiders, and I've gotten unlucky and had one lone Nightspider aggro on me. But the PROBABILITY of it breaking when surrounded by reds is higher, based solely on the number of checks.
3) CL4 mobs are and should be no different than CL275 mobs in their ability to break Maskscent?
No. CL is factored into the equation. The equation should be now (based on what it was before):
(Float)Chance of Successful Maskscent = (100 + maskscent modifier) - Creature Level.
After that, the run/walk/crawl percentage is factored in. For some reason, people are having more issues with the lower level creatures than with the higher level creatures. This is something I'm going to bring up with GreenMarine.
4) Everyone is ok with these thingsincluding you? (BTW I'm not ok with these things.)
I don't know what you mean by "ok". I think that Maskscent, when viewed on the whole, is working much better than it ever has - better being defined as "closer to how it is supposed to work". Some people are having problems, some aren't. I don't think it's perfect, but its getting there. There are still some concerns, and I'm going to pass them along. I'm also still trying to gather as much information as I can, so that we can help Green pinpoint exactly where the problem is.
5) The patch notes that stated Maskscent is now less likely to break was actually correct and it's not breaking more now than just prior to the patch?
This was, in my opinion, a poor explanation in the patch notes. This should have read "Maskscent is now less likely to break than it did BEFORE the big update." Because we all know that Maskscent was never breaking for many of us, but it never gave XP after the big update. The problem that we're having in discussing this issue is that we've got three different perceptions of Maskscent - How it originally worked (pre/post timer), how it worked after the big update (never broke, but no XP), and now (breaking again andgiving XP).
Or are you saying that what the devs meant to say was, Maskscent will now break a lot more than before this patch but not as much as it did sometime before the first major patch (which is not at all what the patch notes said)?
Yes.
You are saying that some people report good results with Maskscent, so it sounds to you likethe ones having problems are at fault.
No, I'm saying that ones who are having the problem are reporting it, but they're not giving me the info that I need. I already laid out that I need specific scenarios where things haven't worked. They need to include the player's level, the planet, what the creature was, what the critters ferocity and CLwas, how many creatures were within your radius, and if you were walking/running/crawling. Everything there but the planet could have something to do with the problem. So far all I've gotten is stuff like "It breaks everywhere against everything all the time" which is useless. This is a small narrow problem that we need hard, anecdotal evidence to figure out.
So far the only creature that I know we're having a lot of problems withare theKreetles on Tat, because this is the most often mentioned creature, and I also tested it myself and had similiar problems.
Maybe those who report it works fineare using non-Scout avoid tactics and areincluding non-aggro mobs in their estimations?
That's what I'm trying to find out.
I personally am rarely aggroed by humanoidswhen I haveMaskscent up. Does that mean Maskscent works well against humanoids? No, it means I know how to avoid aggro by distance, speed and direction changes. Maybe some of those good results are actually not the skilll at work, but people unintentionally but intuitively not using the skill at all.
Agreed.
Maybe you have good results with it because you avoid as many mobs as you can thereby using the skill as little as possible. That would certainly yield a low break/aggro rate, but it hardly means the skill works well. For a skill to work well it must work consistently when it actually applies. Can you seriously say that Maskscent works consistently and reliably in the course of normal play and travel? And if you can, please give us your definition of reliably. Remember, I mean relying on Maskscent, I don't mean relying on non-Scout/Ranger avoidance techniques to keep from relying on Maskscent.
Okay, here's an example. I was running around like an idiot last night trying to find the Badge of Intellect spawn on Tatooine. I had maskscent up the whole time, and wasn't paying full attention to what I was doing, because I am always stuck in chatsville when I'm online. I inadvertantly raninto a group of Greater Desert Womp Rats. They all connedred to me with my T21 up. I blew past about 6 of them, all within 30 meters, got the XP for it and they didn't attack me.
Later, on Tatooine, I came across a group of three kreetles. As soon as I hit within 40 meters, my maskscent broke, but they didn't aggro. Later I tried this again, and I got within 20 meters, and one of them aggroed.
Later, I was on Naboo, attacking Rebels, and I stumbled across a lair of Sentry Hermit Spiders. There were about 6 of them around, and I checked against 5 and the last one broke my maskscent and aggroed me. We were at a range of about 10 meters.
So it seems to be working, in some respects.
I started as a Scout the first week of July. I was a Scout in beta before that. I have seen the changes in Maskscent and I'm saying from my own experience based on consistent tactics related to Maskscent, that it breaks far more often and to far more types of mobs than it did at any time in retail before this patch.
I understand what you are saying, Dverr, but this is simply not possible. I've been playing since the first day, and maskscent was CONSTANTLY breaking on yellows, reds, baby chubas, etc. It's not breaking half as much now, because half the creatures that could break it before can't break it now. Yellows have no effect on it now, whereas in the past they did. So this perception simply cannot be the reality. No one here has given me ANY reports that they are having problems with it breaking on yellows.
Earlier in retail when certain mob types broke it more often, at least we could avoid those types mobs, but now everything breaks it. Further, it breaks from a greater distance and causes aggro from outside mobs' normal aggro range which it has never done before.
You are exaggerating, and its this exaggeration that is causing me the most headaches. Everything is NOT breaking it. Yellows aren't breaking it. That's half of the creature population right there. Obviously though, every creature in the game has a chance to break your maskscent, because you've got to check against each one and there is a bit of randomness in each check (the float). Maskscent is not, and never was intended, to make you invisible or invincible. It was designed to increase your survivability. Now of course, you can make the argument that it's not doing that now because you are having issues with it, but in my experience since the patch it has kept me alivemore oftenthan it has caused me a headaches. And I am having a lot of trouble figuring out if this is a bug, or because people got to used to it working all of the time before.
You say it is supposed to work well against single mobs? Example: Today there was a single Giant Dalyrake caught in a structure. Every third time on average that I passed the Dalyrake from a distance of over 64m (radar set at 64, it was outside that) it would break my Maskscent. That's an instance of a 33% break rate on a single aggro mob from a distance outside it's normal aggro range.
What's the CL on a Dalyrake? And you had to pass the thing THREE times before it broke? Did you get XP for the two passes that it didn't break?
Example: I oftenfindnon-mission lairs and work them since they produce more mobs than mission lairs. When aggro mobs spawn while Iam working a non-mission aggressive spawn lair (regardless of CL, etc.), about every fourth mobhas broken Maskscent.
How close are you getting? And you do recognize that it is working properly for 3 of those 4 times? Do you expect it to consistently never fail? A 25% failure rate is not bad at all when you factor in all of the multiple variables that contribute to determining a success or failure?
I'm not factoring in the initial kills of the mobs already at the lair when I come up, so I'm not counting group breaks (although Maskscent should work against groups).
It does, but you've got a greater chance of getting caught. I don't know of a way around this. I'll ask Green if its even possible to code "lairs" as one creature, but I have a feeling I know what he's going to tell me. Besides, these creatures aren't the Borg here. They each are individuals, and some may be smarter, have a better sense of smell, etc. than the others. So I don't think it's right to consider a "group" the same as "one".
I'm only refering tothe single spawns produced after the intial spawn-mobs are killed. That's an instance of single mobs breaking at 25% with a much larger encounter sample. Example: When leaving Nym's Stronghold on Lok there was a ring of fairly high concentration of 20ish and below mobs (where I passed through it). It started about 200m outside the water and continued for about 500m. In that 500m Maskscent was broken four times. When running a mission the following day from the same place it was broken six times, three going out and three coming in. I can't put a percentage on these, except to say I was looking at a break every ten totwenty seconds, and standing still so as not to activate mob detection while I waited for the Maskscent reapply counter to tick down the rest of the time.
But how many times didn't it break? How much XP did you get from this? It had to have been at least 1000. A 30% or below maskscent breakage - especially when coupled with the new timer tiering - is pretty good. Much better than when we started out.
I supppose you don't believe Maskscent should work in that situation. But I offer another perspective. It is exactly in that situation that it should work, and work well. Because it is only in that situation that one must rely almost exclusively on the skill andnot avoid using the skill by using avoidance tactics anyone can use.
But Maskscent works best, and should work best, in my opinion, when used in conjunction with those avoidance tactics - not instead of them.
But, just so I have this clear, let me capsulize how I perceive you are saying Maskscent is supposed to work. If I happen to see a single mob somewhere on a planet with nothing else on my HUD or radar, and I get on my belly and crawlpast the mob, it should only rarely break my Maskscent?Maybe that sounds like a useful skill to you, but it surely doesn't to me. It is a whole lot easier, quicker and more reliable to just do a semicircle around the mob at 64m and go on my way, never having relied on this so-called skill at all.
What I am saying is that you should run to about 40 or 50m and run past the guy. You'll get the XP, and if it does break, it'll give you range and some time to kill it, or enough time to burst run and get away.
If I can capsulize what you are saying, is that if a creature is below say CL 50, you should be able to walk up to it, pat its head, slap it on the ass, make it a milkshake and not have Maskscent break?
Perhaps I'm misapprehending what you are saying. But I believe I am very close to your "vision" of Maskscent (i.e. groups should break it, it should only work reliably if you are crawling).
That's not what I am saying at all. Here's my vision:
You are running with a group through the wilderness. You are Scouting ahead, because that's your job. You throw up maskscent, and you wind your way through the mobs, trying to keep them all as far from you as possible. It works, and you get the group through safely. OR
You're a BE and you're trying to score some DNA. You throw up maskscent, get on your belly and crawl up to your creature and sample him before he realizes you are there. OR
You're a CH and you're trying to tame a baby. You crawl up slowly behind momma, and get over the baby and you tame him and crawl out silently.
These are situations where I would want Maskscent to work the best. It's not supposed to be some kind of invisibility cloak that lets us run around all crazy go nuts.
It got so bad for me during the last patch because Maskscent never broke and I never got found that my guildmates BARRED me from leading groups because I would just run through herds of Reds and they would all get killed. And half the time I didn't even realize I was doing it, because I was so used to Maskscent never breaking. Now I have to be just as careful, like I was pre-big-update, and they let me lead groups again.
Please feel free to correct my perception by giving me an example of how Maskscent would prove useful in, for example, travel through Dathomirwhen mob spawn is heavy ortaking out an aggressive mob lair on a starting planet.
Say you are running through to Imp outpost, or the Sith Temple. You throw up maskscent and wind your way through the woods. But you've got just asbetter chance of getting aggroed by the force sensitive witches (and Maskscent won't help you at all there) than you have of getting aggroed by the Biz Natches or Rancors. Maskscent isn't, at least in my opinion, designed to make it possible for you to kill aggressive lairs without them ever finding you - it's designed to let you skirt around the things you don't want to get attacked by. That's where it is useful. It's a defensive skill, not an offensive one.
Please give a step by step description of how you would use Maskscent to make those events easier, and what specific function it would play. Assume one break for every two groups of mobs on Dathomir and one break for every six mobs in the lair.Further assume one aggro from outside the normal radius on every fifth break on Dathomir. Conclude whether or not you believe the skill is useful in either of those scenarios or could just as easily have not been used.
It would be useful in getting around those Dath mobs. It would be semi-useful in taking out those lairs, but you'd still probably catch some aggro just based on the number of mods there, and that's assuming that the critters aren't social.
So of course it's useful. But it may not be useful to you, based on your playing style and how you think it should work. Then again, anything short of an invisibility cloak may not be useful, if your goal is to never get aggro or to have maskscent never break.
What would be an acceptable breaking percentage for you? From the sound of your post, you expect it to work all of the time, with no problems. Can you see how that's not a good idea?
If you conclude it is not useful or isharmful in those scenarios, then give a specific example of a situation we encounter on a regular play basis in which Maskscent would be useful as a skill (not as an alternative source of experience), and why it is significantly more effective than other skills in that situation.
I've outlined many of them above. Maskscent, when used in conjunction with your normalavoidance tactics, or CH/BE sampling tactics, or even long range rifling tactics, should prove effective. Using it to attack high level aggressive, social mobs isn't going to work well. Nor is using it to "count coup" on Rancors, or to let you run around Kimos at 10m.
But like I said- I still believe that there is some tweaking that needs to be done, and I would also like an official Dev response on exactly what their goals for maskscent are, because I think you and the others are sick of hearing "my vision" and want to hear something definitive from them. I'll try and get this for you, but my #1 priority is the harvesting issues, and everything else takes a backseat.
B
Delta,
If you still taking information for maskscent, how's this for a maskscent experiment.
Ran to my floral harvester on Lok Sunday Morning, a 2k trip without using maskscent and laying down waypoints as I went. Passed by about 12 groups of red cons (4-5 critters per group), and 2 groups of yellow cons. The closest I got to any of them was 54 meters. None of them attacked me.
Finished getting my resources and started backwith maskscent on. Following the exact same route using the waypoints. I had maskscent break 5 times and was attacked all 5. One of the attacks occurred at the startport while waiting for the shuttle. A crystal snake went aggro and attacked me from 85 meters away. The creatures that broke the maskscent were Perleks, Flit Harrassers, and Crystal Snakes.
Egrim
Master Ranger (Scylla)
Ranger camo modifiers should have continued to increase the reliability of Maskscent in my opinion.
I am familiar with the %chance of failure application of skill checks, yes. You are aware that a one in four chance of failure means statistically over a large number of samples that a check against four mobs which is a common group spawn size approaches a 100% chance of failure, yes?. (I will shorthand this whole argument as "100% fail" to shorten this post.) That doesn't sound like a useable skill to me. So we differ in philosophy on what we consider a useable skill.
The breaks I've had have extended across every aggressive type mob I have encountered. That is, those I have encountered enough to give me a sense of how often they break now v. how often they have broken in the past.
I don't understand your phrase "closer to how it is supposed to work". I think we differ greatly on what we consider how the skill is supposed to work. More on this below.
If the tradeoff is in fact between having a reliable skill that very rarely breaks at the highest levels of the skill line and one that yields experience but breaks a quarter to a third of the time, I prefer the skill be reliable, and the abuse-prone experience component be removed. I think there are other options, but if it's one or the other that's my position.
I mentioned in another thread that it breaks one to three times per mission run agains any aggressive mob type that I pass, meaning sometimes one mob type breaks it, sometimes another mob type breaks it. So essentially, go to Corellia, Tatooine, Talus, Rori, Naboo or Lok, run a few missions. Every aggro mob you see has broken my Maskscent at one time or other. There appears to be no pattern to the breaks, except the overall rate.
Out of four group encounters you successfully Maskscented once and failed or critically failed three times. I don't consider that a working skill. Reliability must be measured v. groups or it is meaningless, i.e. one success and three failures or critical failures out of four groups is too high when you encounter groups ninety nine percent of the time.
I reiterate, you failed or critically failed three out of four group encounters. I would hope this would raise a red flag regarding the utility of the skill in a game that spawns groups. If not, then we vary too widely in our definition of useable skill to agree in principle on Maskscent.
Your experience and my experience is different. I am reporting on a level of the skill that should have begun to be reliable (Explor IV and up). I am saying that Maskscent now breaks more for me than it has at any other time since I got Explorer IV v. mobs overall. Sometimes it's reds, sometimes it yellows, sometimes its blues, sometimes it's light blues, there is no pattern to what will break it now. Low level mobs very rarely broke my Explor IV or higher Maskscent (pre-first big patch or post-first big patch).
I have avoided using the term "yellows" etc since it is dependent on one's melee/ranged skills and is unrelated to Maskscent/Camo. I think it is a counterproductive and confusing term to use. Having said that, pre-20's, 20's, 30's, 40's, 50's all break my Maskscent with no discernible pattern. If it is aggressive and I have encountered it even a few times, it has broken my Maskscent. Again, there is no discernible CL or mob type pattern I have seen. Maybe it makes it more understandable to say, I haven't yet encountered an aggressive mob type that Maskscent reliably holds against since the patch. They all break it equally often regardless of CL etc. Maskscent and Invisibility share the feature of non-detection by NPC's they are functionally the same.
A giant dalyrake is low 20's. Yes I had a 33% failure rate versus a single mob. I have maxed my Scouting Experience so I did not get any message regarding experience. I did however pass the dalyrake at exactly the same point (a gate) each time I passed it. Had it been a group of giant dalyrakes, "100% fail", I don't consider that an acceptable failure rate.
I'm killing the lair spawn. I'm close. I recognize the failure rate versus single lair spawn is 25% in a game that spawns groups of four to six mobs 99% of the time. Again, "100% fail" versus the game engine spawn numbers. That by no means sounds like "working properly" to me.
You yourself failed or critically failed three out of four group encounters with Maskscent in your example. That is a backup skill of last resort, not a reliable skill. I hesitate to even refer to it as a skill at that level of failure.
I'm not suggesting making the group "one mob". What I'm suggesting is a vastly reduced chance of break per mob since we encounter groups of mobs 99% of the time. I'm suggesting total the number of mobs per group spawn, average it, and then set a success/failure rate based on the chance versus groups. More on success/failure versus group below.
With regard to Nym's, I'm maxed on Scouting experience so I didn't see any experience messages. And no, 30% is NOT acceptable. Being able to put it up faster is no substitute for not having it break every ten seconds in a situation where I NEEDED it to work. I'd much much rather wait one minute to put it up again if it failed once per session than wait twenty seconds to put it up again when it fails twelve times per session. One minute once v. four minutes over twelve times. That's a three minute net loss together with reduced reliability. That is a lose/lose situation. Making it quicker per is a placebo. Making it reliable is the cure.
It already required avoiding humanoids. It already required evading stalkers. It still broke versus other aggressives albeit rarely. It is not necessary to require yet MORE non-Scout avoidance tactics. At high levels, we should be able to rely on the skill rather than non-Scout avoidance with regard to creatures, with an eye to CL alone.
With respect to your "aggro zone sideswipe for experience" reference - For you then the primary use of the skill is experience gathering. Now things begin to become clear. You don't mind unreliabe as long as it has a good experience gathering aspect. I on the other hand see Harvesting as producing experience so quickly that Maskscent experience is unnecessary. On the other hand, I see the functionality of Maskscent as indespensable in a game where stealth skills are almost nonexistant. Then we agree to disagree. I'm looking at it from a reliable skill standpoint. You're looking at it as an experience source. I want a viable aspect of the game that enhances greater diversity in character formation. You want an experience source that acts as a backup skill due to lack of reliability. You'll excuse me if I hope the devs don't see it your way.
You are closer than you think with your capsulization of my position. I have described what I believe is reasonable further below in response to your question regarding what I believe the success/failure rate should be. What is UNreasonable is a 25% break rate versus single mobs and the current break rate versus groups of aggressives of any CL level (which in your example was 75%).
Your example of leading a group successfully through aggros by non-Scout/Ranger evasion methods is something that anyone can do. If you can get a non-Maskscented group through an area by using non-Scout/Ranger evasion, then Maskscent is an unncessary skill. I see no function of Maskscent in your example which makes it necessary or even helpful. I'm looking for Maskscent to be a skill that is useful to me, not one I can just as easily accomplish the same goal without.
Regarding BE sampling, the mob is almost always in a group "100% fail". In your CH example, the 75% failure rate you experienced while passing by groups becomes a critical problem when you have to remain in close proximity to the creatures after the Maskscent breaks during a tame. Taming takes time, up to ten attempts. Each attempt takes something like 20 seconds. Maskscent will NOT hold in it's present state during that period of time. As a CH I know this firsthand. Laying prone is not the position you want to be in when taming. Standing up time means time to die. I want to rely on Maskscent to keep me in there. Your experience of a 75% break by groups is not a Maskscent I can rely on to keep me in there.
Regarding problems leading groups pre-patch - If leading groups through large areas where aggressives spawn is what you are doing, I have a simpler solution than reducing the effectiveness of Maskscent for everyone. Leave it off. Use ONLY non-Scout/Ranger evade techniques because that's all your group can use. The skill is a liability when trying to lead non-Scouts/Rangers since you don't get an accurate read of aggros, which is what you experienced. It is not an ability designed to help us lead groups. It is an ability designed to help us avoid aggro. It should function reliably in that respect. Currently it doesn't.
Re your Dathomir example. you say it helps. But at a 25% break v individual mobs and 75% versus groups together with extending the aggro radius and a chance of warping aggroed mobs onto you, I simply don't see how it helps. I envision Lok with level 40plus mobs all around and I shudder when I think of relying on or even applying Maskscent on Dathomir.
Stating, "of course it's useful" doesn't make it so. 75% failure versus groups is not useful. I see a reduction of the only non-weapons related stealth skill in the game to a backup of last resort as a loss for the game and for flexibility in character creation.
Regarding my view of acceptable success/fail rates, I would expect the chance of success to vary by skill level. I would extend the skill level into the Ranger profession as it was before. I would consider a 75% break rate versus groups acceptable at the beginning level of the skill. The level of breaks you experienced with the four groups is, in my estimation, the skill of a beginner, fairly inept at remaining undetected. By Wayfaring IV I think it's reasonable to rarely break against anything that is CL 35 or below, maybe a 5% break rate versus groups. Experience would be extremely small or none at this low probability of break. From CL35 to CL50 at Wayfarer the group failure rate would scale to 25% chance of failure. So one in four groups of 50's would break Maskscent at Wayfaring IV. Before you think deep reds should break it more, remember, cons are related to weapons skills. At Wayfaring IV you are at the highest level of Stealth training other than Master Ranger, so the con would look very different if it were based solely on the Explor/Wayfarer line rather than weapons skills. At Master Ranger you get an additional boost for the CL35-50 groups. Something closer to 10% failure rate to groups, so one in ten groups of CL 50 would aggro you as a Master Ranger. Experience at this level is irrelevant so it could be negligible or nonexistant.
It would be quicker and easier just to take the experience gain out altogether. "Sideswiping" mob aggro ranges in my estimation is too prone to abuse. I remember the days of people heading to Endor to "run around all crazy like" yielding Explor IV and Creature Knowledge IV in a day. I never involved myself in that practice. It sounded like a blatant exploit and I was getting Scout Experience so quickly from Harvesting it seemed unnecessary. I can see where the devs might consider a higher chance of breaking a deterent to that exploit. But I've a feeling there are plenty of folks sideswiping aggro radiuses to climb skill trees even as we speak. I certainly don't see that as the intention of Maskscent, and would gladly be rid of the practice altogether if it meant the one stealth component available to most would be made reliable.
Maskscent has never to the best of my knowledge made attacking high level social animals any easier. I know even before this patch if I fired on a social creature while Maskscented, the rest of the lair would head straight toward me. I have never seen this work otherwise, so no fix was necessary in this regard. Non-social creatures are as susceptible to ranged kneel as to Maskscent.
I have never seen or Examined a Kimo, so I won't comment on that creature, but if you think a CH should be able to use Maskscent to tame a baby Rancor, you better be willing to allow the "count coup" of a Rancor with it, because you ARE that close to the baby and some of the adults when you tame. I think the devs even commented favorably on that use of Maskscent.
I understand and appreciate your efforts to get an official word. I also understand the importance of the harvest issue. You don't have to make Maskscent the central focus, but keep bringing it to the attention of the devs.
In my two overly long-winded posts I hope I expressed my desire that Maskscent, since it is the only non-weapons related form of stealth, will be returned to a reliable skill that we can depend on rather than a backup skill of last resort (even if that means the experience component is scaled down as the skill improves or is removed altogether). The skill added a lot of flexibiity to character development in the game pre-patch. I just hate to see a skill with such potential pushed into a backup role by lack of reliability. Do we really want Riflemen to outstealth Master Rangers in three boxes?
Wow, cool and thanks Delta. I'm glad others have given more info here and that you took the time and effort to experience the same. For example the Kreetles. Pesky things.
OK, my idea on what mask scent should be doing. As your first example above, I'm leading a group, "safely" through the wilderness. I use MS and avoidance to find a path for the group. Obviously I have to take avoidance into account, since my group doesn't all have MS. This helps keep me "safer" while wandering about, increasing my survivability chance.
The other example I think it should be useful, is for scouts/rangers. If I'm hunting and come up on a herd or lair of agros. MS will help me stay "safer" while trying to hunt them. Now assuming these creatures are not social, I should be able to pick them one at a time, with mask scent keeping the others from attacking me.
A group of creatures does have a higher chance of breaking my MS by pure numbers. As Delta said, each creature "roll" against it. The more things in my area, the higher risk I take. I can deal with this and accept it.
With what my perception of how MS should work and what Delta beleives it should be, I'm OK with that.
With that in mind, with all the talk about it on the Ranger forum, I'm thinking there is some connection(not in favor of Rangers) with getting ranger skills and using mask scent. I'm not saying that it is working less effective for master scouts, I'm saying it "might" be working less effective for rangers. As has been said it should be just as effective for a ranger as a master scout, becuase they are both master scouts. Why it might be working less for rangers, I don't know. Maybe some hidden, forgotten code that is left over from when mask scent was still part of rangers, and the camo skill. Who knows. But now that you said youneed CL level, ferocity etc I will try to start collecting that data for you Delta.
As for the comment about having scout xp maxed, I can say that for a few days, until this weekend, I had maxed scout xp. But before and after it maxed I was still having similar experiences with it. My other problem I think is not per design for mask scent is the agro range for breaking mask scent. If I can't target and shoot at a creature farther then 64m away, it should not be able to detect and agro on me more then that distance. In RL sure, but in RL I can shoot a rifle beyond it's "accurate range" I just need to be darn good with it. This is a game, and when I'm out of range for my weapon, it won't let me even shoot. Mask scent checks should not even be done against anything outside of 64m from the character. IMO
Delta, when are talking with Green about this, can you ask what the range is in the formula when mask scent checks are done? And maybe mention, if you agree with this, that it be hard set to within 64m?
Thanks man.