Rifleman Archive
Thread: Eyeshot/ Headshot DPS Test In Pve/ PvP, how to guide
Adding to my thought in case it was unclear, hypthetically:
rifleman = 4000 / 10 = 400 damage per shot times 3.0 speed
versus
bounty hunter = 4000 / 10 = 400 damage per shot times 1.5 speed
DPS is always measure per time, not per shot, to take into account the speed of the weapon.
Meyree wrote:I DID give you numbers. It's buried among your tons of flames in the other thread, Noules.
What are you five? You spell pretty well for a five year old.
YOU said REPEATEDLY that the rifleman's mind cost counts against him in this problem.
YOU said REPEATEDLY that the whole problem is that eyeshot doesn't drain from the mind
Now that you are asked to actually do some work for what you want, you contradict yourself.
Do youself a favor and shutup while you're ahead.
Yes, the rifleman's mind cost counts against the rifleman.
Yes, the problem is that the BH's Eyeshot does not use much mind.
No, this does not mean that when a rifleman duels a BH, the rifleman's HAM costs are somehow caused by the BH. If a rifleman 'duels' a lair and uses HAM, is the lair doing mind damage to the rifleman? I don't see this as a contradiction at all. Eyeshot is NOT solely an issue with riflemen, it's with pretty much every non-BH in the game.
I *still* don't know what you're expecting people to -measure-. We KNOW what the expected damage per shot is given the weapon stats and the special. We KNOW what the delay of the special should be.
You still have not explained how this is relevant to the question, 'What is the problem with Eyeshot taking primarily mind'? Or, rather, you claim that Eyeshot taking mind pool will kill BHs as a class, but you have not provided any reasoning why this is so (other than 'needing to heal', which every class needs).
The reason for the study the way i did it is that it should come out to the same ratio as DPS. I know, DPS = Damage Per Second. I know this.
Nonetheless, measuring the ratio of damage per fight should give the EXACT same results as measuring the ratio of actual DPS, as long as it is against the same type of mob with no resists or external factors involved.
Maybe I'm wrong there. Go through the same thing, calculating DPS, and see if it's the same ratio. SWG is a new system, so I could easily be mistaken, guess. Nonetheless, the ratio of HB mind damage to Rifleman mind damage SHOULD be there same whether calculated as DPS or Damage Per Fight.
Don't argue that it's not without testing it, please, because there's no way we could argue that either way. Just leave it as that.
Also, if you don't think that the damage someone does to themselves in a PvP fight counts against them, or counts FOR the person they're against (by aiding their cause which is winning the fight), then I'd be surprised if you EVER won a fight against ANYONE of higher or equal ability as you.
Seriously, that's the WHOLE SWG PvP combat system. That's WHY BH hits all three pools. That's WHY TK hits all three pools.
Let's say carbineer A pulls out his weapon, and starts hitting action and draining action, for example. A smart BH will hit his action. Hell, a smart ANYONE would try to use the damage their oponent does to themselves against them.
That;s the only reason BH will ALWAYS win in a fight against riflemen, really. Well, or pistoleer, or carbineer, or melee... It gets more fuzzy against CHs or Commandos, as they are our natural counters.
Yes, that mind damage the rifleman is doing to himself does help the BH kill him when the BH is hitting the mind, and it DOES count against the rifleman in a contest of mind damage versus mind damage. The only way it wouldn't is if it didn't happen.
Keep in mind too, that this is a specific study. We're not simply determining the abilities of a BH using eyeshot. Riflemen have the biggest problem with eyeshot. Riflemen are the most vocal about it. Why? Because riflemen are damaging their mind at the same time we are. This is a specific study of mind damage against mind damage. It SHOULD be counted.
Also, if you were so dedicated to your cause, and thought about it, you would wanted it to be counted, because it helps back your argument about the whole thing being unbalanced. Why do you not want it specifically measured? That's counter productive. Are you afraid that some of the claims you have made will turn out untrue? I honestly don't get the way you contradict yourself.
Everyone hates BH other than BH. We're basically PK'ers. I didn't realize that until I did this study. I thought we were supposed to be the best in ALL combat overall. We're not. We're the best at PvP, just like commandos, I bet, would prove to be the best at PvE much in the same way if they were ever studied.
I'd actually like to know that.
So, here I am, someone who initially didn't like any PvP sitting with alot of time invested in a PvP focused profession. I'm not giving up my work, so I'll go with it.
The fact that BH basicaller = PK explains why everyone hates us though. It's part of Raph's design philosophy that there SHOULD be PK'ers that everyone hates. It's healthy for the community when you see it from a bigger picture. If you argue with that, I'll lay the smackdown by giving you a URL to Raph's personal website where he says that clearly.
My concern is the game here. If I wanted a lack of balance and an instant "I win" card for all PvP, then I **edit** sure wouldn't be a rebel. I'd be another chicken shat with an AT-ST pet that one hit incaps everybody who glances at me sideways.
Let's not argue the AT-ST thing. They suck. I hate them like you hate BH, but I accept the fact that they are MEANT to be so powerful, and if I argue it, I don't argue what special move the AT-ST happens to be using, I argue its design concept as a whole.
You're really shooting yourselves in the foot by trying to nerf eyeshot, because if they DO nerf it, they'll only add something else to make us just as capable to whip your butt just as quickly. What you really don't like is the design concept for BHs. I feel your pain there, as someone who, until eyeshot NEVER won a PvP fight.
Says alot, don't it?
Just stay off my throat through this, and I'll stay off yours, but please remember one thing:
You know all their is to know abou tthe rifleman profession. Nice. I applaud your efforts.
Don't pretend to know all there is to know about the BH profession anymore. People look stupid when they do that. Just do as I do. I admit I know jack about rifles. Don't be afraid of what you don't know. Be afraid of what you're not willing to learn. And for the love of God, stop worrying about what other people think damnit.
And by the way, the reason I never won a PvP fight before eyeshot is only because I could never convince an imp to put away the derned AT-ST and have a fun, good fight before that.
Coincidence, really.
If we go back in time a little it's kinda like "Nice, buddy! You killed an apprentice gunfighter with an AT-ST! Hey, I bet you could whipe out an ant hill with an A-Bomb too!"
And to counter the generalizations and prejudice you are about to show, no I don't always use eyeshot in PvP, now that I found out it CAN actually be fun, and no, I still don't win every time, even without an AT-ST involved.
Also, it's not the actual DPS or damage per fight we're interested in... It's the ratio between those for BH and Riflemen. That ratio should be 1:2 in favor of riflemen in PvE and 2:1 in favor of BH in PvP whether calculating DPS or damage per fight.
It's the RATIO, not the actual DPS. Or, you could obtain the DS difference, record who it's in favor for, and do the same for both PvE and PvP.
The idea of the study is to bring a comparison of mind damage abilities and downfalls from both PvE AND PvP between BH and Riflemen, and then compare the figures from PvE to PvP to show that what I say, riflemen being stronger than BH in PvE and BH being stronger in PvP, is absolutely true.
Once you see that is true, then you will understand that it's the design of BH overall that you have a problem with, not just eyeshot, and you'll come to the same conclusion as me that if they change eyeshot, you'll just have a problem with something else. It would only be a matter of time, but it would still be BH.
Sorry if I don't state things like this clearly, but I assume some things can be left to be read between the lines. Bad habbit of mine, I guess.
You're not measuring 'damage per fight' in the PvE experiment, or at least, you aren't describing it so.I don't see what relation that experimenthas with the PvP experiment. Your argument would be somewhat reasonable -if- what you ended up measuring was the damage on the mob versus the damage on the player. If you did that, it would be obvious that the rifleman has a disadvantage because they end up using mind for their specials. Moreover, this is highly dependent on the strength of the mob since you get several shots at the beginning effectively for free. It would be most obvious with strong mobs with enough pool to make the initial hit factor relatively small. It's also dependent on plenty of other factors, such as the range and the HAM distribution.
Second, your experiment is -highly- dependent on the weapons used. As I said before, the rifleman is either using a pre-nerf T21 or a sliced, powered up laser or post-nerf T21. You're using a scatter that apparently has a max damage of about 112. One is at the very top end of the weapon spectrum, while the other is pretty worthless.
Third, the accuracy on both sides strongly affects the outcome. This makes range extremely important to the result, as does moving, etc. as well as the ranged defense values on both sides.
Again, you need to clearly describe what you're measuring. Your statement on BH/Riflemen -dps- was incorrect, by your own admission.
My point isn't that the self-damage from specials don't count against the user. The point is that the damage is not from anything the BH did. Again, if a rifleman uses HAM on a lair, it doesn't mean the lair is doing the damage to the rifleman.
I have no objection to the HAM use being specifically measured, as long as all the variables are accounted for: stats, weapon stats, special being used. What I object to is your assertion that the BH DPS somehow increases in PvP relative to rifleman. Not only is that highly misleading, it's wrong.
I'm not sure why you assume that I personally have something against BHs or Eyeshot. I don't think eyeshot has ever really been a factor in the PvP battles I've fought. If there's something I dislike personally, it's CHs due to the melee damage multiplier, and flame/LLC doing melee damage. I do just fine in PvP, no need to feel sorry for me. I wasn't really concerned about Eyeshot until this was posted here. The reason I think eyeshot should take mind pool is for balance purposes. This is particularly evident now, when there is no means to heal the mind pool.
It seems interesting that you seem to acknowledge that if Eyeshot did take mind, it would be a 'nerf', and it would prevent BHs from 'whipping' people. I don't have a problem with the damage (it's basically a HS3 for a pistol), it just seems unreasonable that only one class can consistently do mind damage without using up their mind pool.
I never said that I knew everything about BHs. But I do know something, and I'll speak to the best of my knowledge. I have a pretty good idea on the general function of the combat system, due to testing with the specials and accuracy, and I don't have any reason to believe that BHs are somehow exempt (I do have evidence that they do follow the system like everyone else).
As for staying off your throat, I have no issue with keeping the discussion civil. I only replied to your personal attacks on me. Further, my single biggest pet peeve is someone providing incorrect information to people. You have the right to remain ignorant, but you do not have the right to spread that ignorance. If I readyou (or anyone) post something which I think is incorrect or misleading, I'll generally feel compelled to point out what I feel are the inaccuracies, or provide clarification on the subject. If I post something wrong or misleading, I certainly expect the same from everyone else.
Realize I'm not flaming you here, I'm just criticizing methodology, but:
Nonetheless, measuring the ratio of damage per fight should give the EXACT same results as measuring the ratio of actual DPS, as long as it is against the same type of mob with no resists or external factors involved.
Maybe I'm wrong there.
Yes, you are wrong here. Let me do a "thought experiment" with you.
Let's say our Rifleman does 6000 damage in 60 seconds (100 dps) and does that in 10 shots (600/shot).
Let's say our Bounty Hunter does 6000 damage in 60 seconds (100 dps) and does that in 20 shots (300/shot).
In this thought experiment:
* the bounty hunter and the rifleman did the same "damage per fight"
* the bounty hunter and the rifleman had the same "damage per second"
* the bounty hunter did only 50% of the damage per shot that the rifleman did
When you started this thread, you described your ratio as "the total damage done in the fight divided by the total shots fired". Without controling for the duration of the fight (ie, did both fights last the exact same amount of time) you cannot calculate "damage per second". Since you are killing a mob, you also have a variation in the number of hitpoints to contend with, making even "damage per fight" a little fuzzy, but let's look past that since you took some steps to controling that variable.
With that data, it is then probably fair to look at "damage per fight" ... but it is misleading to suggest that "damage per shot" will run in a proportionate ratio when comparing a slow weapon that hits harder (rifle) to a fast weapon that hits lighter (pistol).
It would be easy to claim "the rifleman was doing twice as much damage" when in actuality they had the same damage output.
Also, it's not the actual DPS or damage per fight we're interested in... It's the ratio between those for BH and Riflemen. That ratio should be 1:2 in favor of riflemen in PvE and 2:1 in favor of BH in PvP whether calculating DPS or damage per fight.
You are mistaken here as well. The reason we want the actual DPS or the actual damage per fight is so that this figure can serve as a yardstick to determine just the ratio you are describing. You then state your assumption that you are trying to prove, but that the data doesn't seem to fit (and that you've provided insufficient data for an objective third party to confirm your assertion.)
If a rifleman wins the DPS by 2:1 in PVE or vice versa it should be the exact same in PVP, just reduced 75%.
You must have an error somewhere in your test, or there must be some bug at work (AP not calculating correctly?).
Meyree,
There are a few holes in your write up
"Speed mods. Bounty hunters get +10 to +15 speed mod through each skill box, while riflemen get +6 to their speed box, plus the scatter pistol is a faster weapon."
The rifleman speed skills give 10 rifle speed per box and 20 for reaching master. At the Master lvl a rifleman can fire a 5 second weopon at 1 second per shot which is the speed cap for ANY Weopon. A master rifleman can fire a t21 at about 1 shot every 2 seconds at the master lvl (exception beeing using a speed powerup to get the speed down to around 5).
"Now, what I found, and excuse me for not bringing all the papers to work with me, is that in PvE my rifleman buddy was doing twice the damage I was. Please note, if you don't know by now, that this is a comparison of mind damage."
It is possible by using a T21 with heavy peircing a rifleman could do double the mind dmg of eyeshot mainly due to the large peircing bonus. The part you are overlooking is "Sustained minddps". You can only fire around 8-10 Headshots as a master rifleman and then you are out of mind pool. This is taking into account a large mind pool and maxxed out focus/willpower.The bounty hunter can shoot almost limitless eyeshotswith just a couple medic skills.
If eyeshot had a higher ham cost and used the mind poolfor its ham cost. I don't think people would think it was sooverpowered.
/agree Eltestor
The problem is not Damage Per Second or Damage Per Shot, its the fact that even with a low HAM weapon like the DLT20a a rifleman has a finite number of shots for ANY special because they all use mind.
A BH can fire eyeshots as long as they have mind to heal their action pool. SO if they can get 50 eyeshots for 1k action, then hit a stim B and use 50 mind, heal up 400 action, they can get another 20 or so eyeshots in. Repeat ad nauseum.
A rifleman with a comparable weapon that gets them 50 headshots for 1k mind, is done. No Stim to heal up the mind pool and continue fighting. That's it, FIN, bye, see ya.
Add this to the fact that a BH or enemy Rifleman is going to be hitting you in the head & depleting your mind pool as well... See where this is going?
THAT'S the problem with eyeshot. Its damage, speed, etc fine... But it can be spammed virtually for - ever. The BH profession is not that far off of balance, it really isnt. Except the LLC and eyeshot, the other skills are not unreasonable.
Well number are great and all, I really don't think your going to convince any rifleman on this issue because every rifleman knows DPS isn't the issue. How about you calculate damage per minute, or perhaps even how much damage over a span of a few minutes?
Let's see, assuming completely hypothetically that I shot HS2 at 3 seconds per shot, with max mind stats (no buffs) thats nearly 100 mind per shot, AND i maxed out my mind pool at 1100 (which most people don't for obvious reasons), I should be able to do 33 seconds of combat, 11 shots, lets say for an average of 800 damage a shot. Good I've done 8800 mind damage in half a minute! This assumes a perfect world where I don't miss and the monster hasn't already teleported and done 1000 damage to me.
Now a BH uses eyeshot, let's play along and assume he shoots at 3 second intervals (completely hypothetical for comparison reasons) and his shots only average 400. Well, to even match the Riflemans damage it would take 66 seconds in which we know for a fact the BH won't run out of HAM bar.
So now the rifleman sits down for two whole mintutes (and we'll assume it takes that long to get 1100 mind back... right). In that time the Rifleman has done his impressively quick 8800 mind damage, however a BH has just healed his action bar and in that same three minutes could do roughly over 24000 mind damage. Do these numbers surprise you a bit? Does that wake you up from your "BH why me!?" dream world?
So after 6 minutes has gone by a rifleman has done 17k mind damage and is ready for combat again, and a BH has done almost 50k mind damage. So you see, even if a rifleman can do twice the damage you can do in the same amount of time, you can do more than 3 times that damage in a realistic situation.
Stop me if you don't like the truth, please. Yes I know we can get buff's and eat food to help our regen, or perhaps take along an entertainer, but why should our class be crippled so bad to start with? Why should a BH be able to do this much more mind damage than rifleman?
And yes it all comes down to the simple fact that EyeShot drain action primarily. That's all. So simple. And every BH that complains that it shouldn't drain mind is simply showing how much of a crutch that move is for him/her.
/rifleman rant