Rifleman Archive

Maybe they will just take redcon out, then they would all be yellow.

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Aden_Nak wrote:

I'm almost remiss to suggest ways to penalize the Pistoleers and Carbineers. Then I think we WILL get some flames going on in here. But there is reason to believe that the other gunners should get a different sort of penalty. The trick to these penalties is to only set the player back when they are using the character POORLY. A Rifleman is king of the distance shot (in theory). So if you use him like that, you won't get stuck with the penalty. The penalties for other classes would have to prevent them from doing the things they aren't meant to do. Which so far I haven't seen.

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This is why I like the 2.5x melee damage. When I get hit by something in melee it is my own fault, I wasn't paying attention, didn't use the skill availble to me etc. It is a weakness that can be overcome by thinking about it and using the skills avaiable. This is why I'm willing to defend it, because it can be overcomeand it is a bad enough penalty to make it worththe effort to avoid. But along with this penalty we should have some advantages, I feel we are not quite there with them YET.

The pistol also gets a melee damage penalties as well, I believe it is 10% extra melee damage, this is a bad penalty. There is no point in trying to overcome or avoid it because it is so small. It is, in myopinion worthless.

I also would like to see our HAM costs changed from mind to health and/or action. But I would like to see a increase of 25% on all our HAM costs at the same time. We should pay for our special moves, because they should be some of the most deadly, but this cost should not leave us sitting on the floor for the next 5 minutes while our friends use one stimpack and are up fighting again.

Seflyn wrote:

"This is why I like the 2.5x melee damage. When I get hit by something in melee it is my own fault, I wasn't paying attention, didn't use the skill availble to me etc. It is a weakness that can be overcome by thinking about it and using the skills avaiable."

The only skill I have available is F5, burst run.

I'm not opposed to some penalty (chance to hit already in-game), but 2.5x is too much. Under your scenario, if I miss or don't kill the enemy, I'm forced to drop my weapon and run. At least give me a fighting chance!

I don't have any other weapon skill, nor do I want one and shouldn't have to have another. Again...I understand the rationale for this, but it was accomplished already with the penalty we get to accuracy.

Thoth

Personally I think the 2.5 Melee Multiplier can stay ONLY if they increase our max range over what it is now. We need more TIME. That's the bottom line. There's nothing more depressing than doing a Headshot3 only to watch it Miss, and then realize that I'm going to have to stand up and run BEFORE I can lay my second shot down.

If they refuse to give us the range we so badly need, then the Melee Multiplier has to come down. It doesn't have to go away, but it does have to come down. 1.75 perhaps? That's still a huge hit, and much more than the 1.1 Multiplier than Pistoleers have to deal with. How about if we cannot be incapped due to MULTIPLIED damage as long as the base damage wouldn't have killed us?

I mean, if I have 20 Health Points left, and I get hit for 200 before the Multiplier, I am going to die. Fine. But if I have 400 Health Points left, and I get hit for 175, it shouldn't be able to cast over 400 on me. The only thing that this absurdly high Melee Multiplier does right now is cause people to hotkey their weapons. I currently take out my Fanfar when I run away from MOBs.

Then penalty can stay, but it needs to be rethought and re-calculated.

Aden_Nak, while I like both your new ideas, I agree that the most effective and simple for the Devs to do would be the first one. Switch our specials to use action and/or health.

I'm sorry but there is no way I can see of getting to master rifleman without taking at least expert ranged support abilitys. It is not a big price to pay, 9 skill points for warning shot, or 14 for warning shot and suppression fire. The trouble is even if both these were on the rifleman tree people would still say the 2.5x melee damage was too hard.

The way I see it, we remove the 2.5x melee damage, and turn ourselves into a slow version of the pistoleer that does mind damage, has few good specials. OR we accept that we SUCK at close range, and make up for it by being superb at long range. The T21 thread showed that the Devs will listen to a certain extent, but if you go to them saying "I want to do massive damage at long range, and umm can you remove me taking more damage in melee." I do not think they will listen.

I took rifleman because I wanted to do big damage at long ranges, it was more fun to play than the pistoleer, and I liked the "sniper" concept. So I would really like to see the 2.5x melee remain in place.

I just don't like dropping my weapon and running...I have to do it all the time.

Pistoleers and Carbineers don't...

Seflyn, actually I have the Ranged Support tree maxed. Squad Leader and all. And I do abuse the ever-loving-crap out of Supression Fire and Warning Shot. But I find that the time I gain on Supression Fire doesn't allow me to do much more than kite one MOB at a time. That's the price of a slow-firing-gun. Heh.

And as I said, if the 2.5 Melee Multiplier stays, then I think our Max Range should go up. To be honest, I think that's the better solution. It will appease the Riflemen who PREFER that aspect of the character, and it will also give us all a better chance to survive.

There is another solution that I mentioned in another thread just now, though. Hear me out.

What is really the problem with the 2.5 Melee Multiplier? The problem is that it's impossible for the Rifleman to kill his targets before they reach him, and thus we get DESTROYED at close range. So what is the actual problem? Perhaps the 2.5 Melee Multiplier is just a symptom of a larger disease.

The Rifleman "Concept" should be able to drop an enemy in one shot. That's why Riflemen are so bad***. But that's not "fair" for PvP, and on one level I can understand that and respect it. So our one-shot kills are out. Fine. What problem does that leave us with?

How do I kill this MOB before it crosses 64 meters?

We've already ruled out damage increases. Not going to happen. And I can understand the reasoning (although I think with the 75% reduction in PvP that reasoning holds less water). And we can't jack up the attack speed on the rifles because then by the time you get to Master Rifleman you will be firing more quickly than a Pistoleer, that no one want that. So maybe we need to change the nature of the question.

How do I kill this MOB before it crosses 128 meters?

Now we have a chance of survival. Because the issue isn't the amount of damage we can deal. The issue is that we can't score enough damage to win the fight before the fight reaches us. At which point we will LOSE. If standing next to a Melee fighter atMinimum Range is near instant death for us, then charging at us from Maximum Range should be near instant death for them. That's life.

Of course, people are going to complain about that, too. And while I do think that the range needs to go up, even I will conceed that perhaps 128 meters is too high. So what is our solution?

Once again, we have to understand the question. We can't increase the damage of our shotsbecause it's already the highest in the game. We can't increase the weapon speed because it will be too high when we reach Master. My suggestion is to make the Rifle Speed bonuses in the Rifleman tree easier to get. Currently they require Combat XP, the slowest XP you can gain. I suggest switching that tree with Counter-Sniping, so that it uses normal Rifle XP. This will allow people to level their Rifle Speed at a reasonable pace, alongside the Accuracy and the Aiming. It would make all the difference for our class's ability to fight, and it would NOT upset the balance of the Master Rifleman.

I agreed with changing the +speed bonus to something other than combat XP in another thread.

I'm 90% sure the Devs will never buy a range increaseabove 80m.

What would help is if prone and cover worked. BAF mobs should never BAF on the first shot if you are prone and covered. If you can hit 5 shots when using prone and cover as a rifleman that should be enough to get the jump on most mobs you should be soloing.

The fact that carbineers and pistoleers never have to drop their weapon is my point exactly. If we never have to drop our weapon WHY should we be good at long range?

Seflyn...

The fact is that pistol and carbine users are as good as us in long range. That's fact.

We suck at close range....they don't.

In ADDITION we get plastered in melee. They don't.

I'm saying the balance should be in the chance to hit....That's enough.

They suck at long range, we at short....Don't give any dmg increase at all.

I think the solution to the disparity between Pistoleer/Carbiner and Rifleman is the scale the other two back to being reasonable, not to jack up the Rifleman. But something must be done, yes.

However, the sheer fact that Seflyn and I now AGREE on something is a sign to me that it's a good idea. The Rifle Speed modifier should be easier to buy as you go up the tree, since it is FAR MORE SIGNIFICANT for the Rifleman than it is for the other gunner classes. My suggestion to switch the placement (and the XP requirements) of Rifle Special Abilities and Counter-Sniping Techniques stands. You can even re-name Rifle Special Abilities to something different, like Rifle Proficiency. But we need the Speed and we need it NOW.