Rifleman Archive

Message Edited by Uthyr on 08-17-2005 01:00 PM

Message Edited by Uthyr on 08-18-2005 03:42 PM

Message Edited by Uthyr on 08-20-2005 01:03 PM

if the 3rd rifle does energy that would be my pick, the 2nd rifle is bugged aand is unuseable, and appears they fixed the bug so no more of the bugged crafting items will drop (only ones that wrok right will drop, i think) but they wont be fixing any rifles the bugged stuff was used in or fix any of the bugged components that dropped

so with that said, the would rank the best one as #3, as it has the highest min damage and lowest sac, second best would #1, only becuase #2 is bugged and wont be fixed

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Holbrook wrote:

the 2nd rifle is bugged aand is unuseable,

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Thanks for your response RebRifle, but I'm curious to know why you think that (I'm not saying you're wrong, mind you). Thanks to you too, Holbrook.

I've been doing some field testing of all three rifles tonight and am starting to get a pretty good idea for which of the three does the most actual DPS against level 80+ PvE mobs (at least against level 82 bounter hunter marks). I'll continue the testing tomorrow and get a better sample size, but I think some of you may be surprised by the answer.

Please keep the opinions coming, and keep in mind that I am looking for an opinion based on my playing style, not whatever your own happens to be, and I am interested in hearing the reasoning behind your answer. SAC is not the most important consideration for me (I almost never run out of action with any of these rifles), so I wouldn't weigh that stat very heavily in your evaluation.

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Holbrook wrote:

becuase any rifle that doesnt is a LD-1 or Fallan Hyper-Rifle and does any but energy damage is bugged an only does 1pt of damage per shot, which is why you arent suppose to use any scoopes or casings that were looted before pup22 went to live, have you use the rifle since 22 went live?

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Yes, I have used the rifle post- Publish 22 (I used it last night in my testing), and believe me, it is doing far more than 1 point of damage per shot. It is at least comparable to the other two rifles, and worth every penny that I paid for it, though I still need to complete my testing to get the actual numbers. The damage type may be listed as "Blast" on the weapon properties window, but it's pretty clear that it is actually doing energy damage. With that in mind, if anybody wants to revise their earlier rankings, please feel free. I'll post my own results when I'm done.

Thanks for the continuing discussion, Holbrook!

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DrJo wrote:

Wow- you definitly did some research here. I say throw the ADK on #2 or #3. Then, since my advice is so money, why not giveme a great deal on the left over rifles?

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As for the leftover rifles, I can't bear to part with them until I am sure I am correct! I still need to do some testing with somehigher-level mobs one of these days. The problem with testing these rifles on things like krayts is that even when I am grouped, I draw so much hate from the mobs that I can't just sit back and shoot away without being attacked, and then I have to spend to much effort on avoidance, so it's too hard to get good data. If anybody on Naritus wants to be a guinea pig and let me shoot them repeatedly without shooting me back, that would be helpful!

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Uthyr wrote:

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DrJo wrote:

Wow- you definitly did some research here. I say throw the ADK on #2 or #3. Then, since my advice is so money, why not giveme a great deal on the left over rifles?

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I'd say I've shown that #3 is definitely the worst of the group to throw an ADK on. I am considering putting one on #1 now, actually, but I still can't get the thought out of my head that #2 should have the highest DPSof the group, despite my findings.

As for the leftover rifles, I can't bear to part with them until I am sure I am correct! I still need to do some testing with somehigher-level mobs one of these days. The problem with testing these rifles on things like krayts is that even when I am grouped, I draw so much hate from the mobs that I can't just sit back and shoot away without being attacked, and then I have to spend to much effort on avoidance, so it's too hard to get good data. If anybody on Naritus wants to be a guinea pig and let me shoot them repeatedly without shooting me back, that would be helpful!

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As you have been told in previous posts, rifle number 3 with the lowest SAC by a wide margin and the highest minimum damage is clearly the winner.

By only using the most basic shots trying to conserve SAC you are intentionally biasing the results. Having a lower SAC allows you to do more damage faster by using more high damage/high SAC specials. Take advantage of that. (for crying out loud always use food or drink that boosts action regen for the same reason.....)

Having a higher minimum damage is better because of how accuracy and defense work now, with damage being pushed towards minimum with the greater disparity between your accuracy and your targets defense. This works in PvE and PvP.

By having a rifle with low built in SAC and using food and drink you can run a damage pup on the weapon for a greatly increased damage, and since it will be ADK you are not worried by the faster decay caused by pups. (using your shots of ranged and placed with the 87 SAC rifle and a damage pup would be more damage than a 71 SAC puped one without a damage pup)

By your own statement your action was nearly always full.... what this tells me is that you are not using all your potential. You cannot be incapped by low action like in the past so keeping it full is of no use. You need to be able to find a happy medium of doing the most damage and keeping the action from running completely dry. Low SAC and action regen foods/drinks/buffs having proven over and over again to be the way to go, hence the switch from max damage experimented weapons to ones max SAC experimented or a nice split between the two.

It almost sounds like you are trying to talk yourself into using a high SAC weapon, and that you want some encouragement. I can't give you any. High SAC = bad. Period

Number 3 is cleary the best choice to put an ADK on. Its more Unique and rare and has the best stats that really matter.

Message Edited by TapVallian on 08-18-2005 03:28 PM

I am not trying to "talk myself into" anything, TapVallian. I was simply reporting the results of my field trials, which are a good representation of my playing style, not some fabrication designed to bias the results. I'll remind you that I was asking which rifle people think would be best for my playing style, not which weapon is best in all situations. The types of mobs that I was hunting for my experiments are not atypical for me, so I wasn't deliberately choosing weak mobs to prove my point. I run a lot of NPC bounty hunter missions, and these are exactly the kind of mobs that I encounter. When I go on group hunting missions on Dantooine, these are also just the level of mobs that I encounter. I rarely hunt krayts, never hunt Jedi, and rarely have any PvP fights--these kinds of activities simply don't interest me. If my choice of a rifle is the best for my playing style, then it is the weapon that deserves an ADK for me. Incidentally, alternating Ranged and Placed shots is not something that I artificially constructed for the purposes of this experiment--it is how I have been fighting lately (since well before my experiments), and it works.I almost always kill my target, and I almost never get incapped (I think I've been slain just once in the past 2 months or so), so it is definitely effective. Just just because I have been "told" by more than one person that rifle #3 is the best for me, in their opinion,does not necessarily make it so. I'm only interested in hard data, not theories (well, I am interested in theories--I just put more stock into hard data)

Now, as for not using my full potential for my use of ranged and placed shots, I don't know how closely you have been following this forum lately, but it has been demostrated pretty definitively, by hard field data (at least to my satisfaction) and by more than one person, that you can do more damage over time by alternating these two specials than by alternating more "advanced" specials that only serve to drain your action. It's a poor design that it should work that way, but that's apparently how it is. If you haven't seen these data, let me know and I'll be glad to post links for you. I used to alternate Advanced Critical Shot and Head Shot as my main damage-dealing specials, but I am a convert. This sentence of yours has been shown to be false, at least the way you worded it:

Having a lower SAC allows you to do more damage faster by using more high damage/high SAC specials.

If you have any data to the contrary (showing that alternating more advanced specials deals more actual damage over time), or can point me to a thread where this was proven, I would be very happy to look it over objectively, and I am not averse to the possibility of having somebody attempt to change my mind, but I will not accept anything less than actual field data to prove it to me. It's going to be hard to convince me that just because my action stays high, then I cannot possibly be doing maximal damage with a given weapon. That may be the way it would work if this game were functioning perfectly as designed, but the fact is that it's not.

As for your statement that having a higher minimum damage is better, I am willing to accept that.... but my results show that it is not necessarily the case, and it is also an oversimplification--just one of many factors to consider.Furthermore, the difference in minimum damage between rifles #1 and #3 is negligible,particularly considering the difference in actual DPS due to the much higher speed of rifle #1. All else being equal, I agree completely that a low-SAC weapon is better than a higher-SAC weapon, but it's only one of several considerations.

Finally, your suggestion to use damage PuP's on a low-SAC weapon is something that I have considered and intend to do some testing on, but again, my use of SAC powerups works very well for me, and I almost always outdamage all my other group members. Low SAC and high DPS are two approaches to addressing the same issue with PuPs, and I don't at this moment feel that one approach has any more merit than the other in all cases--but again I am willing to test it.

I do appreciate the discussion, Tap, and would be happy to debate it further. Despite my difference of opinions, I do respect your perspective.

Didn't mean to offend you if I did. I guess if all you want is what is best for your play style you probably shouldn't be soliciting other peoples opinions. No one can tell exactly what would be best for you except you, and it sounds like you are capable of doing your own research and making our own choices.

My answer was based on the reading I do on several forums, not just this one, and the fact that my playstyle changes over time. I like to try different things, so an ADKed weapon would either need to be cheap and destroyable or versatile for when my style changes.

I also would never put an ADK on a laser rifle... they are just too common and plain for my taste. This is a game I play to have fun and part of the fun is using less common and neat looking weapons. The only rifle at this point that will be getting an ADK is a Trando rifle soon to be crafted with some 154 damage tissues (the best stack of 4 or more I have atm) and it will be capped for SAC before anything else.

I guess, in the end, I can't make a decision like you want because my playstyle is different and the value of an ADK is more and more all the time so mystandards for using one get higher and higher.

No offense taken, Tap, I find a good debate to be both informative and thought-provoking, and I don't mind opinions to the contrary of my own, and I'm sorry if my reaction seemed like an overreaction. As for soliciting other people's opinions, that's definitely what this thread started out as, because I honestly didn't know which rifle was best for my playing style. Now, after my testing, I have a fairly good idea, but I am trying to figure out why my results came out as they did, because they don't really make complete sense to me given the stats of the weapons. Unfortunately there are just too many variables in this game's mechanics (including unknown bugs) to be able to pin down the way everything works.

Your comment about never wanting to ADK commonplace weapon is well taken. I hate the stamped-metal look of the ALR. The Trando is my second-favorite-looking rifle (behind the Berserker). ADK'ing is more for function for me than for appearance, though the latter is certainly still important. Unfortunately, I've noticed that these Trando rifles are becoming more and more commonplace since they became craftable (at least on my server), and before long I fear they'll just be another rifle to most people's eyes. The LD-1, on the other hand, is something that always draws comments from people I encounter... I've got an ADK on one of those already.