Rifleman Archive
Thread: Discussion on invisible vs invulnerable
speaks on behalf of the rifleman/chick community, it is as you say her job, whereas I among all the other rangers in this thread were invited to post our opinions by her. I was only arguing against the other guy that seemed to think my opinions are identical to Acks.Message Edited by Landorien on 09-24-2005 07:02 PM
Landorien wrote:
Well of course _she_
I don't have any trouble with the discussion itself, its healthy, but that shouldn't prevent anyone from asking the nasty but relevant questions.
If it does not go through proper discussion, like a single community that obviously wants their profession better you're not going to have a balanced conclusion, it will step on toes of the other stealth professions, who will cry on nerfs or whatever. Remember this post is arising simultanously as they are talking about putting a nerf on jedi stealth with a snare effect on top of the actual fixes to prevent exploitation.
Basically, stealth is a heated subject.
Many pardons for not recognizing the gender, but its a cruel force of habit to assume gamers are guys, and in my humble defense its not a very feminine name. Then again.. tacklekissing phenix _should_ have been a sign.. but he's bothan so.. yeah.. sorry ack!
Message Edited by Landorien on 09-24-2005 07:02 PM
Landorien wrote:
I agree on some points, but I do not summarize his opinions in that he speaks on behalf of mainly the riflemen with this tweak.
riflemen are prone to being prone,
Actually that depends entirely on your template. The only time I am ever prone is to get off a snipershot in PvE and solo, or when I am /cover-ing. For the most part I'm not only on my feet but on my feet and within melee range of the enemies since my secondary role is healer.
However, let's ignore the posture tendencies of ranged classes since that is not what is being discussed. What is being discussed is the posture tendencies of ranged classes while invisible. Ranger- standing, kneeling, prone. Jedi- standing, kneeling, prone. Rifleman- prone, even prone'er.
riflemen are the ones that would be to take the most advantage of this change, because both rangers and jedi use their stealth forimproved mobility, heck they depend on it in each their way.
Which means that their form of stealth is the most likely to be recognized/most open to a snafu complex. If you want to be safer, more defended then go prone and setup an ambush. If you want to start running around realize that you are opening yourself up for trouble.
But the problem is, and I feel that is significant; Riflemanis the profession with the LEAST amount of stealthskills in their profession, compared to the others, but yet seem to retain the most power in the end of it with being able to attack from under it and not break it.
I really don't understand how /cover and /concealshot are the most powerful stealth abilities. First off cover requires a large area to be void of any object that can see us in order to go under cover. After we are undercover we can hardly move thanks to being prone. Concealshot is a very insignificant damage dealing shot and I have yet to fire more than 2 of them and stay under cover. If you are worried about invisible damage that you can't return fire to you really don't have to worry about concealshot. We'd be better off shooting 1 snipershot, exposing ourselves afterwards.
But regardless of that, our skill (in the least skilled profession) requires a good bit of luck to keep from breaking. We have one hell of a wide bubble you can burst simply by being at a close range to us, by the sounds of it a ranger can grab somebody's ass yet still be invisible. I'd say that is a tad more powerful when you come down to it.
/cover is just one skill, in a myriad of a powerful template, whereas maxstealth on ranger is the "master box candy", so the benefits of it should in my opinion be superior to the 0200 rifleman, and vastly so.
...and it is. In many, many ways.
Seems to me rifleman wants their cake and eat it too. Both attack from stealth, and also get a neat bit of resistance that other stealth professions are unlikely to benefit from to even nearly the same degree.
They can benefit from it more-so than we can. Our invisibility bubble is very easy to pop, we can't crawl right up next to somebody we pretty much have to pick a spot then wait. If you where to be cloaked or 'whatever the master level ranger skill is called' -ed, then go prone you would be able to be on your belly 6 inches from your opponent's shoes yet still be invisible. If anything I would say all the other professions benefit from this greater than rifleman since your stealth skills are so much better than our own.
It'd be a nice patchup if they reintroduced the beneficial effects of kneeling or being prone from a distance, and maleficient if you do it up close to a melee, just don't stick it on stealth as to why its so.
I disagree, I'd rather they not bring that back into full time play but rather have it exist solely on concealment. If it where to make a comeback it would provide ranged characters with a big benefit which melee'ers have 0 access to.
Further, spare me the "sane"-tagging. This is a game balance issue, and needs to be adressed from every direction. Just stick to your argumentation and don't play preacher on the fence.
So refute the points of that post. You realize that pointing out a fallacy and then claiming it invalidates the entire statement is a fallacy in and of itself. I pulled out an Ad-hom, sorry. Now ignore it and look at the meat.
Oh, and you where actually summarizing part of Ack's idea.
Landorien wrote:
He may be standing next to someone, but ultimately you do not aim for him, so he is "harder" to hit. Far from invincible I agree. But hitting things _randomly_ should be significantlyharder than actively aiming even if visually they might be standing next to your wouldbe victim/duelling ally(which would be exploited to no end of course as however people detect cloaked jedi today)
Hitting things randomly without visually aiming should be rather difficult (50% chance of not getting hit while standing-Ackehece) The only thing is, she took that to the logical conclusion of 'hitting things randomly without visually aiming should be even more difficult if they're down in the dirt' and showed that with 'invisibleand kneeling is 65% unlikely to be hit with an AoE spread, invisible and prone is 80% unlikely to be hit with an AoE spread.'
The numbers can and should be tweaked, however I don't see this statement as beign beneficial to none but invisied riflemen which you had suggested. All it means is that prone characters who are invisible are least likely to get hit by a spray of bullets. We are prone by default in order to go invisible but you are not prevented from going prone with your skills.
Or are you suggesting that the prone requirement be taken away from /cover and/or a prone requirement be tacked on to the rangering skills and I missed it? Because I'd have to disagree with both of those points as well.
- This thread is not related to anything about changes to cover - it is in reply to the idea that Jedi want to be completely invulnerable while under cover. Think more in concept then current development plans
- If some feel that our cover is to cheap - what do you all think about giving it at 0100 and then adding mods up that column and in the master box for it. As well as a master level version of conceal shot. Or optionally moving cover up to 0400 and then allowing conceal shot to be fired without it but at a damage divisor? I personally think that it is fine the way it is but needs to be ampped up a bit with new mods in the tree (option 1)
Ackehece wrote:
- This thread is not related to anything about changes to cover - it is in reply to the idea that Jedi want to be completely invulnerable while under cover. Think more in concept then current development plans
- If some feel that our cover is to cheap - what do you all think about giving it at 0100 and then adding mods up that column and in the master box for it. As well as a master level version of conceal shot. Or optionally moving cover up to 0400 and then allowing conceal shot to be fired without it but at a damage divisor? I personally think that it is fine the way it is but needs to be ampped up a bit with new mods in the tree (option 1)
To me /cover is pretty much alright. I'd prefer if it didn't have such a wide area req to go into it, but that's never stopped me before and I wouldn't consider it truly necessary. What is pretty low on the totem-pole is concealshot. Having a master level version of it that actually did damage when it comes to PvP would be great. As it stands other people get to look at us and go 'concealshot!!! you get to damage people when invisible!!!' even though it's as dangerous as a limp wrist. An alternative to this, I feel, would be to let snipershot be fired under /cover but with a fairly high chance of being exposed after the shot is fired.
AxilX wrote:
while i agree with Ack's position on this issue.. i question the relevance of this as pertains to rifleman. In PvE this is not an issue, the PvP utility of cover is extremely limited anyway. I really couldn't care less what affect an AoE would have on me under cover.
Now i'm not saying there's anything wrong with debating this.. i'd just prefer this be waaay down our priority list, let's fight for things that can really benefit us like a bump to the duration and modifer of aim, somthing to compensate for our lack of dps when compared to pistols and carbines, etc.
Ackehece wrote:
AxilX wrote:
while i agree with Ack's position on this issue.. i question the relevance of this as pertains to rifleman. In PvE this is not an issue, the PvP utility of cover is extremely limited anyway. I really couldn't care less what affect an AoE would have on me under cover.
Now i'm not saying there's anything wrong with debating this.. i'd just prefer this be waaay down our priority list, let's fight for things that can really benefit us like a bump to the duration and modifer of aim, somthing to compensate for our lack of dps when compared to pistols and carbines, etc.
more of a issue right now as the devs are looking at this part of the code. If we do not address it when they are actively looking at itthen it is our own problem. Better to deal with it in the order the devs are giving us then at a later date when they are not interested.
fair enough.. just saying - don't use up any favors over it
Message Edited by AxilX on 09-24-2005 09:16 PM
In one of Ackehece's more recent statements she impressed upon us the opportunity to voice our opinjions and desires for the Concealment line while the Devs are activly looking at the code. I agree this is a momentus occasion. I wanted to share some thoughts I had.
Firstly there would be three Stealth professions: Jedi, Rangers and Rifle-sentients (trying for gender and species neutral here). Although the Devs indicated their desire for a "common ruleset", there could be some value in minor variations in the three professions that make each partially unique, and some alterations made for equality. While a ful template Jedi is unlikely to possess either Ranger or Rifle, lower ranks might hold onto some of the "mundane" professions - I don't see that as a big issue so there may not be any sense to swell on that. The combination or Master Ranger and Master Rifle-sentient is a definate posibility, and perhaps this Master Stealther of the mundane could be a mirror to balance Jedi against, so that similar abilities are with each, depending on the template chioce and realizing that a Jedi that did choose so would be giving up powers elsewhere. So before anyone worries about Jedi, lets look at Rifle-sentient and Ranger.
I like Ackehece's idea of making the Concealment line in general and Cover in particular more evolutionary in nature, instead of the 1-stop-shopping it is now. To me part of that is identifying what uniqueness is offered from Concealment that isnt avaialble from Camoflauge. If there is no distinction, nothing that a Rifle-sentient can do that a Ranger cannot, then I think we all lose out. There should be some similarities between them, but at the same time something special about them to make the dual mastery of both professions attractive without become all-powerful. A master of one profession dabbling into the other should receive a noticeable advantage, but need dual master to enjoy the full benefit. Having increasing levels of Cover and looking at Conceal shot help, but I wonder if something fundamental needs to change to Cover.
First lets talk offense. Right now we Rifle-sentients are the ones slated tobe able to fire under Cover, but after a while Rangers and Powers Jedi would start to scream about it being unfair. What if Rangers receive a basic Stealth attack that does exactly the same damage as the newbie attack Ranged Shot, and maybe the a Meele attack as well. That gives Ranger some fundamental usefullness in combat using their primary skill, but it wount be that fabulous. Rifle-sentients would still have Conceal Shot, except with it going to Advanced. These shots would do much more damage than the basic shot the Ranger has (I would say that the strength of Conceal Shot sould mirror exactly the strength of Sniper Shot, but I doubt that will happen), giving Rifle-sentients an advantage, and also giving Rangers something they could grab if they wanted to, but would still be functional without it. A Meele Ranger could live without the Rifle-sentient ranged damage since they would be able to use Ranger Stealth to get into range of their enemy to actuallyu engage in combat at their range. On Jedi, why not give Force Choke the ability to be used while Force Cloaked (that is a Master level skill, so a Jedi player would be giving up a lot of skill points to have that - I think that might be self balancing).
Ok if we Rifle-sentients have the offensive advantage over Rangers, then how could Rangers have an advantage we could live without but still desire. Well they should definately have higher mobility - a Ranger crawling while Camoflauged should be faster that a Rifle-sentient crawling. Well, they are already getting that. To me that begs the queston, "what is the difference between Cover and Camoflauge Self?" If someont is Master Ranger and Master Rifle-sentient, is cover a useless skill? If done correctly, both Cover and Camoflauge would be very valuable to have and use.
So how? In my Army experience, a distinction was made between Cover and Concealment. Concealment was simply making yourself hard to see by the enemy. Cover was the act positioning yourself near an object that would provide some protection against enemy fire. The distinction was made becasue you could be in a foxhole with sandbags and be Covered, and not be concealed at all, while a Sniper in a Gilla suit was very well concealed but not covered from fire. In this game, the Rifle-sentient ability treated our skill as both. Now Rangers will be good at Concealment without much protection. What if Cover served as a stealthy defense that caries an associated cost (we cant have something for nothing)?
Ok, what if we Rifle-sentients were certified to use various Camoflauge devices (the HEPs and camo kits) but we couldn't make them - a little inter-profession dependancy never hurts. Lets pretend that Rangers got Camoflauge self at Novice Ranger - grant Rifle-sentients the identical ability at Novice Rifles. We start off at the same place, and part ways with different focuses. We have to use Camo kits and HEPs just like they do, and we start off being unable to move like they do as well.
At x1xx, Cover (basic version) is still granted , but now we have a schematic for sandbags or something of a high-tech nature, like a temporary armor or shield. Also we get to crawl while Camoflauged. Taking cover adds a significant Ranged Defense bonus, and can be used in absence of Camoflauge (unstealthed), but has 2 drawbacks. First, Cover would have a self-Root involved (just like camoflauge has a self-snare). If you are nestled next to a few sandbags, you cant maneuver very well. There shoud be a few seconds of self-rooting if cover is broken. Please note that in this you can break cover while still being Concealed/Camoflauged/Unseen. Second, it has an equally significant Meele Defense penalty. Thirdly, it would have a downer period (like a spice downer) whenever Cover is broken that carries a Ranged Defense Penalty along with the Meele Defense penalty, lasting as long as the self-root lasts. This would mean that while in Cover you are fairly well protected, but if you were discovered and lost stealth (but not necessarily cover) you would be HIGHLY vulnerable to being bum-rushed by an opponent, and if you are forced to break cover you are a sitting duck for a few instants.
Combining Cover with Ranger at this level might still be useful if the Ranger skills possessed already had the Stealth Ranged attack. You must still be Prone while Covered, but a Ranger would still able to remain invisible and kneel/stand and move to a better position. A Rifle-sentient may wish to dabble in Ranger to have just enough added mobility to maneuver for a better shot.
At x2xx we get Conceal Shot. While the Stealth Shot can be used any time under Camoflauge, Conceal Shot requires both Cover and Concealment. This might help justify the shot doing the damage as Sniper Shot - or maybe 1.5x Sniper Shot. Make the timers longer to counterbalance the added damage. If concealment is lost, the shot cant be made and the Rifle-sentient may have to use Sniper Shot until the need to break Cover arrives, exposing the Rifle-sentient to the vulnerabilities above. As you can see even at this level, there are advantages to Covering even if not stealthed, and a Ranger combining cover and Conceal shot can be a serious threat to someone - making the Detections skills of a Ranger a valuable thing to have.
At x3xx, what about an Improved Cover? This could lend itself to be "integrated" with surrounding terrain, like a big rock, a fallen tree, a bush, or maybe even a short wall in a city. It has an increased Ranged Defense bonus, and literally "meshes" you with the feature so that you can have a clear Line of Sight while your targer does not. The increased LOS and Defense carries a slightly longer root and penalties matching the increased bonus. Also, city Cover can be made/taken without being concealed in that position, but the HEP is still needed for complete Covor and Concealment.
There is an advantage to Covering in a city without Concealing. Just becasue your target can see you doenst mean the ground between you and he/she is safe. Cities have a way of corraling people into choke points and predictable paths. Your target sees you on the other side of a bridge firing under Cover, and starts to run across the bridge - which you have mined with hidden devices you set while still hidden. The fact you were visible lured your target right into a trap of their own stupidity.
At x4xx Improved Conceal Shot is granted, would be 1.5 times as damageing as Improved Sniper Shot, but with significantly longer timers.
For Master Rifle-sentient, I'm not sure. Do we need an Advanced Conceal Shot that does 1.5x of Advanced Sniper - I'm not sure we do, but what do I know. I was thinking of Advanced Cover, a significant breakthru in combat cover. Advanced Cover would allow the use of building windows and/or rooftops, trees and other elevated positions that allow the Rifle-sentient to get a clear shot while making it VERY difficult for the target to find a position to get a clear shot back. Advanced Cover also doubles the Range of the weapon being used. While no additional Ranged Defensive bonus is received, the added range and special firing position come at a rather heavy cost. First, it takes a lot longer to get into and out of position. Second the penalty is much greater than Improved Cover. Thirdly, since all of these positions are at a height, any successful shot your any makes on you carries with it the chance the injury will cause you to fall down, doing MAJOR damage to you. While this cost is high, it may be deamed as worth it in certain situations, like some player cities and Outposts like Dathomir Trade or Kashyyyk where movement might be restricted enough by mines that the target has little room to maneuver and get a good shot in at you.
At the end of this, Rifle-sentients would be able to combine basic self camoflauge for a defensible position that almost forces a target to rush to Meele range to be able to engage you (giving them Brawlers a niche back in the game). Improved and Advanced Cover give superb LOS advantages while also giving added protection, and Conceal Shot is a stout tool in our repatiour (sp?) By ourselves, will we be able to move faster than a crawl and stay hidden - nope. Will we have something decent to gain by picking up Ranger - yep. Will Rangers have something decent to gain by taking Rifle-sentient - sure.
Message Edited by Darth_Spike on 09-26-2005 01:22 PM
Message Edited by Darth_Spike on 09-26-2005 06:54 PM
Ackehece wrote:
no no.. please place it back.. it was interesting.
just a little off tangent but it relates - please repost it