Rifleman Archive
Thread: Ah, the new HAM system discussion with Keldarin(Who says negative posts don't get results)
From inconcept forums, us malcontents scared development so much they are now acting. I suggest you got there and check out the discussion from time to time
Keldarin wrote:
Hey guys!
I wanted to pop in here and answer some of your questions.
Just to clarify this new HAM System is part of the Combat Balance. As many of you have noted, while this does address many of the core problems in combat it isn't a full solution in and of itself. In the future we will continue to post details about other parts of the Combat Balance here to see what your feedback is and make sure we cover all the primary issues. For now we'd like to keep the discussion focused on the HAM System. Other issues are equally important but it is much easier to process feedback when it is focused.
Now on to the questions.
Wyyne wrote:
As I recall, this was actually on test for a while. I hope that that indicates it can come in pre-JTL. Mind damage complete dominance in pvp is a serious problem and I hope we don't have to wait until after JTL to fix that.
What was on Test a while back was a very quick tweak to the existing system to prototype some of the ideas for this final system. We originally had hopes that the prototype could be used to get us part of the way to this but it turned out not work quite the way we had hoped.
There were two key problems with that test. The first was that using specials still contributed to accelerating your death. Decreasing the maximum HAM value with a quick recovery gave the "feel" that we were looking for but didn't solve the core problem. The other issue was that using multiple specials stacked in a way that caused the regeneration to increase the more you used your specials. This led to a situation where it was even easier and more beneficial to spam abilities instead of timing them to tactical opportunity.
What we did get out of that test was confidence that we were heading in the right direction. So while we couldn't release even a partial solution we were more convinced that this complete new system was needed. Implementing this new system has been no easy task however. Lots of core systems on the server and client needed to be adjusted which requires programming time. Additionally, while this new system lays the foundation for a more balanced combat experience it alone is not sufficient. Lots of further number tweaks and balancing are required to make it all work, but this is the key that gives us a solid starting point.
Sahnd wrote:
So far as needing to take buffs and heals and what not into account first, that's like putting the wagon before the horse. This is a redesign of the basic HAM system, and as such needs to be designed in a vacuum. Once there is a solid design for the HAM system, then can buffs and heals be discussed, as those all affect the HAM system and take that for granted.
Precisely!
It is important to remember that this is not THE solution, it is only the first and fundamental part of the total solution.
BigSteve03 wrote:
I don't understand how this fixes the first problem? Right now I use special moves, my health lowers, and a mob can kill me with fewer hits. With this change, I'd use specials, my total health would decrease the same (just wouldn't be healable) and a mob can kill me with fewer hits.
Actually the key difference is that using specials does not decrease your health, only your health ability pool would decrease. Using special abilities alone could never get you killed and in fact will never increase your risk of being killed by damage. Using your specials will deplete the ability pools which will limit your tactical options which can result in being killed. The key difference being that taking an action will never get you killed, taking a wrong action will. This is fundamental to a fun and exciting tactical combat experience.
TheRealTK421 wrote:
If high numbers will be "so ineffective as to not be worhwhile", then the latter part of your statement ("rewarding, players for pushing the value higher") seem anti-thetical, si?
Great question. This is one of the great dilemmas designers need to deal with all the time when creating game systems. How do we give continued reward for advancing a stat while simultaneously not allowing the number to go so far out of control that the entire system breaks down.
A common system is to give advancements with diminishing returns. This creates a "soft cap" a value where most players feel that advancing any more in a specific area does not give enough of an advantage as to be worth it. The reality is that further advancement does have continued meaning. Different players will stop at different point in their advancement depending on their priorities and what the consider "good enough". Often times players will come back however and continue advancing an area they had previously given up on once they have taken care of their other advancement priorities.
Groovymarlin wrote:
What determines the size of your special ability pool? Is it the same as everyone else's? Can it be buffed? Does it grow or shrink based on the level you are in your profession? Are there racial differences?
Your Health, Action & Mind ability pools will be equal to your Health, Action & Mind stats. The pool size and method in which it works will be nearly identical to how it currently works with a couple critical exceptions.
The ability pool is detached from damage so that you can never "hurt" yourself by using an ability. The ability pool is reduced from taking damage however so your tactical options decrease as you get increasingly injury exactlythe same asitworks now.
The ability pool will regen quickly so while you may deplete the pool rapidly from powerful ability use it will recover quickly allowing you to use further abilities. This will stop immediate successive spamming of special abilities and add a tactical pacing to combat.
Neige wrote:
My question is about the interaction of the new special bar with wounds and damage. what shall be substracted from it ?
1 - nothing, special bar maximum will always be max HA or M
2 - wounds, special bar maximum will be max-wounds
3 - wounds and damage, special bar maximum will be max-wound-damage
3.
Special Ability points will be impacted by damage and wounds. Each ability pool will never be greater than your current damage level. The only difference is that using ability points does not have an affect in the other direction.
LordPIB wrote:
One more thing TH, are the HAM costs of specials going to be balanced? They should have a logical relationship to the amount of damage they do and any other effects they cause.
Absolutely. Part of what makes this change so difficult to do is that we need to evaluate every single special ability and their HAM cost to make sure that they are balanced correctly in this new system. HAM costs of abilities across the board will need to be adjusted to work correctly.
Treguard wrote:
Would this force specials into 'opening volley' slash 'finishing blow' usage only, to make them count?
This definitely will accentuate the value of opening volleys and finishing blows, but combat will not be limited to such. The best combatant will be the one who knows when to use their abilities hard and fast and when to hold back to keep tactical options open.
Skankin wrote:
Am i to assume that with this new system in place, the need for mind healing to be removed would no longer be there. So mind healing would be put back in?
Putting Mind healing back in is critical to restoring the balance of the game. Details on how mind will be healed and by which professions will be discussed in future "In Concepts".
neinnunb wrote:
The inability to spam (which is great!) will produce another problem if you do not revamp buffs in that nobody will be able to do enough damage to kill others.
Correct. Ability damage values as well as how pools are targeted, damaged and healed all need to be looked at. We will be discussing this part of the Combat Balance in more detail in the future.
Astroidea wrote:
If your special move pool is equal to your health/action/mind pools, wouldn't buffs still give you a huge pool to draw from?
Yes, buffs will still play an important part in this new system. It's mostly a question of balance. Buffs which allow you to use the most powerful ability indefinitely and to shrug off the need for heals is too much. Buffs which open new tactical opportunities, alter the pacing of combat or give more breathing room between heals is what we are aiming for.
Cordellbacination wrote:
I for one would not want to see my business that I have worked hard to set up for months destroyed because people are no longer interested in food now that specials dont require HAMs.
This should definitely not happen. We do need to look at the strength and balance of all buff types but buffs will still keep a purpose and value.
Heltain wrote:
Can you please fix the attribute maxima for the different species too ? Because if you choose your race for playability there's no choice but humans which have a maximum of 1100 for every attribute.
Definitely. Species attribute ranges must be looked at and balanced appropriately.
Camrux wrote:
What impact if any will armor have on this new stat pool?
Armor Encumbrance will still have an impact on all attributes. This will mean a reduced pool size for both damage and ability potential as well as a reduced regeneration rate and increased HAM cost for specials. The altering of the drain and regen formulas will potentially reduce the significance of armor encumbrance. Because of this we are reevaluating every aspect of armor to give a more balance benefit to penalty ratio. Look for a future "In Concept" post discussing further details on armor changes.
dementedpoultry wrote:
All told this sounds pretty good. If I understand it though, it doesn't negate the need to balance the special costs for all weapons. For example, while carbineers may no longer be killing themselves by using specials, they will still be at a disadvantage because they'll drain their special attack pool much faster. There needs to be some balance between "spamability" and the amount of damage done with specials (i.e., a spectrum of high spam/low dmg to low spam/high dmg).
We are looking at the functionality and usefulness of every single combat ability. Not only will HAM costs be adjusted but each ability will be evaluated. Some will need to change, duplicate useless abilities may be removed and new abilities may be added. The end result being a diverse set of useful abilities with different strengths and purposes that allow for an exciting, tactical combat experience. Look for a future "In Concept" post to discuss profession roles and abilities.
Ok, that's all I can answer for the first round. I'll be back next week after our office is fully moved to answer more questions concerning this new HAM System.
OK my conclusions on how the new HAM system will work:
-Each HAM pool will have and ability pool that reflects it's current value. If you take damage not only does your HAM pools shrink but your ability pools value shrinks with it.
-Your ability pool regenerates faster then your HAM pools, but your ability pool will never be greater then your HAM pool. So what I'm saying is this, Say your Mind is maximum 1000 and you take 100 damage, your mind ablitity pool will not regenerate damage faster then your mind pool, it will always be equal to your Mind or lesser then it(if you use specials). The developers still want damage to limit your actions, but they don't want you to damage yourself.(This is hard for me to explain, I hope you get what I'm saying)
-There is a new forumla to determine how your specials drain ability pools. You can no longer get infinate spam by having huge Focus, Quickness, and Strength stats. Atsome point Focus, Quickness, and Strength effectiveness deminishes so that you can not reach 0 HAM usage ever. Infact it may be a point were you can not reach lower then a certain number ever, they did not explain the new system in depth but this is what I draw from "diminishing returns" and "Yes, buffs will still play an important part in this new system. It's mostly a question of balance. Buffs which allow you to use the most powerful ability indefinitely and to shrug off the need for heals is too much."
-Mind will now be healable, but who gets the mind healing abilities and at what level are still to be determined(Hopefully we can convince em to put it into 0-4-0-0 Medic or something lower, don't want the Doc's/CM's to be too powerful)
-Armor is going to be totally readjusted though it still will carry and encumbrance penelty.
There ya go discuss have fun, make fun of my half arsed conjecture
PyscoJuggalo wrote:
OK my conclusions on how the new HAM system will work:
-Each HAM pool will have and ability pool that reflects it's current value. If you take damage not only does your HAM pools shrink but your ability pools value shrinks with it.
My impression was that using specials was the only way to reduce your ability pools, not taking damage. So even though you take 100 Mind damage to your Mind pool of 1000, your ability pool for the Mind bar will not be reduced until you use a special.
PyscoJuggalo wrote:
-Your ability pool regenerates faster then your HAM pools, but your ability pool will never be greater then your HAM pool. So what I'm saying is this, Say your Mind is maximum 1000 and you take 100 damage, your mind ablitity pool will not regenerate damage faster then your mind pool, it will always be equal to your Mind or lesser then it(if you use specials). The developers still want damage to limit your actions, but they don't want you to damage yourself.(This is hard for me to explain, I hope you get what I'm saying)
Huh, I missed that- thanks for pointingit out. The part before what you underlined is of more interest to me though. Seems pretty stupid too(to me), but at least I know what they have in store for us now. *sigh*
PyscoJuggalo wrote:
Ah but this Quote makes me think otherwise:
"3.
Special Ability points will be impacted by damage and wounds. Each ability pool will never be greater than your current damage level. The only difference is that using ability points does not have an affect in the other direction."
The Underlined almost makes me 100% certian.
if you let your health pool (total) slip, your health-based actions should be limited, ie: you shouldn't be able to throw an intimidate or warcry while you're taking your final breaths.
similarly, you shouldn't be able to tumble effectively if a carbineer reduces your action pool (total) with targetted legshots.
if a rifleman is hitting you with headshots, your focus on mind-based actions (whether they be heals or returned headshot fire) should be lowered.
by tying maximum pool damage to decreased special usage, combat will be less focussed on spamming specials, and more the 'tactical' approach the devs have been looking for. by allowing specials to be used on a seperate meter than the total pool, you won't see yourself dropping dead from a flurry of special attacks... you'll just have to save up the special pool to make your hits count.
what concerns me is that buffs and armor encumberance will eventually make or break the system... essentially, where the 'diminishing returns' on secondary usage and regen stats start to cap at an effective level. if a buff can eliminate armor encumberance (as they do currently), then there will be no reason to consider unarmored combat... and a rifleman who eschews a helmet should be able to pull more special shots than one squinting through a peephole and sweating under a heavy composite helm, just as a 'naked' pikeman should be able to leap and spin around with an lance more than a heavily clad brother-at-arms fighting the same enemy.
armor needs to be adjusted to offer more defense at the expense of offensive power... which is the implicit purpose in wearing armor. currently, there is no reason NOT to wear armor (excepting decay) unless unbuffed, and no reason to be unbuffed unless you're looking for a thrill or hunting mobs well below your danger level. finding the balance will be difficult, but with the current armor delays, unequipping armor to use a special and re-equipping it has essentially been eliminated. I'm encouraged by the direction that this is heading, and I hope that it finds itself well implemented.
XaverriJade7 wrote:
PyscoJuggalo wrote:
OK my conclusions on how the new HAM system will work:
-Each HAM pool will have and ability pool that reflects it's current value. If you take damage not only does your HAM pools shrink but your ability pools value shrinks with it.
My impression was that using specials was the only way to reduce your ability pools, not taking damage. So even though you take 100 Mind damage to your Mind pool of 1000, your ability pool for the Mind bar will not be reduced until you use a special.
Ah but this Quote makes me think otherwise:
Special Ability points will be impacted by damage and wounds. Each ability pool will never be greater than your current damage level. The only difference is that using ability points does not have an affect in the other direction."
The Underlined almost makes me 100% certian.
lammergeier wrote:
the new system, when it is complemented with revamps to encumberance and buffs, makes a lot of sense.
if you let your health pool (total) slip, your health-based actions should be limited, ie: you shouldn't be able to throw an intimidate or warcry while you're taking your final breaths.
similarly, you shouldn't be able to tumble effectively if a carbineer reduces your action pool (total) with targetted legshots.
if a rifleman is hitting you with headshots, your focus on mind-based actions (whether they be heals or returned headshot fire) should be lowered.
by tying maximum pool damage to decreased special usage, combat will be less focussed on spamming specials, and more the 'tactical' approach the devs have been looking for. by allowing specials to be used on a seperate meter than the total pool, you won't see yourself dropping dead from a flurry of special attacks... you'll just have to save up the special pool to make your hits count.
what concerns me is that buffs and armor encumberance will eventually make or break the system... essentially, where the 'diminishing returns' on secondary usage and regen stats start to cap at an effective level. if a buff can eliminate armor encumberance (as they do currently), then there will be no reason to consider unarmored combat... and a rifleman who eschews a helmet should be able to pull more special shots than one squinting through a peephole and sweating under a heavy composite helm, just as a 'naked' pikeman should be able to leap and spin around with an lance more than a heavily clad brother-at-arms fighting the same enemy.
armor needs to be adjusted to offer more defense at the expense of offensive power... which is the implicit purpose in wearing armor. currently, there is no reason NOT to wear armor (excepting decay) unless unbuffed, and no reason to be unbuffed unless you're looking for a thrill or hunting mobs well below your danger level. finding the balance will be difficult, but with the current armor delays, unequipping armor to use a special and re-equipping it has essentially been eliminated. I'm encouraged by the direction that this is heading, and I hope that it finds itself well implemented.
They say they are going to be looking at Balancing the Rewards/Penelties to wearing armor, I think they are basically saying "Say good buy to 80% composite and say hello to new encumbrances besides secondary HAM encumbrances."
I think it is good that the community scared the development(Maybe the Marketers instead, I'm not sure if the development team is calling all the shots) into pushing forward combat fixes. They wont come on a massive scale, but atleast they are coming(which is better then what we had before).
Message Edited by PyscoJuggalo on 07-25-2004 12:57 AM
I certainly don't expect them to fix ALL of any system, combat or otherwise, in a single push of code... but if they don't follow up on armor and buffs in a timely fashion after the HAM adjustment, then we're going to see the same kind of problems we're already familiar with.
the rebalance of creature/NPC stats was supposed to 'make sense, once the rest of the combat changes were implemented.' so far, we've only seen the addition of Super Battle Droids and such, which do little to add to combat content. throwing heavy armor, resists, and astronomical HAM on a creature is NOT the best way to make combat more challenging, a fact I think both players and devs are both aware of.
as per my previous post, I see hope in the proposed HAM changes... but I also want to see comprehensive adjustments to complement the system, rather than months of 'wait and see' followed by the realization that little has been done, either conceptually or code-wise, towards the 'combat balance', 'combat rebalance', or 'combat revamp'.
they've added a number of essential systems (vehicles and mounts affect everyone, and player cities are a sweeping change that offers functionality to the game that previously didn't exist) and made tweaks to fix many problems with the game: from professions, to content, to things as basic as client stability and UI improvements. the long awaited combat revamp needs thought, planning, and execution to succeed, and another stall won't improve the game, or the reaction from the players.
at the least, I'm happy to see that things are rolling again. I just hope that they can KEEP moving, rather than go another many months without comprehensive changes... and misleading communication on the schedule and status of the work that has been promised.
whether or not the combat revamp comes tomorrow, or next year, I'll be playing the game. there's plenty of things that the devs have done RIGHT, and the game is still solidly playable in many aspects. while problems may remain, it is easy to forget how far we've come so far, and how much fun the game CAN be. I look forward to watching this game continue to evolve.