Rifleman Archive
Thread: So the Devs want us to be snipers. But what is a sniper?
Message Edited by Barb-Wire on 12-01-2004 03:46 PM
Very Nice post shame I didn't read it sooner
MSP0 wrote:
It is my understanding that large caliber rifles were used in WWII. The Anti-Tank Rifles were not good at their intended role, but proved superb at picking off Infantry. Today's Barrett (50 cal) is for all intents and purposes an ATR, though it is now know as "simply" an sniper rifle.
Pardon the nitpick, please. Thanks for the history lesson!
Message Edited by MSP0 on 05-05-2004 09:26 AM
The Barrett (50Cal) or M82A1 is not actually an ATR its a AMR
The M82A1 is known for US Military as the SASR - "Special Applications Scoped Rifle", and it was and still is used as an anti-materiel weapon and EOD (explosive ordnance disposal) tool. The long effective range along with high energy and availability of highly effective ammunition such as API and Raufoss M213 allows for effective operations against targets like radar cabins, trucks, parked aircrafts and so on. M82 also can be used to defeat enemy snipers or criminals from standoff range or when targets are behind the cover, but the anti-personnel work is not a major application for Barrett M82 (or any other .50BMG rifle, for that matter).
Also sorry to Nitpick
Message Edited by Ajnin on 01-15-2005 03:28 PM
But its true though, if us Rifleman became as feared, and powerfull in game as in Rl, then all of our streangth would be countered, by the fear of other players.
How about this...since the CURB is trying to make co-ordinated grouping more dynamic. Then why not let Master Squadleaders, be able to do a check for snipers within a 200m distance.
Rifleman will get a HUGE concealment bonus, and cannot be seen by other players ,until at a close distance. The Riflemans concealment will do a dice-role against the Squad-leader's check....(much like mask-scent) If the Rifle-mans cover is blown, then the Squadleader will yell out SNIPER!!! 150m east. and that Rifleman will be running for the hills, as he will have the entire enemy group after hime.
or..
Make Rifleman able to do a sniper shot, which is a concealed powerful shot, from a huge distance...but it will only work if they are not being attacked, so once someone detects them, they return to normal rifle mode.
Ajnin wrote:
M82 also can be used to defeat enemy snipers or criminals from standoff range or when targets are behind the cover, but the anti-personnel work is not a major application for Barrett M82 (or any other .50BMG rifle, for that matter).
You would be extremely unlikely to use one of these against criminals. The over penetration potential of the weapon makes it far to dangerous to use in most law enforcement applications. Also the ranges in most criminal instances are rather short for sniper work. It isn't uncommon for the law enforcement snipers to be able to set up within 300m rather easily.
The cost of the weapon combined with its extreme limited use makes it a poor choice for law enforcement.
Waste93 wrote:
World War II : The second world war saw many changes in warfare. However the role of the sniper did not differ much from the first world war. The major change being that warfare was now much more mobile so the sniper also had to be.There were few equipment changes for the sniper. A only major one being the use of semi-auto as sniper rifles (Soviet SVT40 and the German G43). Most still prefered the use of the bolt action rifle. Telescopic sight were improved over the prior conflict with greater magnification possible. Scopes in both WWI and WWII had magnification usually of 3-4X. Though in WWII there was also use of 6X and even 10X scopes.
One change of note was however urban combat. In prior wars this was not nearly as prevelant as it was during WWII. If you have seen "Enemy at the Gates" you get a good idea of how urban warfare presented it's own unique challenges to the sniper.
** Historical Sidenote ** One point of interest. If you have seen the movie you also know of the duel between Zitsev and Konning. The the story is slightly different than that shown in the movie, there is no real historical evidence that such a duel actually took place. Though this story is usually taken as fact, there is a lack of evidence that there was a Major Konning in the german military that was sent to Stalingrad and was killed. Of course records could have been lost so this story is unconfirmed.
Vietnam : Semi auto sniper rifles generally fell out of favor with the US military. The Marines in particular switched back to a bolt action rifle. Bolt action rifles are more accurate since there is less movement within the rifle itself while the bullet is going down the barrel. Of note is also that Marines called their snipers Recon Snipers.
US snipers usually worked in teams. They would not only snipe the enemy but also acted as forward observers in calling in artillery when they felt it was needed.
We also have the use of large caliber weapons for extreme range sniping. This was usually done by mounting a scope to a tripod mounted .50 machine gun and firing it semi auto. Kill shots of over a mile were recorded.
Present : Many snipers have now gone back to the bolt action rifle. They usually work in teams and their primary role is not only elimination of high value targets, but also of observation. But we have also seen the advent of another kind of sniper. The law enforcement sniper.
Military Sniper : This is the sniper most people think about. The military sniper has the role of not only eliminating high value targets, but also of observing and reporting on the enemies movements. Typical ranges for the military sniper are usually 600-700m. They use high precision weapons, high tech optics, and old fashioned accurate shooting to acomplish their mission.
The military sniper is also a formidable psychological weapon. Soldiers in general understand that they can be injuried or killed in combat. But it is usually an abstract concept for them. Yet the thought of a sniper picking them out will usually send a chill up their spine. It is this aspect of being singled out that has throught the snipers history led them to be reviled not only by the enemy but also in many cases by those on their same side.
In the past it was not uncommon for a sniper that was captured to be summarily executed. Not was it uncommon for the snipers own comrade in arms to call them "murders".
Concealment for the military sniper is of vital importance. If they are spotted the enemy can call in heavy weaponry to destroy their position. It is for this reason they prefer to engage at long range. It makes them harder to spot and easier to escape if need be.
Observation is also of vital importance since the modern role of the sniper is also to gather information on the enemies movements.
Law Enforcement Sniper : There are some important differences between the LE Sniper and the Military Sniper which is why I'm listing it seperately.
LE Snipers have a much different target type than the other sniper types. They are usually called in as part of a SWAT team in hostage and barricaded subject situations. This also usually means their terrain is urban.
Urban terrain and because of the criminal, as opposed to military, nature of the targets allows the LE sniper to set up much closer to the target. Also camo is of less importance. The criminal knows the cops are out there anyway and they really can't call in artillery on the snipers position (at least the vast majority of the time). So the LE sniper will set up on rooftops or in buildings with clear lines of sites. Also most criminals are armed with pistol so even a distance of 100m can offer the LE sniper a fair amount of protection.
The LE sniper is part of a larger team. Usually a SWAT team. The LE sniper will cover the SWAT team as they make entry. Prior to that their main task is observation. Watch the target, determine how many bad guys, what weapons, where people are. Information that is vital for an entry team. Sometimes the LE sniper will also be called on to take out a target of opportunity.
Hunter : I'm hoping by now most of you will see why I've included a hunter as a type of sniper. Many of the innovations such as optical sights, ghillie suits, and the word itself came from hunters. A sniper is basicaly someone that can fire accurately over distance from a concealed position. A hunter also does this.
A hunter hunts animals. That is a major difference between the hunter and the other types of snipers. Yet many aspects are the same. Hunters fire from long range using optical sights in an effort to hit the target in a single shot. If they miss their prey is likely to escape.
The hunter also relies on camo. But not only visual. They also rely more on scent and sound camo than the others. Though animals are in general fairly stupid, the have keen senses and have not problems bolting when the sense something wrong. So the hunter has to not only hide visually. They most also practice sound (stealth) and odor discipline and negate the animals increased senses.
Conclusion : So there is the basics about the history of sniping and the types of sniping. Hope this has been of some interest to some of you and hope you learned some things. I am not an expert on sniping. It is a topic that has interested me for a long time so I've read a fair amount on it. But my knowledge comes from reading experts and from firing actualy sniper weapons. Not solely from playing on the computer and RPGs.
I'm also hoping from reading this you will get an understanding of why Rifleman being Snipers is not possible under the current game system. The sniper relies on four items for sucess. Accuracy, Range, Concealment, and Observation.
Accuracy is a skill we have. It is something the game has. So that is not an issue. However there is part of an issue here. Snipers rely on long range accurate fire to kill the target. Firing at ranges that non-snipers can not do effectively. However in the game the accuracy of Master level professions makes it so there is no real difference between the Rifleman (sniper) and the non-sniper.
Range. Distance is the snipers friend, at least in the military snipers role. The greater distance between the target and the sniper the less chance of the sniper being spotted and killed. In the military sniper role the sniper is usually part of a two man team. Which means they are usually greatly outnumbered. So while the sniper knows he is accurate over a great distance, they also know the average soldier is not. In the game there is no range. 64m max range isn't even the length of the typical rifle range. Nor are they very likely to increase it. That means the rifleman gets off one or two shots before the enemy locates and closes the distance if need be.
Concealment. SImilar to the range issue. As shown above the sniper relies on being able to remain unseen while the target and shoot their target. Yet in game there is no real concealment. We do have ConcealShot. But that works only on MOBs and NPCs. It has no effect on players since a player can see and be seen by all other players.
Observation. Something that probably can't be simulated in the game. The fourth part of the sniper profession is the ability to observe and report enemy movements while remaining hidden. How this would be put in the game I have no idea.
So of the four skills vital for the sniper. Only one is mostly in the game. That is accuracy. One can not be added (observation) that I am aware of. While one (range) the Devs have set they will not change, while the fourth (concealment) could possibly be changed to fit in with a sniper role.
So how are Riflemen suppose to be snipers?
Message Edited by Waste93 on 11-28-2004 07:28 PM
Marines call there snipers scout-snipers but close enough
Waste93 wrote:
Ajnin wrote:
M82 also can be used to defeat enemy snipers or criminals from standoff range or when targets are behind the cover, but the anti-personnel work is not a major application for Barrett M82 (or any other .50BMG rifle, for that matter).
You would be extremely unlikely to use one of these against criminals. The over penetration potential of the weapon makes it far to dangerous to use in most law enforcement applications. Also the ranges in most criminal instances are rather short for sniper work. It isn't uncommon for the law enforcement snipers to be able to set up within 300m rather easily.
The cost of the weapon combined with its extreme limited use makes it a poor choice for law enforcement.
It did say can, and I didn't really belive law enforcment would use one as you say
Message Edited by Ajnin on 02-07-2005 08:19 AM