Rifleman Archive
Thread: Where did the idea of rifles being slow come from?
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Reardo
Mon Nov 15, 2004 11:24 pm
#1
I've thought of this several times, just never got around to posting anything about it, but where did the idea of rifles being slow come from? Rifles are in reality relatively faster than a pistol and there is no difference in speed between pulling a trigger on a pistol as opposed to a rifle. Generally speaking, heavy weapons are more often than not faster than pistol sidearms with a few exceptions. So, has this misconception come from a gaggle of individuals who have no experience with real firearms, and why do so many people agree with it?Decreasedaccuracy at close rangeis another strangemisconception - I know I can hit a target at 10 meters with a rifle just as easily as I can with a pistol, whichis generally less accurate than a rifle anyway. Any idea where this started? Was it just from the other ranged professions?
fromanxxxx
Tue Nov 16, 2004 12:02 am
#2
I think the problem is that, in real life, rifles are better than pistols in almost every instance. I really dont think any solider would pick a sidearm over a rifle, and this leads to a problem. How does one balance two classes, if one of them is inherently superior to the other?
-Ockam
Ackehece
Tue Nov 16, 2004 12:20 am
#3
fromanxxxx wrote:
I think the problem is that, in real life, rifles are better than pistols in almost every instance. I really dont think any solider would pick a sidearm over a rifle, and this leads to a problem. How does one balance two classes, if one of them is inherently superior to the other?
-Ockam
this would be the reason some people think rifles should be slower. I don't agree but we shall see what happens with the Cu/R/B
Gooney
Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:32 am
#4
BrerLapin wrote:
The abbreviatated answer is the initial design team were idiots.
The long answer by abstraction one can assume that a energy weapon doing more damage requires more charging/longer cooling/generally longer techiness than that of a lower powered pistol format weapon.
That makes no sense logically of course but never mind
If ya think thats a stretch consider this.
Why is a rifle called a rifle? Because the barrel has riflings.
A laser "rifle" has no rifling...
A laser "rifle" would have an effective muzzle velocity of ...the speed of light. Meaning that it would be impossible to miss if you locked on target...every trigger pull would mean an instantenous hit or miss depending upon your barrel orientation. No recoil, unless for some reason your using a charge to effect the energy burst.
Its sci-fi, abstraction isnt only necessary its implicit...simply because these weapons dont exist.
Any way you slice it though a longer weapon takes a longer time to fire. Well not fire but to actually hit.
The dev teams werent idiots by any stretch of the imagination in this respect.
There is no way logically that you can argue that a rifle should have the same speed as either a pistol or carbine. It just makes no sense, no matter how you slice it a longer weapon takes longer to aim.
-Gooney
BrerLapin
Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:13 am
#5
¬.¬ Looking at realworld examples youll notice that all automatic weapons can fire at the same baseline of 600 rpm (Its a functional standard) this is because its agreed. The MG-34/42 & AN92 can fire much faster to better effect for specific roles. The difference between SA, Auto, etc isnt applicable to DEW's so ....
We have an equal ROF for all weapons all things being equal.
Saying it takes longer to aim a rifle is redundant, because after the first shot your lined up & can fire repetively from a stabler base assuming you are suffering recoil an unlikely event as your firing a DEW.
So what your actually saying is it takes longer to line up the first shot & tbh thats dependant on range. It takes longer to aim a pistol at distant target than a rifle, which would affect the ROF (now dependant on the abstract aiming principle) significantly.
If all ROF's were equal & ammunition infinite youd be better holding down the fire button & lining up the target as thers no need to worry about ballistic effects. As for pistols this actually eliminates the rifles advantage. As a Pistoleer could guide his shots onto the target more effectively at range than aiming across the smaller line up zone of his sights (Explaining the scope on Hans DL-44 
)
)However since this is a game that uses RPG mechanisms to emulate real world effects, they should have put some thought into the mechanism dictating aiming, ROF, accuracy of the weapon & user & enviromental effects beyond the rather limited Range, Stance, Special,Weapon Spd & Target Ranged Defence.
Therefore their idiots.
Dont even get me started on the 11 hit locations system in a damage system comprising of Health Action & Mind ¬.¬
Gooney
Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:26 am
#6
BrerLapin wrote:
¬.¬ Looking at realworld examples youll notice that all automatic weapons can fire at the same baseline of 600 rpm (Its a functional standard) this is because its agreed. The MG-34/42 & AN92 can fire much faster to better effect for specific roles. The difference between SA, Auto, etc isnt applicable to DEW's so ....
We have an equal ROF for all weapons all things being equal.
Saying it takes longer to aim a rifle is redundant, because after the first shot your lined up & can fire repetively from a stabler base assuming you are suffering recoil an unlikely event as your firing a DEW.
So what your actually saying is it takes longer to line up the first shot & tbh thats dependant on range. It takes longer to aim a pistol at distant target than a rifle, which would affect the ROF (now dependant on the abstract aiming principle) significantly.
If all ROF's were equal & ammunition infinite youd be better holding down the fire button & lining up the target as thers no need to worry about ballistic effects. As for pistols this actually eliminates the rifles advantage. As a Pistoleer could guide his shots onto the target more effectively at range than aiming across the smaller line up zone of his sights (Explaining the scope on Hans DL-44
However since this is a game that uses RPG mechanisms to emulate real world effects, they should have put some thought into the mechanism dictating aiming, ROF, accuracy of the weapon & user & enviromental effects beyond the rather limited Range, Stance, Special,Weapon Spd & Target Ranged Defence.
Therefore their idiots.
Dont even get me started on the 11 hit locations system in a damage system comprising of Health Action & Mind ¬.¬
Look man, ROF has nothing to do with Weapon Speed in this instance.
I said it once Ill say it again. Its an abstraction of native weapon speed + aim time...its a simulation. Aim time meaning the shortest time you need to hit a target at your weapons optimal (NOT POSSIBLE) range.
And dont try to tell me that a 30.06 has the same ROF as an M16, it doesnt and it cant.Real world weapons have very specific uses. Theres a reason Police carry 9mm pistols and not M16's.
AIM time has everything to do with it if your setting up a balanced gaming system.
So real world examples not withstanding a general "Rifle" will have a slower weapon speed than a general "Pistol", NOT because you can physically send ordinance down the barrel faster in either one, thats only part of the equation. The ability to actually hit something at that ROF is the most important aspect.
A pistol is faster because you dont need to aim for 2 or 3 seconds when the target is 15m away. With a rifle you can not shoot that fast and still realiably hit your target (at 100m+ or whatever game distance)...unless you are somehow superhuman or an elite sniper. Even then they dont shoot that fast.
It is simply illogical that a rifle would have the same INGAME speed as a pistol.
-Gooney
BrerLapin
Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:39 am
#7
Youve missed the point.
The initial aiming time is your arguement, mine is that of the weapons speed has a fixed rate determined by the mechanism & the .30-.06 can be fired at the same rate as any other bullet given the correct chambering.
Shame were not discussing projectile weapons though we are discussing DEW's (Direct Energy Weapons). So yes to a degree your right the form of the pistol allows for quicker targetting at close range just as the rifle form allows for quicker targetting at long range.
Message Edited by BrerLapin on 11-16-2004 02:41 AM
Gooney
Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:48 am
#8
BrerLapin wrote:
Youve missed the point.
The initial aiming time is your arguement, mine is that of the weapons speed has a fixed rate determined by the mechanism & the .30-.06 can be fired at the same rate as any other bullet given the correct chambering.
Initial aiming time is most certainly NOT my argument.
Im talking about every single shot. As a game mechanic the Weapon Speed is used to determin your DPS. The DPS of all 3 elites should be more or less equal, any differences should be easily attributed to weapon quality or choice of damage type.
The biggest beef most folks have with rifleman profession is that due to the mechanics of the present game system thier weapon speed can easily rival that of any pistoleer or carbineer. Which inturn means that Rifleman DPS are way way higher in relation to the other two professions than they should be.
What you are arguing for is the continuance of a broken mechanic.
Unless... your trying to argue that Rifles in real life have higher rates of fire than real life pistols or carbines(assault rifles). Even there they dont. A rifle in real life has a 8-12 shot magazine on the civilian side, bit more on the military side, even semi-automatic is limited in speed to the trigger press. In that case, ya ok pistols and rifles are more or less equal ROF, but assault rifles often have burst or automatic. Either way has no bearing on the discussion of rifle speed in game.
-Gooney
BrerLapin
Tue Nov 16, 2004 5:28 am
#9
a) There are no civilian DEWs that I know of, apart from phased plasma rifles in a 40 watt range 
b) A carbine is a rifle with a short barrel, its not an assualt rifle as an assualt rifle is an automatic rifle. Whereas a carbine can be any feed mechanism. BTW in this century a large selecetion of brands have burstfiring pistols, & pistol sized SMGs.
c) ¬.¬ Gee the systems broken so that would mean the devs are idiots then ?
Given the 65m range & the unassisted rate of 10m a second, ranged combat regardless of weapon form, is borked in SWG.
Balance could easily be introduced by using the intended roles of the weapon forms correctly & dispensing with weapon speed assuming that all guns can fire once per second. Rifles should be able to hit locations representing the ability of the higher accuracy rifle to deliver precision strikes. Carbines should be effective on the move & deliver suppressive posture changing attacks, representing the shotgun/burst suppressive abilities.. Pistols should excel at delivering bulk damage rapidly & at close range.
This doesnt happen in SWG sadly.
Message Edited by BrerLapin on 11-16-2004 04:32 AM
lisasdarren
Tue Nov 16, 2004 6:08 am
#10
Reardo wrote:
I've thought of this several times, just never got around to posting anything about it, but where did the idea of rifles being slow come from? Rifles are in reality relatively faster than a pistol and there is no difference in speed between pulling a trigger on a pistol as opposed to a rifle. Generally speaking, heavy weapons are more often than not faster than pistol sidearms with a few exceptions. So, has this misconception come from a gaggle of individuals who have no experience with real firearms, and why do so many people agree with it?Decreasedaccuracy at close rangeis another strangemisconception - I know I can hit a target at 10 meters with a rifle just as easily as I can with a pistol, whichis generally less accurate than a rifle anyway. Any idea where this started? Was it just from the other ranged professions?
There are a number of possible reasons behind this, the first error of thought however is comparing anything in Star Wars or SWG to modern weapons.
Lucas based SW around WWII dogfighting and Samurai / Wild West sword and gunfighting, thus if you want to do weapon speed comparisons to RL weapons it needs to be comparisons to 100 year oldplus weapons. Pistols were faster, rifles were mostly single shot, bolt action weapons. Pistols were 6 shooters where gunfighters had the ability to fire all 6 shots in rapid succession.
The other option is to consider the way these energy weapons function, generally the more damage you want to do the more energy you need, the bigger your capacitor needs to be and the longer it will take to recharge. Thus rifles will do more damage per shot than pistols but take longer to charge up between shots.
Either way you get rifles slower than pistols, and though this is not the case in the modern world, SW is not in the modern world it is a Long time ago in a place far far away, it is a sci-fi amalgamamtion of Samurai, Wild West and WWII, along with other historic and mythological settings / stories.
Gooney
Tue Nov 16, 2004 6:41 am
#11
BrerLapin wrote:
a) There are no civilian DEWs that I know of, apart from phased plasma rifles in a 40 watt range
b) A carbine is a rifle with a short barrel, its not an assualt rifle as an assualt rifle is an automatic rifle. Whereas a carbine can be any feed mechanism. BTW in this century a large selecetion of brands have burstfiring pistols, & pistol sized SMGs.
c) ¬.¬ Gee the systems broken so that would mean the devs are idiots then ?
Given the 65m range & the unassisted rate of 10m a second, ranged combat regardless of weapon form, is borked in SWG.
Balance could easily be introduced by using the intended roles of the weapon forms correctly & dispensing with weapon speed assuming that all guns can fire once per second. Rifles should be able to hit locations representing the ability of the higher accuracy rifle to deliver precision strikes. Carbines should be effective on the move & deliver suppressive posture changing attacks, representing the shotgun/burst suppressive abilities.. Pistols should excel at delivering bulk damage rapidly & at close range.
This doesnt happen in SWG sadly.
Message Edited by BrerLapin on 11-16-2004 04:32 AM
Carbines... the description as a rifle with a short barrel describes all sorts of weapons. Carbine in modern english is a general term for a group of weapons. Thats not very specific. In Napoleanic times it was used to describe the weapons used by cavalry, short rifles, famous weapons like the Winchester lever action 30-30. Really though by the dictionary any of the modern assault rifles can be classified as carbines. Most are not automatic or at least not fully automatic weapons, most in fact are semi-automatic switchable to burst.
Carbine in SWG is a class of weaponry with its own profession. Carbines in SWG are assault rifles, even sporting such specials as FullAutoSingle1 and 2and Scattershot1, BurstShot1 and 2, FullAutoArea1 and 2.
The idea behind them is assault rifles, in the modern sense.
ShortRange, HighSpeed, LowDamgage--> Pistols
Medium range, Medium speed, Medium Damage -->Carbines
Long Range, Low Speed, High Damage --> Rifles
Anyhow if it actually worked like this there would be balance. Actually the only time that it becomes blatently unfair nowadays is in PvP.
Your idea about the firing once per second again makes no sense. It doesnt make sense for a rifleman to shoot once every second...no matter how ya slice it or how you explain it. The weapon speed currently in game as a attribute is good, how its implemented is not good.
Anyway the first post asked how the devs came up with rifles being slow...I feel like Ive answered it as well as I can.
Your assertion that the Devs are idiots, and the reasons you give for it are weak, not well argued and unsupportable. Not to mention un-necessary, we might not agree with all they do but it is pretty un-necessary to resort to name calling.
-Gooney
Ackehece
Tue Nov 16, 2004 8:08 am
#12
Gooney wrote:
BrerLapin wrote:
¬.¬ Looking at realworld examples youll notice that all automatic weapons can fire at the same baseline of 600 rpm (Its a functional standard) this is because its agreed. The MG-34/42 & AN92 can fire much faster to better effect for specific roles. The difference between SA, Auto, etc isnt applicable to DEW's so ....
We have an equal ROF for all weapons all things being equal.
Saying it takes longer to aim a rifle is redundant, because after the first shot your lined up & can fire repetively from a stabler base assuming you are suffering recoil an unlikely event as your firing a DEW.
So what your actually saying is it takes longer to line up the first shot & tbh thats dependant on range. It takes longer to aim a pistol at distant target than a rifle, which would affect the ROF (now dependant on the abstract aiming principle) significantly.
If all ROF's were equal & ammunition infinite youd be better holding down the fire button & lining up the target as thers no need to worry about ballistic effects. As for pistols this actually eliminates the rifles advantage. As a Pistoleer could guide his shots onto the target more effectively at range than aiming across the smaller line up zone of his sights (Explaining the scope on Hans DL-44
However since this is a game that uses RPG mechanisms to emulate real world effects, they should have put some thought into the mechanism dictating aiming, ROF, accuracy of the weapon & user & enviromental effects beyond the rather limited Range, Stance, Special,Weapon Spd & Target Ranged Defence.
Therefore their idiots.
Dont even get me started on the 11 hit locations system in a damage system comprising of Health Action & Mind ¬.¬
Look man, ROF has nothing to do with Weapon Speed in this instance.
I said it once Ill say it again. Its an abstraction of native weapon speed + aim time...its a simulation. Aim time meaning the shortest time you need to hit a target at your weapons optimal (NOT POSSIBLE) range.
And dont try to tell me that a 30.06 has the same ROF as an M16, it doesnt and it cant.Real world weapons have very specific uses. Theres a reason Police carry 9mm pistols and not M16's.
depends on where you live in the world
AIM time has everything to do with it if your setting up a balanced gaming system.
So real world examples not withstanding a general "Rifle" will have a slower weapon speed than a general "Pistol", NOT because you can physically send ordinance down the barrel faster in either one, thats only part of the equation. The ability to actually hit something at that ROF is the most important aspect.
do you know what trap shooting is?
A pistol is faster because you dont need to aim for 2 or 3 seconds when the target is 15m away. With a rifle you can not shoot that fast and still realiably hit your target (at 100m+ or whatever game distance)...unless you are somehow superhuman or an elite sniper. Even then they dont shoot that fast.
in trap shooting you react - you don't aim and the best in the world can do it almost instantly
It is simply illogical that a rifle would have the same INGAME speed as a pistol.
the only reason a pistol would be faster in game is to even out the DPS - but since DPS is not the standard at which the game will be balanced I am guessing speed will be interesting
-Gooney
Ackehece
Tue Nov 16, 2004 8:11 am
#13
Gooney wrote:
BrerLapin wrote:
a) There are no civilian DEWs that I know of, apart from phased plasma rifles in a 40 watt range
b) A carbine is a rifle with a short barrel, its not an assualt rifle as an assualt rifle is an automatic rifle. Whereas a carbine can be any feed mechanism. BTW in this century a large selecetion of brands have burstfiring pistols, & pistol sized SMGs.
c) ¬.¬ Gee the systems broken so that would mean the devs are idiots then ?
Given the 65m range & the unassisted rate of 10m a second, ranged combat regardless of weapon form, is borked in SWG.
Balance could easily be introduced by using the intended roles of the weapon forms correctly & dispensing with weapon speed assuming that all guns can fire once per second. Rifles should be able to hit locations representing the ability of the higher accuracy rifle to deliver precision strikes. Carbines should be effective on the move & deliver suppressive posture changing attacks, representing the shotgun/burst suppressive abilities.. Pistols should excel at delivering bulk damage rapidly & at close range.
This doesnt happen in SWG sadly.
Message Edited by BrerLapin on 11-16-2004 04:32 AM
Carbines... the description as a rifle with a short barrel describes all sorts of weapons. Carbine in modern english is a general term for a group of weapons. Thats not very specific. In Napoleanic times it was used to describe the weapons used by cavalry, short rifles, famous weapons like the Winchester lever action 30-30. Really though by the dictionary any of the modern assault rifles can be classified as carbines. Most are not automatic or at least not fully automatic weapons, most in fact are semi-automatic switchable to burst.
Carbine in SWG is a class of weaponry with its own profession. Carbines in SWG are assault rifles, even sporting such specials as FullAutoSingle1 and 2and Scattershot1, BurstShot1 and 2, FullAutoArea1 and 2.
The idea behind them is assault rifles, in the modern sense.
ShortRange, HighSpeed, LowDamgage--> Pistols
Medium range, Medium speed, Medium Damage -->Carbines
Long Range, Low Speed, High Damage --> Rifles
Anyhow if it actually worked like this there would be balance. Actually the only time that it becomes blatently unfair nowadays is in PvP.
Your idea about the firing once per second again makes no sense. It doesnt make sense for a rifleman to shoot once every second...no matter how ya slice it or how you explain it. The weapon speed currently in game as a attribute is good, how its implemented is not good.
Anyway the first post asked how the devs came up with rifles being slow...I feel like Ive answered it as well as I can.
Your assertion that the Devs are idiots, and the reasons you give for it are weak, not well argued and unsupportable. Not to mention un-necessary, we might not agree with all they do but it is pretty un-necessary to resort to name calling.
-Gooney
All I will say is that you should forgot all you know about how combat works - The Cu/R/B will change everything.
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