Rifleman Archive

/nod

which is why Rifleman need to worry about Rifleman not Pistoleers and vice versa.. But i know ill continue to disprove the huge pistol misnomors people are posting here.

the biggest one being my **edit**ty accuract with a Dx2 at 60 meters, followed by how my uber krayt fw i dont even use in PVP cuz it sucks vs anyone who knows how to wear armor, and rifleman could wear maruader armor if they wanted to with little encumbrance. Its these kinda of lack of Game knowledge that is pissing me off on these cross forum fights.. Its not like im saying Rifleman doesnt need fixed.. they need them bad just like Carbine and Pistoleer.. Yet you guys are proposing Pistoleer fixed.. we are broken! so maybe we are less broken Were broken none the less you want to apply Nerfs to a broken class.. stop and think about that lol

Bottom line as you said in another posts Skills need to be fixed before they apply any blanket changes

I completely agree with Aden, not a master either myself, and after seeing that pistoleer petition that got the Dev's to decide to nerf our speed. That is the straw that broke this Riflemans back. To see that they wanted our speed capped was what pissed me off. I have no faith in the developers either, things keep going from bad to worse.

He forgot to add that they gave everyone pets also to the list of bad things that hurtriflemanas we progress foward gamewise, with the melee damage we take from them.

I pretty much agree with everything you said.

Riflemen currently get a huge boost at Master but have trouble levelling up. Pistoleers have an easier time levelling but have nothing to look forward to because all their skills suck as you move up the tree.

I think you're right that we need to work together. Long-term we should try to figure out what our classes do and what the balance is between them, because as you said we can't rely on the Devs at all. Trust me the Pistoleers hate the Devs too. They haven't fixed a single broken thing with our class and have taken away the only useful skills we had.

In the short term, I think we should band together and oppose the speed cap change and suggest instead a new equation that is linear instead of logarithmic, like Noules suggested. I also think we should also come up with some major fixes for each class (2.5 melee, HAM costs reduction, whatever) that we can propose as well while we discuss all these bigger balance issues.

I think that in the long term the cool thing would be to figure out what the roles and balance is for our classes, and come up with a way for them to work together in PvE so there is teamwork. Right now SWG combat is all about zerging and not enough about teamwork and strategy in PvE.

I'll reiterate my suggestion that we need to know which niche each class should fit into. I think riflemen are supposed to be AE damage support. As long as they're noticably the best at that particular (important) category, I feel they have a viable niche. Carbineers IMO are the AE status support class. As long as they get the best AE status effects (and the most effective effects - so to speak) I think they have a viable niche. Pistoleers in my opinion are really melee-defenders. They don't fit this niche really well right now, but if they did, I think they'd have a viable role.

We need to know what role each class is *supposed* to play. As long as each role isn't something which can be easily replaced by another class (riflemen AE damage -can- be replaced by carbineer AE, but riflemen DPS is much higher, so this is not 'easily replaced') I think balance will tend to fix itself.

We're too concerned about 'Pistoleer vs. rifleman' when it should be 'Pistoleer vs. everything else' and 'rifleman vs. everything else'.

Ya but if Rifleman accuracy was fixed your DPS would be WAY WAY higher without a speed change..

If they limit pistol range then Rifle would own before we got to them (if there accuracy was fixed)

THis is what each class needs to be fixed FIRST before they make any changes

I agree with what you said 100% Noules.

Right now there are NO real roles for classes in SWG, and since the Devs have no clue it would be a good idea for us to agree on what they should be and try to mold our classes in that direction.

I also agree that there is way too much talk of "pistoleer versus rifleman" on here and not enough about "rifleman versus everyone else" and "pistoleer versus everyone else." This is bigger than our two classes.

The DX2 has a weird range setting, I agree, because the ideal range is actually LOWER than the point blank range. I think it started that way quite on purpose because that's how Disruptors work in Star Wars, but it's not fair to put THAT penalty on your Elite Pistol. It would be one thing if that were just one of the guns up the tree (in fact it might be most useful) but to have that range limiter on the gun, where the range is ALWAYS decreasing from point blank. . . no, that's not fair.

On the other hand, regardless of what the intention was, it was Jaegan's post that, in our eyes, heavily contributed to the speed reduction anouncement. Maybe there were better ways to handle it. And maybe in the end it will be a good thing if we get more damage from it, as we've been vaguely told we might hear about someone looking into. But what we heard is:

1) Your speed WILL be decreased
2) We MIGHT give you more damage later on to compensate for it

And that just set us into one big Wookie Berserker Rage. We traced it back and found Jaegan at the other end of it. We were pissed. And I think in response, whether we meant to or not, we thought, "Pistoleers are gonna get it!" That being said, again, Pistol accuracy, even without Bounty Hunter, DOES need to be looked at and tested independantly. I didn't say NERF IT NOW! I said it needs to be looked at. On the other hand, the numbers may be right and it's the implimentation that may be hosed. But theoretical maybes frighten us, because they only seem to become realities when they are slaps in the face.

So everything's not exactly rosey here. But if we can post discussions instead of flames, maybe we can come to some civil conclusions.

We're on the same page, Aden. And I understand why Riflemen are concerned.

So how about we work together to get that "speed cap" thing replaced with a better change (like Noules' equation) and then both sides propose things that don't piss off each other (like HAM cost reductions, T21 unnerf, 2.5 melee getting removed, etc).

I think if that happens then everyone will be calmed down and maybe we can work together for a change to figure out what the roles for our classes are and what play balance should be.

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Noules000 wrote:
Carbineers IMO are the AE status support class.

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I have always thought that Carbineers should be dishing the best AoE damage. I mean, really, they are the sub-machine guns of SWG. They only really have one tree that even deals with their rapid-fire skill, and there it's just sort of a "cursory aknowledgement" of it.

The problem is that at Master, especially with a speed drop, Riflemen are probably the MOST likely to get owned by a group of advancing attackers. So we need the AoE just to survive in the first place. Kind of a catch-frickin-22, no?

So how do we define these roles better? Well, we have to solve the GLARING HOLES in each Profession before we can hope to redesign them and tweak them out to act as they are supposed to. But before we can fix those holes, we have to know where we how we want to revamp them.

I have a headache.

Master Pistoleer throwing my comments in the ring

Great post. I like seeing more calm, reasonable, and logical posts instead of rants / flames / cries for nerfs (by either side - I've seen plenty by both sides in this).

Your points are very good. On the accuracy front, I'd like to add some things:

- As you pointed out with some other things, game mechanics work against Riflemen here. Mobs run towards a target, which increases a Pistoleers accuracy as they get closer, and makes a Rifleman's worse.

I think two issues with accuracy need to be addressed, at least initially:

- Just as speed shouldn't stack for BH / Pistol dabblers, neither should accuracy mobs. This makes the Pistol + BH Pistol folks just too dang accurate (as well as too fast).

- A response is needed from the Devs as to whether or not Pistoleer specials having accuracy mods and Rifleman specials not having them is intentional, or an oversight (similar to how Pistoleers want to know if Rifleman and Carbineer specials having state effects (stun, blind, etc...) and the Pistoleer specials not having them is intentional)).

Once those two things are addressed it will be easier to figure out what is and isn't working as intended.

We should just start a post on the discussion board demanding that the devs tell us what each combat profession is suppose to do. Just keep bumpin it like the classic T21 crusade. Then, and only then, can we balance things properly from there. Because right now we don't know who is suppose to be the AoE king. Or just how much of an advantage a Rifleman is suppose to have over a Pistoleer at long range and vice versa.

Thanx for invitation Aden_Nak.


I will reply as best as I can, I'm French so I don't speak english as well as you guys. Try to comprehend I'm not able to speak exactly like I would like.


There is in first place something you all Riflemen should understand : we NEVER asked devs to cap you speed to 3 seconds. Really, this is THEIR idea and will all know it won't change anything at all, it will even make BH much more powerful than what they currently are.

There is still a REAL problem with speed btw.

The simple fact a Master Rifleman can fire special moves once per second (assuming they have sufficient HAM pool) is the only answer man can give : YES, there is a problem.

Atm, Master Riflemen can fire as fast as master pistoleers, which isn't acceptable at all when you know your shots hit for 5 to 8 times ours, plus AP3 which we don't have.

AP is something you should start to consider much more btw : you are AP3, we are AP1. This makes a WONDERFUL difference, in EVERY situation. AP3 weapons are much more powerful than AP1 ones, no question here. For example you are piercing incredible AT ST armors, we can't...this makes really a huge difference, much more than what you state.

AP is bugged ? Yes, our DX2 is surely the most bugged weapon in SWG for what I know. We're aware it is bugged, but this will be fixed one day, soon or later, so we MUST try to balance things assuming it is fixed. We won't balance things each time a patch occurs or game won't be playable before 3 years.


I hope every Rifleman agree he shouldn't be as fast, even barely, as a Pistoleer. You are hitting for MUCH more in Mind Pool (another HUGE advantage, ALL our working moves (he he, 3 of them, one is a Marksman one : HS 1 & 2, Fanshot) are random HAM or dot (once every 20 seconds...no kidding, I am dead 10 times in 20 seconds...BS line is broken as hell). As a Pistoleer, I agree I shouldn't be able to hit barely as often as a Rifleman at 64m. I should miss 6-7 times out of 10 tries and Riflemen should hit 7-8 times. This isn't the case and our accuracy isn't the real problem, something odd in accuracy vs defense. Add to this the accuracy stacking issue (the EXACT same one that bothers pistoleers with speed) and of course, Rifemen not being a Modifier Dabbled Prof, they are the great loser. Btw, pure Pistoleer is MUCH LESS accurate than Pure Rifleman at 64m. This isn't to check, this is a fact. At Rifle 2 in Marksman, I hit much more often with my Rifle than with my FWG5 (our more accurate pistol at this distance).


Accuracy should be looked at vs defense, for sure. Pistoleers are supporting Riflemen here.


Pistoleers are also for the most part AGAINST the speed cap thing. It won't make us better, nor Carbineers and Riflemen (of course, it even NERF them, which we don't want to see happening). There is another much more clever solution. Leave all speed cap at 1 second BUT the cap must be set on Speed Modifiers. This will of course nerf a bit Riflemen BUT you should be able to trade extra dmg for some speed as you are supposed to be able. Just put caps at something like :

- pistols : 80
- carbines : 70
- rifles : 60


yes I know, it is MUCH lower than the abusive (yes, it is) 90 mod you have atm. But you'll still be able to shoot faster than once every 3 seconds, you just won't be able to shoot for 6k5 every second again. This is a part of our top issue fixed and you being way less nerfed than what you would be with the 3 sec thing.

Not to mention it will also forbid casual BH to only grab 2 boxes of BH (allowing them to self call REAL BH, priceless) to get perfect accuracy / speed combo and kill at will everything that is targetable. Yep it will take from you some power, if you think at it more than 2 seconds, it is still much better than what will happen with plain 3 sec delay.

We MUST do the exact same thing with Accuracy.


All of this need then some precise tuning, of course. I've send numbers as an example, thing should be much more precisely tested. But the idea is this one : Rifle are much more accurate and deadly at high distance, Pistols are much more fast adn more accurate at short distance. Carbineer should be the exact compromise.


This will still leave BH above average BUT a movice BH wouldn't be able to kill a Master Rifleman / Pistoleer at will (this MUST be fixed ASAP), Master BH should still be able to kill any Master Pistoleer / Carbineer / Rifleman with some risks, he have to play well and wisely and this will leave unchanged the powerful but fragile Commando.

Meanwhile, it enhances a bit Smugglers and melee profs because they aren't way under other's power, they benefit the change because everyone will be slowly.



This is in a few words what I and a fair part of Pistoleers think. Many BH / Carbineers / Melee Profs and even Riflemen agree with that.

Back to this Philosopher lol .....

i Agree we, The Pistoleers, Rifleman and Carbineers need to get together and FORCE the Devs to tell us what our Roles are supposed to be in PVE and PVP. Ald, Jager and The Carbineer Coor. (sorry dont know his/hername) need to make a joint post simply stating.

what in gods name are our roles ... or something less angry

My three ideas for roles are this

Pistol - Fast almost constant damage Close quarter AOE attacks Dont loose too much accuracy on the run Horribly inaccurate at long range... Special ability Dual wield. kinda like the Rogue from eq (without the backstab)

Carbineers- Kings of the AOE status effect along with Long range Roots and Snares. Main debuffers for the other two Guns. what the enchanter was to EQ

Rifleman - Slow Single target Ranged High damage dealers ... thier specialty is simple, kill the mob while the others keep it off them if the mob gets to them they are screwed (thus the 2.5 melee damage) special ability ... block radar from PVP

i have always looked at the mind bar as the mana bar ... where as we(rifleman) can't spam our special but when we do choose to use them they should do awesome damage.