Rifleman Archive

...is a clear definition of the roles that each class should play. Here is an example I used before to explain what I meant:

Imagine two fairly-large, balanced groups in combat with one another -

The riflemen set up from a distance, and provide AE cover fire on clumps of the enemy, and sniper-shot on the long-ranged incaps. (riflemen are AE damage dealers)

The melee charge the opposition, trying to force the riflemen to move, or not move and get hit by the melee. (melee are riflemen killers)

The pistoleers, being short-ranged specialists, are responsible for defending the riflemen from the melee attackers, using PBAEs, short-ranged specials, and the fact ranged attacks aren't affected by melee toughness (which is why pistoleers fill this role better than other melee). (pistoleers are melee killers)

The carbineers provide AE status (stun, dizzy, KD) support, first offensively to support their melee (knock down riflemen, stun pistoleers, and let melee do their thing) then provide defense status support on the charging enemy melee. (carbineers are melee support)

Commandos are capable of filling any of the above roles, but not as well in any of those roles compared to the 'original' (they have AE firepower, but not equivalent to riflemen, they have AE status grenades, but not equivalent to carbineers, they have short-ranged firepower to take out melee, but not as good as a pistoleer, and they should have some melee attacks). They also specialize in taking out static structures if they exist. (commandos are versatile, and structure-killers)

Bounty Hunters operate mostly solo, and chase down isolated individuals, or those that break off from the main group. Bounty Hunters are the ultimate one-on-one combatants, able to adjust their tactics to counter any one individual, but they have access to no special AE attacks, unlike every other combat class. (bounty hunters are masters of duels, but do not 'stack' like other classes)

If we KNOW what the roles are supposed to be, we can make better decisions on what does or does not belong in a class. In the above example, it would be a mistake to give riflemen a powerful anti-melee special, because it infringes on the pistoleer's role of being the melee defender. Similarly, it would be a mistake to give pistoleers or BHs a high-powered AE attack, since it would overlap with the rifleman's niche.

Nice system noules with one flaw:

This system gets messed up when you have a high amount of one class and a way too small amount of an other class.

Well, the system balances itself:

Suppose there were *way* too many riflemen (yes, this is an imaginary exercise). Then melee have a lot of targets to go after, and because of this, they tend to do better than the other classes (almost every other person they attack drops in one hit!). So more people start playing melee, since it's more effective with all those riflemen around. This makes things harder for riflemen, so people start moving out of the profession.

This then makes pistoleers more and more useful, since with more melee running around, you need more anti-melee defense. With the number of pistoleers increasing, melee becomes somewhat less fun to play (every other guy is PBAE2-ing me!).

Well, now that they're a pretty good number of pistoleers, riflemen have nice clumps of targets that generally stay at range and don't get bonuses against them, so they become more viable again.

Also, the given example is just that - an example. The actual roles the professions are supposed to play might be different. I just want to -know- what they are, from the devs, so I know what proposal is reasonable, what part of the game isn't working, and which parts of it are just fine the way they are.

I love that concept, and I wish it were so. However, there is one problem with the execution that I really see no way around.

No one has to stop running.

In a real battle, the melee fighters would "clash" with each other. Their bodies would take up physical space, and they wouldn't be able to pass each other until they defeated one another. In SWG, there is no way to "block" melee fighters from running right past each other to go waste the "ranged support" classes. It sounds like a small item, but it's really not, since ranged players can pretty much toast Riflemen (and ONLY Riflemen) in the time it takes one of us to stand up and re-target.

I've suggested before that Melee players get some sort of "linebacker" ability that allows them to act as obstacles. But I know that in a real-game situation that would just be a grief, as people would "linebacker" buildings, houses, resources, and other players for the sole purpose of making them sitting ducks and/or causing them to get stuck in one spot.

If the problem of combat classes really behaving as they would in real life. . . it would work. Of course, again, in real life, the "ranged support" classes would be more than a four second walk and might even have some physical obstacles between them. Impossible (mostly) with our combat system.

That was my original vision for combat in this game as well. It has been shattered, sadly. *sigh*

I agree with it all =)

But I want to add a small comment . BHs are best 1 on 1 duels because of thier veriaty or weapons and specialssothey canexploithis targets weaknessbut not absolutly stronger in all ways. A master pistolier should win a duel with a MBHif both onlyusea pistol...

You know what else we really need? A frickin' edit button:

It sounds like a small item, but it's really not, since MELEE players can pretty much toast Riflemen (and ONLY Riflemen) in the time it takes one of us to stand up and re-target.

Well, I always realized that melee could be kited. The main role of melee IMO is NOT to kill things (although if they do catch you, you are not going to have fun) but to force ranged players to move and deal with them.

If I have melee and you don't, my melee attackers run at your riflemen who have to either start running, drop their rifles, or die in short order. Meanwhile, my un-melee'd riflemen are prone, merrily AEing away at your formation with superior accuracy (rifle specials are, as we all know, rather inaccurate unless you're well-positioned). A few riflemen in perfect position for AE should be worth a lot more than a lot of riflemen running away from melee, trying not to get killed. While the melee might not have actually killed a whole lot of people, they were still vital to the success of the group.

I do agree that the range is really far too short to effectively allow support lines and such. The other way to deal with this problem (other than just lengthening everything) is to slow people down. One possibility might be to have people in combat mode move much slower (say 50% running speed); as soon as someone shoots at you or goes to combat mode with you, you go into this 'defensive' mode. This mode could be manually toggled off, but you'd be easier to hit, and if you get hit while in full-speed mode, you take extra damage from any attack.

Those are all details, though - the point of the post is, we need to know what those roles that classes are supposed to play are. Maybe riflemen aren't -supposed- to be super AE damage dealers. Then we need to know, so we can tailor our suggestions to the devs towards what our role is supposed to be.

Try this then. A stance/mode or such that switches from using the rifle's power to a standard, generic melee mode, not as good or versital as a TKA/brawler but would help if cornered. This would be the Rifle-butt, welding the rifle itself as a pole arm and dropping the x2.5 to a melee defense. It would be moderat damage (50 to 150 random pool?) and take action in each hit while in the stance. We are not uber and we are not intant dead. Perhaps the weapons themselfs would have a variable melee damage and action cost (small dmg, low action, moderate speed melee for a E11, large dmg to 150, higher action and slow and cumbersome for a T21).

It would be worse then a master brawler or a Novice TKA but help hold up against getting "Jumped" and it would not suspend my realizm for this balance crap... A TKA should also be able to force a disarm such that you no longer are able to equip anything for a time if you do this.

Marines train with the M16 for just this thing. Just a silly thought...

Dude Noules, I LOVE YOU MAN!

I was going to do a post just like this and I think you are right on. The only difference I see is that the Commandos are targeting Vehicles, Buildings, and unfortunate clusters if people together.

And the BH sneaks in behind lines and takes out the opposition's leader. Leaderless, the ENEMY IS CRUSHED...

Oh yeah, and we need love. Sweet love. It's the only thing, that there is just too little of.

Bump.

This is what I feel is needed in order to do anything other than hot-fix balance problems as they come up. We need to know what the game is -supposed- to be, so we can work towards getting there. I hate having to make decisions based on the broken state of the game -now-, while fearing how the game will change -later- because it doesn't fit with the devs' vision.

We have to know what the end result is supposed to be.

I think this post is really good Noules.

Right now there are no real roles for any of the classes, as you pointed out. I had always thought of rifles as the "casters" of SWG ... but sadly there isn't enough of a definition in the game and there is no reward for classes to work together in PvE right now.

Another rifleman on a different thread mentioned the idea of carbineers being the crowd control and debuff class, which makes sense. I'm not sure how pistoleers fit into this. I think part of the problem is that the Devs have no idea what role melee will play, as evidenced by how powerful pets (both CH and faction) are right now. The /tank command they mentioned will help with that though.