Rifleman Archive
Thread: Does Cover actually do anything?
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IdiotFool
Thu Aug 19, 2004 2:04 pm
#1
I've tried using Cover and I've compared it to just being prone. I get the same number of shots off in either case before the monster's aggro. I'm only Novice Rifleman, but is there a point to using it, ever? Thanks.
XaverriJade7
Thu Aug 19, 2004 2:13 pm
#2
Supposedly, it increases your ranged defense. I dunno though... 
Ackehece
Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:04 pm
#3
IdiotFool wrote:
I've tried using Cover and I've compared it to just being prone. I get the same number of shots off in either case before the monster's aggro. I'm only Novice Rifleman, but is there a point to using it, ever? Thanks.
It does not affect the performance of concealment and single draw, it is a skill that affects ranged defence. When in cover it is meant to reduce the number of attacks that hit you and or reduce the damage that does hit you. It so far is either broken or it is very hard to qauntify how well it works.
VacaXXX
Thu Aug 19, 2004 5:47 pm
#4
lol, it makes you not be able to move until you have sneak, very affective, if you could just get the enemy to do it...........
Vaelorn
Thu Aug 19, 2004 10:34 pm
#5
Well, I know two things about Cover that I absolutely hate.
1) You cannot Peace while in Cover. If I'm sniping a MOB, I want to stop shooting when I want to stop shooting. Why does being in Cover prevent you from stopping your attack? 
2) Apparently, Cover also prevens the use of "/tellpet" for issuing pet commands. If my Creature Handler is in Cover, his hotkeys using "/tellpet" do not work at all, but he can still issue pet commands via spacial chat.
I never use Cover for anything. In fact, after getting Conceal Shot in the first box, I completely ignored that skill line while I maxed out the other two rifle exp boxes; I actually waited to train until I had enough rifle exp banked to train both box 2 *and* box 3 at the same time, because it wasn't worth the trouble of a transport ticket. The only reason I had to even bother with the rest of that skill line is because it is required to master the profession. That statement alone makes it painfully clear that the skill needs to be fixed so that it is useful, or completely replaced with something else. 
IdiotFool
Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:55 am
#6
The trouble is, I think the initial code was modified Tumble To Prone, so it's sort of tumbling. You can still do Rifleman skills, but not much else, which is stupid.
Thanks for the replies. I saw that my defense went up, but I was pretty sure I saw that it also boosted your skills of concealment. Especially when a modifier to the skill is called "sneak". Doesn't really seem like it should mean "Turn the air around your body damage resistant!" like it currently does...
Next Q: What does concealing shot do? Anything? Didn't do jack diddly to NPCs that I tested, they ran right for me. Of course, this was Mellichae, a dark Jedi or Sith from Pub 10, so I'm not really certain on how good this skill is against normal critters.
Thanks again!
dimmu-borgir
Fri Aug 20, 2004 4:25 am
#7
Vaelorn wrote:Well, You cannot Peace while in Cover. If I'm sniping a MOB, I want to stop shooting when I want to stop shooting.
ive never had trouble with /peace while taking cover, then again, i never used it untill i had the sneak ability, so that might have soemthing to do with it. hell. i /peace all the time while sniping off atsts while taking cover.
IdiotFool wrote:I saw that my defense went up, but I was pretty sure I saw that it also boosted your skills of concealment. Especially when a modifier to the skill is called "sneak". Doesn't really seem like it should mean "Turn the air around your body damage resistant!" like it currently does...Next Q: What does concealing shot do? Anything? Didn't do jack diddly to NPCs that I tested, they ran right for me. Of course, this was Mellichae, a dark Jedi or Sith from Pub 10, so I'm not really certain on how good this skill is against normal critters.Thanks again!
ranged defense does not lower damage, it pretty much just makes you a bit harder to hit, thus, cover makes you harder to hit.
concealshot will damage an opponent and they will not agro untill you: miss enough times or the agro you as normal, although, i have not tried to concealshot any fs npcs lately, so, im not sure if it works against them or not.
Message Edited by dimmu-borgir on 08-20-2004 04:31 AM
Ariven
Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:16 am
#8
dimmu-borgir wrote:
Vaelorn wrote:Well, You cannot Peace while in Cover. If I'm sniping a MOB, I want to stop shooting when I want to stop shooting.
ive never had trouble with /peace while taking cover, then again, i never used it untill i had the sneak ability, so that might have soemthing to do with it. hell. i /peace all the time while sniping off atsts while taking cover.
It is the "immobilized" aspect of /cover that blocks peace. After you get sneak you aren't immobilized.
You also cant do some specials if you /cover from a vertical posture as it places you in a tumbling state... so when I do use cover I /prone first to reduce the delay before I can /conceal shot.
Sotaudi
Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:22 pm
#10
IdiotFool wrote:
I've tried using Cover and I've compared it to just being prone. I get the same number of shots off in either case before the monster's aggro. I'm only Novice Rifleman, but is there a point to using it, ever? Thanks.
To think correctly about how to use cover, you have to think of cover as being behind a log for protection, not like beinghidden from view by being under something. If you are shooting at someone from behind a big log. They are not going to be unaware of you; it will just be harder to hit you. They will still shoot back. Thus, Cover simply increases your ranged defenses.
Proof of this is what you noticed,there is no difference in the aggro time between being under cover and from being prone because what aggro time keys off of is thetarget's awareness of you. If I am standing next to the creature, and it is already expressing interest in me, any shot, including Concealshot, will trigger an aggro. However, if I am prone at 60m or so, the creeature has not taken notice of me, and I shoot a shot other than Concealshot, the creature will start looking for me. As time and number of shots increase, the chances of detection increase. That is primarily why a master gets 6 shots or so before detection while a Novice may get only two. Also, the closer I am, the easier it is for the target to detect me, and the higher my posture, the easier it is to detect me. That is why prone at 60m or more gives me more shots than standing at 40m. But it also why Cover does not seem to make a difference. Cover only increases ranged defenses. But to be in cover, you have to be prone. Thus, it is the prone state, not the cover state, that decreases the aggro chance. Concealshot, by the way, simply prevents the creature from aggroing on you by interfering with the shot triggering an increasing awareness of you. Miss twice or let the creature detect you because they moved to close to you, and you will be aggroed.
But the bottom line is that cover has nothing to do with being aggroed.
Sotaudi
Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:47 pm
#11
Ackehece wrote:
IdiotFool wrote:
I've tried using Cover and I've compared it to just being prone. I get the same number of shots off in either case before the monster's aggro. I'm only Novice Rifleman, but is there a point to using it, ever? Thanks.
It does not affect the performance of concealment and single draw, it is a skill that affects ranged defence. When in cover it is meant to reduce the number of attacks that hit you and or reduce the damage that does hit you. It so far is either broken or it is very hard to qauntify how well it works.
Ackehece is absolutely correct with regard to how /TakeCoveris supposed to work as well as it's lack of noticable effectiveness even doing that. Howevever, since the topic was being discussed made a connection between take cover and being aggroed after a specific number of shots, mentioning "Concealment and single pull" may lead some to connect Rifleman's "Concealment Chance" mod to the number of shots you can get off before being detected.
Be aware that Concealment Chance is unrelated to both the number of shots you get off before being aggroed and Concealshot itself. The latter two behaviors relate to whether or not the target itself aggros on you. Concealment chance, as alluded to, relates to the likelihood of only the target aggroing on you if it does aggro.
That is, social mobs will group aggro when one is attacked. This is why they are called BAF mobs for this"Bring A Friend" behavior. For a dark period of time late last year, there was a bug introduced that would allow a target's friends to attack you even if the target itself did not. This affected everyone because the number of shots you get off before a target aggros is related to being detected by the mob and, thus, everyone gets a number of free shots before the target aggros. But since this bug triggered group aggro even when the target was still unaware of you, it affected us most because it even did this when you used Concealshot and the mob never saw you. For a ficticious but humorous lampoon of this bug, do a search on "Bernie and Frank."
They eventually fixed this, but around the time they did, they also added a Rifleman mod called "Concealment Chance." While it was first assumed that this related to Concealshot or the chance of being detected by the target, the mod actually onlyworks to help us single pull a creature. That is, the higher the concealment chance, the lower the chance that a BAF mob's friend will come if the Mob does aggro on you.
Thus, it is correct to associate "Concealment Chance" and "single pull," but it is not correct to relate "Concealment Chance" to the chance that the target itself will aggro on you.
Message Edited by Sotaudi on 08-20-2004 03:56 PM
Vaelorn
Sat Aug 21, 2004 1:44 am
#12
Ariven wrote:
dimmu-borgir wrote:
Vaelorn wrote:
Well, You cannot Peace while in Cover. If I'm sniping a MOB, I want to stop shooting when I want to stop shooting.
ive never had trouble with /peace while taking cover, then again, i never used it untill i had the sneak ability, so that might have soemthing to do with it. hell. i /peace all the time while sniping off atsts while taking cover.
It is the "immobilized" aspect of /cover that blocks peace. After you get sneak you aren't immobilized.
You also cant do some specials if you /cover from a vertical posture as it places you in a tumbling state... so when I do use cover I /prone first to reduce the delay before I can /conceal shot.
After reading this again, I realized that the "Immobilized" state might be the actual cause, and not specifically the "Cover" state. I have the ability to Sneak now, so I'll have to try using this again to see what I can use it for. 
As far as being unable to /peace while in the Cover state before Sneak, the issue still stands. A less experienced Rifleman will still have to deal with that issue, until they gain the ability to move while in Cover.
Ariven
Sat Aug 21, 2004 9:25 pm
#13
Vaelorn wrote:
Ariven wrote:
dimmu-borgir wrote:
Vaelorn wrote:Well, You cannot Peace while in Cover. If I'm sniping a MOB, I want to stop shooting when I want to stop shooting.
ive never had trouble with /peace while taking cover, then again, i never used it untill i had the sneak ability, so that might have soemthing to do with it. hell. i /peace all the time while sniping off atsts while taking cover.
It is the "immobilized" aspect of /cover that blocks peace. After you get sneak you aren't immobilized.
You also cant do some specials if you /cover from a vertical posture as it places you in a tumbling state... so when I do use cover I /prone first to reduce the delay before I can /conceal shot.After reading this again, I realized that the "Immobilized" state might be the actual cause, and not specifically the "Cover" state. I have the ability to Sneak now, so I'll have to try using this again to see what I can use it for.As far as being unable to /peace while in the Cover state before Sneak, the issue still stands. A less experienced Rifleman will still have to deal with that issue, until they gain the ability to move while in Cover.
That was me two weeks ago.. it took a few times of going "Oh [censored]" trying to get it to work before I read the system message that flashed by about not being able to peace while immobilized..
I dont see the logic behind not being able to /peace though..
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