Rifleman Archive
Thread: Rifleman Thoughts [lengthy read]
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Routehero
Thu Sep 04, 2003 9:24 am
#1
Premise: All weapons have a hard cap of 1s.
Rifleman is the most powerful 'Master' combat class, when combined with Master Marksman (something many people neglect). The key is in the 'Rifle Speed' modifier, which can drastically change your rate of fire. The difference of rate of fire at Master Rifleman (Rifle Speed +90) and Master Marksman (Rifle Speed +95) is 50%. I'll elaborate.
Say you have a laser rifle at 5.9 speed.
5.9 * 0.10 = 0.59s delay [actual] with no special moves
5.9 = speed of laser rifle (determined by examining the laser rifle itself)
0.10 = 10% -- the value of your attack speed modifier (Rifle Speed) -- ie, you shoot at 10% the original speed. (receiving a 90% [Rifle Speed +90] discount)
Now let's look at Master Marksman:
5.9 * 0.05 = 0.295s delay [actual] with no special moves.
Marksmen get only an additional Rifle Speed +5; however, the higher your modifier beocmes, the more significant additional bonuses are. At a lower value, the additional bonus isn't as readily noticable. But -50%- increase in speed for 36 skill points (assuming you have Ranged Support Ability Specialist already) is quite impressive.
At this point you're going to ask for screenshots where I show a Master Rifleman/Marksman shooting with specials at 1s intervals. Here they are:
http://routehero.com/images/swg/rifle/rifle1.jpg
http://routehero.com/images/swg/rifle/rifle2.jpg
http://routehero.com/images/swg/rifle/rifle3.JPG
http://routehero.com/images/swg/rifle/rifle4.JPG
Yes, I am a pistoleer. No, I am not trying to divert attention away from pistoleers, and please do not try to use that argument.
I understand that Rifleman have a non-healable bar that they use for specials, but on that same token, they also hit a non-healable bar on opponents. You may argue that 'real Riflemen don't use HeadShot3' -- but in my mind you should. Your ability to take out people will be enhanced. However, even if you only use strafe2, the huge amounts of damage every 1s, albeit on random bars, there's few who can compete -- except perhaps the Crippling Shot available at Carbineer Markmsanship3 -- certainly at this point, no pistol max damage can see such massive damage output. Further, this gives you, for lack of a better term, the ability to 'grief' players. If you incap me on my mind bar, I will be out of commission for X seconds. You can ignore me because no one can heal me to bring me back to the battle. When I naturally revive, one shot will incap me once more, and I will again be out of the battle for 100 seconds. There is no point in doing a DB -- that is essentially a free mind heal. You want to do the most damage possible.
Who can compete?
Compare:
Master Rifleman + Master Marksman (110 skill points leftover) -- Rifle Speed +95
Bounty Hunter Pistol 4 + Pistoleer Special Abilities 4 (56 skill points leftover) [includes Master Marksman as pre-req. of BH] -- Pistol Speed +109
Bounty Hunter Carbine 4 + Carbine Tactics 4 (56 skill points leftover) [includes Master Marksman as pre-req. of BH] -- Carbine Speed +105
I chose these specs as the least expensive [in skill points] way of having a comparable +Speed modifier that a Rifleman can achieve. It is not necessary for a Pistoleer or Carbineer to have so much additional speed, and perhaps with enough forethought you could get the ideal mix to reduce the number of points spent to achieve the optimal value. However, save for a small percentage, I find this to be unlikely. (unless it becomes the flavor of the month; still, much more limiting overall) And should this happen, the number of points necessary will still far outnumber those of a Rifleman/Marksman -- to achieve the goal of 1s delay while using specials.
Seems fair if you judge simply by the numbers. However, it must be taken in to consideration that Rifle is the slowest ranged weapon type, next carbine, next pistol. After a certain point, the additional speed is useless for pistol and carbine users - their styles do not have a multiplier high enough to require the additional speed, so in essence the bonus goes off to never never land. However, unless T21s come out at 8s speed, a Master Marksman/Rifleman is not going to notice the actual delay on the weapon.
The above specs are very few and far between for all three weapon types -- personally I know only one person who has Master Marksman/Rifleman (he's in my guild - Seloun) -- and I honestly don't know of any people who have gone BH Carbine/Carbine Tactics or BH Pistol/Pistol Special Abilities. More likely for the BH combos that people will choose to take the entire profession (carbineer or pistoleer) -- which will then severely limit their available points to pick up further abilities; ie, medic. The easiest of the three to achieve is Marksman/Rifleman, and, it is the most efficient.
I don't want to see anything but the way +Speed modifiers for ALL professions are handled in this game to be looked at, analyzed and changed where necessary. As an exchange, Rifleman should see changes so their specials are either less costly or some other change to 'help' Riflemen out in that regard. In all honesty, I believe the +Speed modifiers should be removed entirely, and the delay of your weapon being the deciding factor for your rate of fire. I have a personal reason for this; as a Smuggler, if you slice speed, chances are you will have disappointed your customer. There's just no point in many cases for a lower speed slice, since the Speed Modifier marginalizes the benefit and no one wants it.
One catch: Marksman/Rifleman only receive their "awesome" (for lack of a better word) speed at Master level. Before Master Rifleman, the Rifleman -does- have quite poor speed. The Rifle Speed +20 you receive at Master Rifleman turns your laser rifle in to a machine gun.
Food for thought. Post your comments, but preferably, constructive criticism only.
Note: The 'formula' used above is not confirmed by SOE, but appears to be accurate and was thought of by Seloun in my guild (AI). However, whether or not you can have >100 in a modifier is not something I know for a fact, but just counting up all the bonuses from the various trees indicates that Carbine and Pistol may go above. I imagine that it would simply be rounded off, since there would be no delay at 100% speed decrease.
Rifleman is the most powerful 'Master' combat class, when combined with Master Marksman (something many people neglect). The key is in the 'Rifle Speed' modifier, which can drastically change your rate of fire. The difference of rate of fire at Master Rifleman (Rifle Speed +90) and Master Marksman (Rifle Speed +95) is 50%. I'll elaborate.
Say you have a laser rifle at 5.9 speed.
5.9 * 0.10 = 0.59s delay [actual] with no special moves
5.9 = speed of laser rifle (determined by examining the laser rifle itself)
0.10 = 10% -- the value of your attack speed modifier (Rifle Speed) -- ie, you shoot at 10% the original speed. (receiving a 90% [Rifle Speed +90] discount)
Now let's look at Master Marksman:
5.9 * 0.05 = 0.295s delay [actual] with no special moves.
Marksmen get only an additional Rifle Speed +5; however, the higher your modifier beocmes, the more significant additional bonuses are. At a lower value, the additional bonus isn't as readily noticable. But -50%- increase in speed for 36 skill points (assuming you have Ranged Support Ability Specialist already) is quite impressive.
At this point you're going to ask for screenshots where I show a Master Rifleman/Marksman shooting with specials at 1s intervals. Here they are:
http://routehero.com/images/swg/rifle/rifle1.jpg
http://routehero.com/images/swg/rifle/rifle2.jpg
http://routehero.com/images/swg/rifle/rifle3.JPG
http://routehero.com/images/swg/rifle/rifle4.JPG
Yes, I am a pistoleer. No, I am not trying to divert attention away from pistoleers, and please do not try to use that argument.
I understand that Rifleman have a non-healable bar that they use for specials, but on that same token, they also hit a non-healable bar on opponents. You may argue that 'real Riflemen don't use HeadShot3' -- but in my mind you should. Your ability to take out people will be enhanced. However, even if you only use strafe2, the huge amounts of damage every 1s, albeit on random bars, there's few who can compete -- except perhaps the Crippling Shot available at Carbineer Markmsanship3 -- certainly at this point, no pistol max damage can see such massive damage output. Further, this gives you, for lack of a better term, the ability to 'grief' players. If you incap me on my mind bar, I will be out of commission for X seconds. You can ignore me because no one can heal me to bring me back to the battle. When I naturally revive, one shot will incap me once more, and I will again be out of the battle for 100 seconds. There is no point in doing a DB -- that is essentially a free mind heal. You want to do the most damage possible.
Who can compete?
Compare:
Master Rifleman + Master Marksman (110 skill points leftover) -- Rifle Speed +95
Bounty Hunter Pistol 4 + Pistoleer Special Abilities 4 (56 skill points leftover) [includes Master Marksman as pre-req. of BH] -- Pistol Speed +109
Bounty Hunter Carbine 4 + Carbine Tactics 4 (56 skill points leftover) [includes Master Marksman as pre-req. of BH] -- Carbine Speed +105
I chose these specs as the least expensive [in skill points] way of having a comparable +Speed modifier that a Rifleman can achieve. It is not necessary for a Pistoleer or Carbineer to have so much additional speed, and perhaps with enough forethought you could get the ideal mix to reduce the number of points spent to achieve the optimal value. However, save for a small percentage, I find this to be unlikely. (unless it becomes the flavor of the month; still, much more limiting overall) And should this happen, the number of points necessary will still far outnumber those of a Rifleman/Marksman -- to achieve the goal of 1s delay while using specials.
Seems fair if you judge simply by the numbers. However, it must be taken in to consideration that Rifle is the slowest ranged weapon type, next carbine, next pistol. After a certain point, the additional speed is useless for pistol and carbine users - their styles do not have a multiplier high enough to require the additional speed, so in essence the bonus goes off to never never land. However, unless T21s come out at 8s speed, a Master Marksman/Rifleman is not going to notice the actual delay on the weapon.
The above specs are very few and far between for all three weapon types -- personally I know only one person who has Master Marksman/Rifleman (he's in my guild - Seloun) -- and I honestly don't know of any people who have gone BH Carbine/Carbine Tactics or BH Pistol/Pistol Special Abilities. More likely for the BH combos that people will choose to take the entire profession (carbineer or pistoleer) -- which will then severely limit their available points to pick up further abilities; ie, medic. The easiest of the three to achieve is Marksman/Rifleman, and, it is the most efficient.
I don't want to see anything but the way +Speed modifiers for ALL professions are handled in this game to be looked at, analyzed and changed where necessary. As an exchange, Rifleman should see changes so their specials are either less costly or some other change to 'help' Riflemen out in that regard. In all honesty, I believe the +Speed modifiers should be removed entirely, and the delay of your weapon being the deciding factor for your rate of fire. I have a personal reason for this; as a Smuggler, if you slice speed, chances are you will have disappointed your customer. There's just no point in many cases for a lower speed slice, since the Speed Modifier marginalizes the benefit and no one wants it.
One catch: Marksman/Rifleman only receive their "awesome" (for lack of a better word) speed at Master level. Before Master Rifleman, the Rifleman -does- have quite poor speed. The Rifle Speed +20 you receive at Master Rifleman turns your laser rifle in to a machine gun.
Food for thought. Post your comments, but preferably, constructive criticism only.
Note: The 'formula' used above is not confirmed by SOE, but appears to be accurate and was thought of by Seloun in my guild (AI). However, whether or not you can have >100 in a modifier is not something I know for a fact, but just counting up all the bonuses from the various trees indicates that Carbine and Pistol may go above. I imagine that it would simply be rounded off, since there would be no delay at 100% speed decrease.
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