Rifleman Archive
Thread: I'm Really Disappointed
I have always liked the 2.5x melee modifier. I feel there should always be disadvantages and strengths to every class.
Rifleman right now have the 2.5x modifier and horrible accuracy up close ... those should remain
Pistoleers really have no Disadvantages.
To philospher....
Yeah I did forget about the 2.5 getting looked into, my apologies it's nearly midnight here not thinking at 100%.
Just read though aden's post and I agree with a lot in it as well that was said on both sides, I could see us getting the big increase and pistols a minor dropoff to keep the kite cries at bay, just as long as it worked the other way at close range exactly the samewith pistols getting the edge but riflemen still able to hang in there. It would certainly beat the way things are now where it might just be me, but I feel like I am hooribly inaccurate compared to the pistol spamming specials like mad.
It really isn't just one issue ya gotta look at the whole deal, speed, HAMs, accuracy, and dps, taking and tweaking one really doesn't take the others into account. And right now I'm a bit too tired to do much but ramble past the point I made above. I really REALLY don't want to see swg fall into the powergamer trap, we can't call nerf 100% and we can't juke classes 100% either, a balance does have to be reached, and heck maybe I'll think more on it tomorrow.
Anyway before I get to bed a radical proposal I thought up eariler today. This won't work with speed caps going in and is a rough draft from heck but what would happen if the mods looked like this?
Pistol: base acc mod caps at +75, extra acc bonuses to standing, a minor one to acc while moving. And the speed capped at +75
Carbine: a base acc mod capped at +50 (to simulate spraying bullets) but great bonuses to acc while moving, and a minor one of some other kind (insert idea here) but the only class with a speed cap of +90-100 so they get the 1 sec guns for sure (to again simulate spraying bullets)
Rifle: a base acc mod that caps at +90-100, bonuses on par with the other trees for rifle aiming (more then we get now by a touch but close or even with the bonuses the others get) but our speed capped at +50.
Now I realized right off the biggest problem was I just made a hard speed cap anyway since carbines are 1 sec and my 7.2 T21 would get about 3-4 sec unstyled at best. But leaves the option at least for a faster gun to be used, and this whole random idea might be used as a start to adjust things at least.
Anyway off to bed now, if you got any thoughts on this would love ta hear em.
Well I don't know about that. A pure Pistoleer doesn't have a single Special move that is better than anything he gets in Marksman. All of the moves but one are random HAM, and the one (BodyShot3) is worse than BodyShot2. None of our specials have any state effects. Our DPS is pretty low. We target the health pool, which is easy to buff and heal.
BH Pistol is in good shape, but a lot of us (including me) are thinking of surrendering Pistoleer and picking up other classes because none of the good pistol skills are in Pistoleer. So it's not like Pistoleer is a perfect class.
I think both classes have their problems. If 2.5 melee is something you guys like, fine. It was listed as your #1 issue on a sticky thread, and when I've played a rifleman it pissed me off (especially with warping), which is why I listed it. But neither class is perfect and both have a lot that needs to be fixed.
Tilen, well I'm not sure ... look at the BHs. They seem to have everything 
All kidding aside, you're right that I'd like to see our classes be balanced based upon special moves and abilities instead of range, etc. But that isn't unreasonable or evil -- it's just a different way of balancing the classes.
I respect you for having a different view. And I know that you want to preserve disadvantages to have advantages. All I'm saying is that like many people I'd rather see stuff added in and have the annoying stuff taken out, and that's not an evil thing or anything.
Philosopher1976 wrote:
Well I don't know about that. A pure Pistoleer doesn't have a single Special move that is better than anything he gets in Marksman. All of the moves but one are random HAM, and the one (BodyShot3) is worse than BodyShot2. None of our specials have any state effects. Our DPS is pretty low. We target the health pool, which is easy to buff and heal.
Most of those are just adjustments that need to be made(that yourJager should of pushed before bringing up the speed issue)No real inherent Disadvantages besides the bold which could be true.
Sometimes the best way to fix things is to cut down the one thing that's too powerful rather than try to bring up 20 things that are too weak.
It's called "balance".
Yes, they could increase everyone else's strength to match the pistoleer but it results in the same thing: pistoleers are going to be weaker relative to everyone else. Whether this happens by bringing everyone else up or by bringing pistoleers down doesn't matter, the end result is the same.
It's just that one way is a lot easier than the other.
you mean other than me scratching at people in pvp (you know people who know what there doing and where armor)... now if you want my range limited i have to get within 15 meters of a commando>? If i see commando i switch off Dx2 (cuz i cant hit sht at 60 meters with it) and drop back with FW and pray he doesnt have armor or set me on fire.
Changes you guys will make affect many things that you simply are not willing to look at, instead just keep thinking that making pistol worse will make you better. People think pistol has no disadvantage.. well ill see you in couple weeks when your guys accuracy is fixed and i get killed by Rifleman before i can even see them or get close enough to shoot them, Hell its obvious 90% of you arnt even master rifleman yet
Dragon,
I agree with a lot of what you said. Personally I don't like the extreme differences at range -- both at close range for rifles and long range for pistols -- because I think it's dumb when you have someone either kiting you or staying close to you and you can't defend yourself. Maybe some people like that, but I don't. I guess it's a matter of taste and playing style.
Your speed idea is pretty good and is certainly better than the lame hard cap because at least then the _weapon speed_ would still matter. Under the Devs proposal your spray stick would be no faster than the T21. Dumb. There are other ideas out there (Noules, a rifleman,had a good one too) but yours is a good one.
Sadly I have to head out too ... I guess I like discussing this stuff too much, but my friend is waiting and we're heading out. LOL
Raloorn ... Jaegen did press for that stuff (specials, etc) in our report.
Ironically I'm the one who pushed for the speed issue, but it didn't turn out the way I wanted _at all_. I wanted them to change the **edit** equation not add these **edit** caps.
Okay I have to head out ... see you guys later.
DisplacedSurfeR wrote:
"Pistoleers really have no Disadvantages."
you mean other than me scratching at people in pvp (you know people who know what there doing and where armor)... now if you want my range limited i have to get within 15 meters of a commando>? If i see commando i switch off Dx2 (cuz i cant hit sht at 60 meters with it) and drop back with FW and pray he doesnt have armor or set me on fire.
Changes you guys will make affect many things that you simply are not willing to look at, instead just keep thinking that making pistol worse will make you better. People think pistol has no disadvantage.. well ill see you in couple weeks when your guys accuracy is fixed and i get killed by Rifleman before i can even see them or get close enough to shoot them, Hell its obvious 90% of you arnt even master rifleman yet
bold - i hope thats not directed at me hehe i was the 5th Master rifleman on tarq.
Italic - no offense but if you expect high damage you picked the wrong class.
Philosopher1976 wrote:Tilen, well I'm not sure ... look at the BHs. They seem to have everything
They're next.No way should a class have as much upfront firepower as those 2 do (Commando and BH) and suffer no real penalties (save for range/accuracy with commandos). No other game I can think of gives that much relative power that those classes hold with the relatively low disadvantages that those classes have. Hell, in most cases, classes with that much relative power a whole other class to set them up. I just need to get the numbers to back me up before I start on that, and most of the conversations we're having here are breaking down combat to its smallest details and I'm going to need that before I go after those 2.
Balance will be achieved through class lines, its just going to take a while.
Tilen
Scylla
but they spend more points *rolls-eyes*
oaktree68 wrote:
Philosopher1976 wrote:
Tilen, well I'm not sure ... look at the BHs. They seem to have everything
They're next.No way should a class have as much upfront firepower as those 2 do (Commando and BH) and suffer no real penalties (save for range/accuracy with commandos). No other game I can think of gives that much relative power that those classes hold with the relatively low disadvantages that those classes have. Hell, in most cases, classes with that much relative power a whole other class to set them up. I just need to get the numbers to back me up before I start on that, and most of the conversations we're having here are breaking down combat to its smallest details and I'm going to need that before I go after those 2.
Balance will be achieved through class lines, its just going to take a while.
Tilen
Scylla