Rifleman Archive
Thread: MELEE Defence from Pistols (Worth the points?)
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meninus
Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:47 am
#1
Until recently I was master rifles/master cm. In PvP I spent lots of time dizzy/kd dead me. So I decided to get a little doc - MR/CM 4004/Doc 2020. Loads better but still couldnt use my CM skills and get away clean. So I have dropped CM and am now MR/Doc 2020/Pistoleer 0044. (Rest of points used in FS)
My Question is about the 0004 column in pistols - it give pistol speed and 40 melee defence.
Is this extra melee defence worth the points?
Anyone know exactly how melee defence works?
Is there a better use of these skill points.
Btw - mostly I am PvE but would like to do more PvP if I could survive more than 50% of time.
Iob
Message Edited by meninus on 11-23-2004 04:48 AM
Message Edited by meninus on 11-24-2004 10:33 AM
Kakabus
Tue Nov 23, 2004 7:27 am
#2
Melee Def is a mod that reduces your chance of being hit by a melee weapon. IMO all the Def Mods are a waste since Mitigation is the only thing that really matters and some even say that doesnt work. If you are going to stack a def mod....Def vs. KD would be the one I would pick, but you still get KD'd and still need KD food...
Issik
Wed Nov 24, 2004 4:04 am
#4
I'd say no, because holding the rifle effectively nullifues your the gained melee D.
Pick up more Doc or CM.
Pick up more Doc or CM.
Cpl_Fisher
Wed Nov 24, 2004 7:28 am
#5
Issik wrote:
I'd say no, because holding the rifle effectively nullifues your the gained melee D.
Pick up more Doc or CM.
sad but true. Iwould go for the state defense with pistol 0/0/4/0 yea, they are not great, but with KD food and ithorian mist, you have a chance.
meninus
Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:39 am
#6
Thanks for the comments - what I dont understand is there is only one melee defence - I get 40 from rifles and 40 from pistols - they add togther. If holding a rifle interferes with this then why give riflemen melee defence?
Geddeo
Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:18 pm
#7
meninus wrote:Thanks for the comments - what I dont understand is there is only one melee defence - I get 40 from rifles and 40 from pistols - they add togther. If holding a rifle interferes with this then why give riflemen melee defence?
That is an old argument that you can read about in the below post if you want. Sataudi makes some really good points on why to keep it.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=rifleman&message.id=56115&highlight=#M56115
The original reason for the debate of getting rid of the +40 melee was to use it as a bargaining chip and stop the nerf cries. As it stands now, I don't see many people complaining that rifleman is overpowered anymore and the nerf cries stopped so why even think about getting rid of it. Every little bit helps
.
Geddeo
Wed Nov 24, 2004 2:37 pm
#8
Perhaps I'm not the best one to explain this since I have been away for 3 months, but I will give it a try and some of the more qualified can correct any mistakes I make.
In the beginning there was the dreaded 2.5x dmg modifier for riflemen. This worked very simply by making any melee (or I think any kinetic) dmg do 2.5x the normal dmg. This means if a creature would hit a person holding a carbine for 1000 dmg, that same person holding a rifle would take 2500 dmg instead. After a time the devs saw this as unbalanced and decided to take this modifier away.
They came up with a new modifier. Last time I checked no one knew value of this modifier, but instead of increasing the dmg an opponent does to us while we are holding rifles, it modifies the accuracy of the enemy attacking us by some multiplier (at least in theory, Volsted left us and he was our numbers guy).
This is where the argument that the 40 melee defence was worthless came about. High end pve creatures and melee PVP characters have such high accuracy that even if it was multiplied by a small number such as 1.5, they would be hitting us most of the time. As an example, I have over 125 melee defence, but when my tkm friend duels me he will almost never miss (no hard numbers here, just observations).
Hope that helps
In the beginning there was the dreaded 2.5x dmg modifier for riflemen. This worked very simply by making any melee (or I think any kinetic) dmg do 2.5x the normal dmg. This means if a creature would hit a person holding a carbine for 1000 dmg, that same person holding a rifle would take 2500 dmg instead. After a time the devs saw this as unbalanced and decided to take this modifier away
.They came up with a new modifier. Last time I checked no one knew value of this modifier, but instead of increasing the dmg an opponent does to us while we are holding rifles, it modifies the accuracy of the enemy attacking us by some multiplier (at least in theory, Volsted left us and he was our numbers guy).
This is where the argument that the 40 melee defence was worthless came about. High end pve creatures and melee PVP characters have such high accuracy that even if it was multiplied by a small number such as 1.5, they would be hitting us most of the time. As an example, I have over 125 melee defence, but when my tkm friend duels me he will almost never miss (no hard numbers here, just observations).
Hope that helps
meninus
Wed Nov 24, 2004 3:27 pm
#9
yes it helps.
I did some tests today - 2 mins standing being thumped by a TKA
With rifle
Without rifle
With pistol
He hit almost every time - I blocked once I think - his average damage was 400 - there was no difference in any of the three test. This fits well with the things you mention.
And so - back to the original question - to have that coulmn of melee defence or not?
Still checking...
meninus
Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:20 am
#10
Many thanks for that reply - an informative thread and I am very grateful.
However I`m still not sure how the to-hit modifier they mention works against a melee defence that is double the original given to rifles. If the modifieralmost negates melee given to rifles (as was suggested in the thread you mention) would I not end up with melee given to pistols as an extra bonus?
Issik
Fri Nov 26, 2004 1:21 am
#11
Given that test, I'd say scrap it and grab more doc or CM.
Your group mates will thank you for the Doc, or your enemies will hate you for the CM
If you want my advice, drop the extra pistols line and go 4030 Doc. You'll never look back. Who needs state defenses when you can cure EVERYTHING off you?? Just get some specially mae poison/disease cures, and you'll be a wrecking machine.
Your group mates will thank you for the Doc, or your enemies will hate you for the CM
If you want my advice, drop the extra pistols line and go 4030 Doc. You'll never look back. Who needs state defenses when you can cure EVERYTHING off you?? Just get some specially mae poison/disease cures, and you'll be a wrecking machine.
Message Edited by Issik on 11-25-2004 12:23 PM
meishac
Sun Nov 28, 2004 2:45 pm
#12
sry, but the test you guys have been talking about dont prove anything. why? because you said you did the test againts a tka freind. Tka masters dont tend to miss against anything at all. They have insane accuracy at master, like 250 i think. even if there wasnt a to hit modiier the tkm would still hit you about every time. you need to perform the tet against another melee profession that doesnt have the insane accuracy like tka does. i think the extra 40 melee defense may well be worth it, i definatly think the state defenses are worth it. doc may be able to cure the states, but that can take alot of time, especially if the person is smart and applies alot of states and reapplies them when they see you are a doc.
but if your gonna claim that melee defense doesnt really matter when holding a rifle, you need to perform better test to back it up
Geddeo
Mon Nov 29, 2004 3:35 pm
#13
Geddeo wrote:
As an example, I have over 125 melee defence, but when my tkm friend duels me he will almost never miss (no hard numbers here, just observations).
Hope that helps
Hehe, this was a horrible example, sorry meshac. TKM do have way too much accuracy to get any good numbers from. My friend also hits me almost the whole time when I'm holding a pike unless I use COB. For a more accurate test you would need to use an opponent with less accuracy like a novice pike or novice swordsman. You will also need to sift through tons of numbers, which is why I won't do it, I'm lazy. Here is an example of a test that might give you some idea if the defense of a rifleman will help.
Form a general idea of what you expect to see, and then test it to the extreme. In this case you would expect to see that a novice pikeman will hit less often against a character with more melee defense than a character with 0, also that a character holding a rifle will get hit more often than that same character without a rifle in hand.
First you need a control, like a character with 0 melee defense and hit them 100 times with a novice pikeman. Find out how many times you miss. Then equip a rifle with that same character and repeat the test. Then move to a rifleman with just the +40 defense and repeat the test (once with rifle, once without). Next I would repeat once again with a player that is maxed on melee defense +125. Hit her 100 times when she has no weapon and again when she is holding a rifle.
After you have all the data you can compare it to the results you expected and find if you were right or completely wrong. Volsted used to do this kind of detailed research and it boggled my mind how he did not go insane, but all the riflemen and women appreciated his devotion. Until someone does this or a similar test we are all just guessing how our modifier works or even if it does. I don't think many of us care that much about it, but if you need hard answers, this is the only way I can see to get them.
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