Rifleman Archive
Thread: Got flamed on Commando forum for posting this, thought it made sense
Incidentally, I feel sorry for the 1% of the Commando population that chose the profession for some intellectual reason and weren't simply following the trend-of-the-month. Now they're lumped in with a bunch of d00dz who just want to play Star Wars Quake.
Eltestor wrote:
"I’m not 100% convinced that bounty hunter should be more powerful than a pistoleer in all situations. That being said, I think they need some more class specific functionality and abilities as opposed to borrowing existing moves/mods from pistoleer/carbineer. I’ll investigate this and see what I can come up with to improve the class."
The above statement was made by Q-c3po in the combat proposal thread he made. NO WHERE in that post did q-c3po say BH spend more points they should overpower everyone in all situations. This is something fabricated by some of these people on the boards who want an unfair edge in pvp.
Enough of the I spent more points I deserve to be overpowered crap. The ONLY proffession that is beeing designed to overpowered compared tothe other proffessions is the JEDI.
I like it when they use the skill point arguement. I then point out that by their logic a Master Artisan, Weaponsmith, Entertainer should have a 50/50 chance of taking out the BH. They used the same amount of skill points as the BH.
Not raelistic since those profs aren't combat classes but if comparing straight skill points they are equal. As has been pointed out by a number of people, the correct comparison would be combat skill points. In that case a Master Rifleman, Pistoleer, Carbineer, or Commando uses more skill points in a combat skill.
A BH is a jack of all trades and as such is a master of none. A BH with a pistol should loose to a Master Pistoleer. The Pistoleer has far more experience witha pistol than the BH. The advantage of the BH is they can switch to other weapons. Their carbine or heavy weapon to change these odds. But the BH should not routinely beat a Master with their own weapon unless the Master is incompetent. If they do routinely do this then the problem is with class balance.
Eltestor wrote:
"I’m not 100% convinced that bounty hunter should be more powerful than a pistoleer in all situations. That being said, I think they need some more class specific functionality and abilities as opposed to borrowing existing moves/mods from pistoleer/carbineer. I’ll investigate this and see what I can come up with to improve the class."
The above statement was made by Q-c3po in the combat proposal thread he made. NO WHERE in that post did q-c3po say BH spend more points they should overpower everyone in all situations. This is something fabricated by some of these people on the boards who want an unfair edge in pvp.
Enough of the I spent more points I deserve to be overpowered crap. The ONLY proffession that is beeing designed to overpowered compared tothe other proffessions is the JEDI.
You know what's funny, sometimes on the BH board you can find some of them saying they should be able to beat a Jedi.
Hoabob wrote:
It takes less then half the points to Master Riflemen as it does Commando. A Master Commando has enough points to get the mastery of one more profession while a Master Riflemen can take 2 more. If the Riflemen were to spend all his points in combat professions he could become Master Rifle/Carbine/Pistol. The Commando would have to choose between Rifle, Carbine, or Pistol.
This would make the only viable full combat profession Master Rifle/Carbine/Pistol since BH and Commando would be an ineffecient use of points.
Who in God's name would take master pistoleer/carbineer/rifleman? That is the dumbest suggestion I have ever heard. You would have 4 points left over, so you could at least get aim....
No one would be stupid enough to waste their time on this. Master rifleman with some pistoleer? Sure. Pistoleer with Rifleman? Uh-uh. Not until ranged to hit bonuses are modified. Carbineer with something to make them useful? You betcha. Unforunately, none of these weapon modifiers stack. What pure combat oriented pistoleer would NOT pick 0/0/4/3 bounty hunter? I know I would - hell, I've practically mastered scout from my passive use, imagine how fast someone who was grinding it could make it to master.
Who cares about all the points it costs? It's about spending hard earned EXPERIENCE points that makes the difference in the difficulty of a profession. Everyone gets250 skill points, you DON'T HAVE TO EARN THEM.
Look at my sig, you will see that I have taken Smuggler (which requires Pistol IV and unarmed IV) and Rifleman. Big whoopty **edit**, I spent14 less skill points than a commando did become a novice of his profession. I'm not saying I don't want commando to be bad ass - they're freaking commandos. And if I'm not mistaken, they have to be master marksmen on top of it. Oh no! They're HINDERED because they have to know how to use a pistol, rifle and carbine. Oh no! They get suppression fire 1! Oh no! They get warning shot!
And guess what? Grinding through Marksman is a joke! "Oh, I had to get all the way to master in one of the base professions, I should be able to slaughter someone who has spent more time and earned more xp than me because I did this" The only real "grind" is the 4th tier skills, and the only one people complain about is rifle! And because we have a "gimped out" T21, getting EVERY box in rifleman is a grind. It's been 3 weeks and I'm close to getting my sniper title,and I play at least 6 hours a day.
Now, the unarmed part of it I don't quite understand, but I'm sure there is some real-world rationale that just doesn't stand up to the game system. I think a commando should just require master marksman. But that won't happen, becuase then people wouldn't quite be able to scream about how uber they are supposed to be compared to other elite classes because they had to spend points on a "worthless" tree. How about this? Commando + TKA. Why not?
Back to the quip about skill points, I'll make another quote so you don't have to scroll back up:
"It takes less then half the points to Master Riflemen as it does Commando"
It costs 3.8 million rifle experience and 415k combat experience (which means 4.15 million total weapons xp UNLESS you choose to also traverse the ranged support line, which would make 445k combat xp to also get ranged support IV)for a rifleman to get master rifleman. Well guess what? That's the only time a rifleman is really competative versus a player that knows what he is doing.
Did you know that it takes the same amount of Generic Heavy Weapons experience to specialize in flamethrower or acid rifle as it takes to traverse ONE of any of the 3 Rifle weapons experience trees?
Did you know that the Commando tree that requires Combat experience requires a total of 360k combat xp compared to the 415k required in rifleman?
Did you know that after the Field Tactics tree, a Commando needs 3.425 million heavy weapons experience to master compared to 3.8 million rifle experience needed for master rifleman?
And how long does it take a Commando at 0/0/1/0 to wax a master rifleman? 3 shots oruntil he hits? And how long does it take for a pure 4/0/2/2 rifleman to wax a commando?
Did you know that although the only prerequisite to become a rifleman is Rifle IV, most riflemen also take ranged support IV and all of those that I know also take Scout: Exploration IV? And how many riflemen here take some pistol skill so they can have a better chance to survive point blank encounters?
It costs 112 skill points to become a novice commando. It costs 87 skill points to reach Novice Rifleman when you incorporate some of the necessary skills I mentioned (Pistol III for body shot 2, Ranged Support IV for suppression fire, Warning Shot and Aim and Scout: Exploration IV for terrain navigation, burst run efficiency and mask scent), no frills. That's a mere 25 skill point difference, if you wanted to know.
So tell me ass-wipe, what DO YOU thinkthe prerequisites to become a competant, effective rifleman are?
And the same **edit** goes for you pansy ass bounty hunters whining about why they have to be able to survive by themselves in the wild, and why they can't be Image Designers like their gay lovers.
Hoabob wrote:
Commandos don't get greater versatility they're built for close range combat and damage, nothing more. They do not get equivelant bonuses to speed and accuracy and a Master Commando is not as quick and as accurate as a Master Riflemen. If you supplythe weaponry I'm willing toshow you this difference.Commandos do not get state changes, HAM specific attacks,or Armor Piercing on non-expendable weapons. Riflemen have these advantages and larger AoE attacks, more defensive mods, and specials that work beyond melee range.
That may well be, however, if you get your one lucky shot, it doesn't matter how quick your opponent is with a rifle, he is dead most likely. Cammandos may not have state changes, but they do have HAM specific attacks (ie. Flamethrowers), AP attacks (Launcher pistols and other high damage/high end heavy weapons), and last I checked, Particle cannons (not sure of the actual name) has a radius of 6m, while not much, a group of people standing within 6m taking 2k-3k damage seems like an area attack to me. (Don't quote me on that as I am not a commando and don't use such weaponry).
The Acid Rifle is not a weapon that Commandos use. It does far less damage then the Flame Thrower and a Master Riflemen will outdamage a Master Commando using this. The Flame Thrower doesn't have specials outside 16 meters and fires once every 4 seconds even at the master level. Grenades have a range of 20 meters and require about 3 factory trips to make a 5 charge weapon so you don't see many of these.The expendable Heavy Weapons can be fired at 64 meters but with extremly high penalties to accuracy but you have to be immobile and kneeling. Their optimum ranges are about melee range and vary between 10 - 30 meters. Both these weapons have extremly high HAM costs and fire slowly even at the Master level. They have no styles so what you see in accuracy is what you get, no strange pistollike accuracy issues here.
Again, due to the extreme high damage of these weapons, you don't NEED special attacks for them, they ARE special attacks. We as riflemen (or at least me) are crying that they nerfed us for doing 3k shots, and yet you Commandoes do 15k hit shots and are getting away with it. It isn't fair, it shouldn't be fair, but it shouldn't be that unfair either.
SocialConformer wrote:
And the same **edit** goes for you pansy ass bounty hunters whining about why they have to be able to survive by themselves in the wild, and why they can't be Image Designers like their gay lovers.
Why don't you tell us how you REALLY feel SC? I mean come on, don't hold back, let it all out 
I know the frustration though. I have a BH guildie who wiped me using eyeshot, hit me about 6 times and alI had gotten off was a mindshot2 and almost a mindshot1, and it was the first time I had even seen it in action. Now whenever he mentions eyeshot I tell him where to stick it.
I just hope these combat changes they're talking about make come kind of difference.
Hi Riflemen, This is in response to the post of socialconformer from a commando:
First on the total combat needed for both profession:
415k for Master rifleman
400k for master commando (not 360k social, you forgot the 40k we need to become a novice commando. ) In fact, its the worst of all, because while amassing this xp, we need to use a non-heavy weapon (cause we cannot use one yet) meaning the 400k weapon xp we make while earning those 40k combat xp goes down the drain, we don't need it. Its not HW xp.
While at this, the rifleman needs 125k rifle xp, attainable in 2 hours easily with snorbal spawn on lok, and they are easy as hell ( I earned all my rifleman xp before I dropped it (was 3/1/3/1) with snorbs....all you need is WS and a Spraystick....
I agree wuth you that a rifleman without ranged support is a dead one, we should count it toward the xp needed to master rifleman.
For exploration, rifleman needs it, se we should count it toward the point needed, but as a commando doesn't have exploration as a prereq, we should add it to the commando total.
Be it a commando or a rifleman, weapon xp is acquired roughly at the same speed. So rifleman is a bit longer to master than commando. (around 400k xp more I think, like maybe 7-8 hours of grinding.)
As far as the skill point go should a master commando be stronger than a master rifleman? Yes, taking into account the rifleman has no other skills. You're at roughly 150 points left for rifleman versus 60 points left for commando. its only logical the commando is stronger, or else, who would be commando?
BUT, then you add other profession to the rifleman...... The commando can master TKA or Smuggler. Smuggler in combat is rather useless. Melee is also, but the TKA has nice defensive bonuses (commando has none, rifleman have rather good defensive bonuses)
So, the majority of commando are gonna get a couple of med skills, a bit of CH, or pistoleer for the LP....
A rifleman can master doctor or CH, as example......Hell, a rifleman can master commando.....lol.......(without exploration though)
In PVP, a master rifleman/master CH will own a commando (stick pets on us, we have no warning shot with a Flamer, they shield you while you take our mind out)
A master rifleman/master doctor will own a master commando, providing the commando has no doctor buffs (the rifleman will surely have them, because they do it to themselves.)
Master rifleman/big dabbling in Combat medic will be a very worthy opponent.
My advice to riflemen is this, I was one of yours for the first 3 months of launch, and a big problem rifleman have is they want to be equals to BH and commando by just being riflemen. Then they want to be able to acquire any other profession in the game they wish.
You guys are broken, sadly, and they should have never nerfed the T21 (one of the reasons I quit rifleman), but you shouldn't be able to compete with 150 skill points left in the bank against someone who has only 60.
When you are master rifleman, and bring your final 250 points templat, with your big doc buffs or your 2 grauls maulers against my 250 point commando template with a bit of medic and exploration 3......you'll own me as often as I own you.
That, in my opinion is balance....
That is just my opinion though......
"In PVP, a master rifleman/master CH will own a commando (stick pets on us, we have no warning shot with a Flamer, they shield you while you take our mind out)"
Nope sorry, you can hit us for over 3k dmg from 50 meters with an acid rifle. You are joking about the ch pets right? commandos can kill them with ease.
"A master rifleman/master doctor will own a master commando, providing the commando has no doctor buffs (the rifleman will surely have them, because they do it to themselves.)"
Sorry even fully buffed a commando can 1 shot a rifleman with an acid rifle or flamethrower. Maybe if they remove the 2.5 times dmg penalty you can argue this.
"Master rifleman/big dabbling in Combat medic will be a very worthy opponent"
The combat medic part is true the rifle part is'nt. We could possible defeat a commando if we unequipped the rifle all together and just used mind poison then burst run. We are better off not using a rifle at all with this template.
Personally besides actually becoming a bh, the only template i have found that works (reliably)versus a commando is tka/combat medic. The unarmed toughness lowerscommando dmg by 50% and composite armor stacks with it. Since a tka can survive the 1 shot power of a commando it gives you time to poison the commando and run.
"I’m not 100% convinced that bounty hunter should be more powerful than a pistoleer in all situations. That being said, I think they need some more class specific functionality and abilities as opposed to borrowing existing moves/mods from pistoleer/carbineer. I’ll investigate this and see what I can come up with to improve the class."
The above statement was made by Q-c3po in the combat proposal thread he made. NO WHERE in that post did q-c3po say BH spend more points they should overpower everyone in all situations. This is something fabricated by some of these people on the boards who want an unfair edge in pvp.
Enough of the I spent more points I deserve to be overpowered crap. The ONLY proffession that is beeing designed to overpowered compared tothe other proffessions is the JEDI.
Social - I use the exact same logic when arguing how Commando's (and more especially, BH's) should not be completely uber because "they spend more skill points".
and just to point out to the BH's - YOU DO NOT SPEND ALL YOUR SKILL POINTS ON COMBAT SKILLS! you have one full line of Investigation skills ON TOP OF MASTER SCOUT - which really has no bonus to combat, except for being able to run faster and hit creatures more effectively.
social - you forgot to factor in the numbers for obtaining Master Marksman under rifleman (it's the only class that stacks our skills at all, and is necessary to really become "true" master rifleman).
we need over 4 million xp for rifle alone, same with Pistoleer and Carbineer.
how does a BH figure that 2.7 million MIXED weapons xp should equal 4.2 million XP dedicated to a specific weapon??? I really can't figure out your guys' reasoning.
Commando's - you need pure combat xp/skill points, yeah, you should do uber dmg. u don't get the benefits of special missions that BH's get. but you also have some skill points left over to dabble, so it's not AS restricting. you should not be doing melee dmg with your weapons (obviously, but that's just a bug). I figure if a rifleman can stay out of 45m he should have a pretty decent chance against you. (at the master level).
some welpy 1-1-1-1 commando should have no chance against a master rifleman if both play their class properly and have no surprise/edge in the duel/battle. two masters (master marksman for rifle as well) in a duel? assuming they both play their class PERFECTLY, it should be a **edit** close fight. probably resulting in both bleeding to incap, whoever gets up first wins. at long range a rifle should have the advantage, at medium to short range the commando should have a major advantage. both should have a fighting chance - neither should be completely uber over the other.
this (imo)alsogoes for *master combat class* vs BH. each class should have to actually work for their win against a master of a different class, and no class should be the master of all combat situations.
Good Post Fred, but I got to call off the hate.
For you to presume I left rifleman for commando to be uber is presomptuous. I was a commando Rifleman. I'm near master, that means I have been working on it for quite some time as unarmed XP for commando is the toughest to get in game (Along with BH investigation line).
Now, for the CH/rifleman template. The 3000 hit from a HAR, I,ll grant you is overpowered. The thing is, its a known bug, and Commando dont care if the remove it, its not a nerf, its a fix, our weapon wont be considered melee anymore. That hit will be like 1000 after the fix.
Now, 1000 / 2 (50% armor) = 500.
500 / 2 (All non-charged commando weapons are AP 0, All armors are AR 1) = 250, which is a normal hit.
Second of all, HAR miss 7 times out of 10 even at HAR 4...........
A Graul as 10k HP, we hit it for 1.2k roughly in pvp, our DOT starts at 1.2k.....7 seconds between ticks, that Graul will tank us for nearly 1 minute while you pick us off from a distance....Imagine 2....... I got owned by a master CH/master Rifleman like that, Am I mad, hell no, he was the better man that night.
You say pet dont hit mind.....In my opinion its not important, pets deal lousy damage anyway, they are tanks.......
Doc/Rifleman is a good combo, cause only 20% of people go to PVP with buff....sure if you defend a town against a raid, everyone will have buffs, they came prepared, but run overt around the countryside and pick off lone opposing faction members with your template buffed, they will not be, you will own them, bottom line.... PVP isn't just happening in Theed and Anchorhead........
CM/Rifleman, simple, mind poison, 2 rifle shots...game over, they complete each other pretty well, and is an incredible asset. (my best friend in game has that template, and he is very good.)
Notice also that I agree with the T21 being fixed, and the rifleman being fixed as a whole........but understand this, if a rifleman and a commando are equal in fighting, no one will ever be a commando, as frankly, the freedom rifleman gives you is way too good.................
As far as going ranger, well, I applaud your RP choice, but by selecting a non-combat class, you should't be as strong as a combat class......
RyunosukeKnT wrote:
That may well be, however, if you get your one lucky shot, it doesn't matter how quick your opponent is with a rifle, he is dead most likely. Cammandos may not have state changes, but they do have HAM specific attacks (ie. Flamethrowers), AP attacks (Launcher pistols and other high damage/high end heavy weapons), and last I checked, Particle cannons (not sure of the actual name) has a radius of 6m, while not much, a group of people standing within 6m taking 2k-3k damage seems like an area attack to me. (Don't quote me on that as I am not a commando and don't use such weaponry).
Again, due to the extreme high damage of these weapons, you don't NEED special attacks for them, they ARE special attacks. We as riflemen (or at least me) are crying that they nerfed us for doing 3k shots, and yet you Commandoes do 15k hit shots and are getting away with it. It isn't fair, it shouldn't be fair, but it shouldn't be that unfair either.
Flame Throwers have no HAM Specific attacks and Commandos don't get special moves for the Launcher Pistol (Commandos must train in other professions to get LP special moves). The other weapons are expendable, very innacurate, short ranged,and slow. A Riflemen will be able to firea much larger AoE attack at 64 meters and do it 3-4 times faster and withequal Armor Piercing.
We both know the 15k hits only happen under specific circumstances and what the Devs are planning to do about it. The pre-nerfT-21 in the hands of a Master Riflemen is not a comparable weapon with a Flame Thrower in the hands of a Master Commando. The T-21 is faster,higher AP, longer ranged,has a larger AoE, and can preform state changes. You can't just compare per hit damage to find balance.
Also, I see this often on the boards all over, many people say "The LLC is better than the T21".... Well, is there a dev somewhere that said that the T21 have to be the best weapon in game?
I always thought the LLC was SUPPOSED to be the best weapon in game, I know I never asked for my flamer to be better than a LLC.....but hey, maybe I missed something