Rifleman Archive
Thread: A Discussion of Armor Piercing, with 3-part Harmony and Full Orchestration
A concerto for T21, Power Hammer, and DX2, in 4 unnatural acts
Performed by the Ranged and Melee Symphony Orchestra
Conductor: Volsted Gridban
Firstly, my credentials: A long time ago in a university far, far away, I was a Math/Physics double major. I eventually switched to History when I realized that I didn't really want to spend the rest of my life glowing in the dark, but I have enough mathematics background that, if I were to return to school in pursuit of a Mathematics degree, I'd qualify for one in two, maybe three semesters.
Secondly, a story: Once upon a time, there was a land called Norrath. When the land was new, the Gods of the land exclaimed (among other things) "Let the Shamans have Alchemy!" And there was much rejoicing.
Right up until the Shamans went and tried to make stuff with the Alchemy skill. And discovered that it didn't work. "This Alchemy skill you have given us! It is mightily b0rken!" they cried. And then they added a couple of "Yea verilys" and "Forsooths," because the Gods seemed to dig that sort of thing.
And the Gods replied: "We've checked the code! Alchemy is working as intended! Go forth and create wondrous elixirs!"
And the Shamans replied: "Uh. You may wanna check again, 'cause it's still broken."
And the Gods replied: "No it's not."
And the Shamans replied: "Yes it is."
And the Gods replied: "Nuh-UH!"
And the Shamans replied: "Is so."
And the Gods replied: "LA LA LA LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU LA LA LA!"
And then all was silent for about 2 years, aside from muted grumblings from the occasional Shaman n00b.
And then the Gods spoke up out of the clear blue and said, in a rather quiet voice: "Uh, that whole Alchemy business? You guys were right all along. The code we were testing on our end isn't the same code as what's on the live servers. It's broken on the live servers, just like you said it was. We'll...uh...get right on that, mm'kay?"
Thus endeth the story.
In the beginning, there was the Advanced Guide: Armor Fundamentals. The whole of this guide can be usefully summed up in the following way:
If your weapon has higher Armor Piercing (AP) than the Armor Rating (AR) of whatever it is you're shooting, stabbing, or whacking upside the head, you get a cumulative 25% bonus to your damage before any resistances are applied.
If your weapon has a lower AP than the AR of whatever it is you're shooting, stabbing, or whacking upside the head, you get a cumulative 50% penalty to your damage before any resistances are applied.
The fact that it's a cumulative modifier is indicated by this DIRECT QUOTE FROM THE GUIDE:
Note that the 50% reduction or 25% increase occurs for each level. So if that CDEF were to be used against an AT-ST whose Armor Rating is Heavy, there would be a three level difference. So damage would be reduced by 50%, then another 50%, and another 50% for merely 12.5% of the initial damage.
The 12.5% figure can only be valid if the penalty is cumulative. That is:
(0.50) * (0.50) * (0.50) = 0.125
which is 12.5%. Therefore, the bonus is also cumulative. A difference of 2 levels between AP and AR (AP2 vs. AR0, for example) will get a bonus of (1.25) * (1.25) to the damage.
But what, exactly, is the bonus based on?
When you engage in combat, and if you look in the Chat Window labelled "Combat," you will see what is colloquially referred to as "battlespam" or "combat spam." It's a continually scrolling list of the Base Damage you are doing to whatever it is you're fighting. The AP bonuses and penalties modify this Base Damage.
So, if the Armor Guide is correct, the concise mathematical way to express these bonuses and penalties is:
AP greater than AR
Base Damage * (1.25)^N * (1 - Resistance)
AR greater than AP
Base Damage * (0.50)^N * (1 - Resistance)
where N is the positive difference between AP and AR, and where Resistance is the decimal value of any applicable resistances. (If N = 0, then either formula will work.) Once the Base Damage has been processed through one of these two formulas, the final result is shown as the Floaty Damage, which is the damage numbers you see floating above the head of your enemy after you shoot it or whack it with something.
This is, in summary, how the Armor Guide claims that Armor Piercing works in the game of Star Wars Galaxies.
BUT IS THE ARMOR GUIDE CORRECT?
That's the question before us.
Quoth Keldarin:
Combat spam lies, it doesn't correctly reflect armor adjustments to damage.
Well, he's 100% correct about this. Battlespam does not reflect adjustments due to armor or resistances.
But Floaty Damage does.
Floaty Damage is the actual damage removed from the HAM pools of whatever it is you're fighting. If you see "-1800" appear above the head of something or someone that you're fighting, you can rest safe in the knowledge that you just took 1800 points out of their HAM bars. The following screenshots will demonstrate this.
Health of a soon-to-be-deceased mutant baz nitch
Action of a soon-to-be-deceased mutant baz nitch
Mind of a soon-to-be-deceased mutant baz nitch
The starting values are:
Health: 9599
Action: 9186
Mind: 8742
Now we shoot the poor bugger and compare the HAM stats.
The soon-to-be-deceased mutant baz nitch gets pegged for 1876 points of Floaty Damage
8099 Health
8998 Action
8554 Mind
So if we take the baz nitch's HAM stats when he was at full health, and subtract from them his HAM stats after we blew a hole in his pancreas, we should get 1876.
(9599 - 8099) + (9186 - 8998) + (8742 - 8554) = 1876
Thus, Floaty Damage is the damage actually done to whatever or whomever it is you're fighting. And since the Floaty Damage is the damage actually done to whatever or whomever you're fighting, it takes Armor and Resistances into account by definition.
So if we take the damage that you get AFTER all the armor and resistances have been factored in, and you divide that by the damage you had BEFORE all the armor and resistances are factored in, you should get a Resistance and Armor Factor (RAF):
RAF = Floaty Damage/Base Damage
Now here's where the extended Saxophone solo kicks in.
If the Armor Guide is correct, we should also be able to calculate the RAF via the following formulas:
AP greater than AR
RAF = (1.25)^N * (1 - Resistances)
AR greater than AP
RAF = (0.50)^N * (1 - Resistances)
ON THE OTHER HAND...
If the Devs' description of how Armor Piercing works is correct, THESE formulas will work instead:
AP greater than AR
RAF = [1 - (Resistances * (0.50)^N)]
AR greater than AP
RAF = [1 - (Resistances * (1.25)^N)]
(Like how I just slid that Rush reference in there? I'm so slick.)
<eyes orchestra warily>
<cracks knuckles>
<taps conducting baton on podium>
Sonata #1: The Gaping Spider
As you can see from the screenshot, a gaping spider has Light armor (AR1) and 15% resistance to Energy.
If the Armor Guide is correct, shooting one of these things with my T21 should get me an RAF of:
RAF = (1.25)^2 * (1 - 0.15) = 1.328
If the Devs' description is correct, shooting one of these things with my T21 should get me an RAF of:
RAF = [1 - (0.15 * (0.50)^2) = 0.962
So let's shoot one with my T21, shall we?
*BANG*
Note the battlespam. The battlespam says I hit for 682 points of Base Damage.
Note the Floaty Damage of 926.
Remember: RAF = Floaty Damage/Base Damage
<drum roll>
RAF = 926/682 = 1.358
Well, it's not exactly what we predicted from the Armor Guide formula. But it's a lot closer to the Armor Guide formula than it is to the formula as described by the Devs.
Let's test it with another shot.
*BANG*
2170 points of Floaty Damage, 1633 points of Base Damage.
RAF = 2170/1633 = 1.329
Well that's pretty darned close to what we predicted from the Armor Guide formula. And nowhere near what we predicted from the Devs' formula.
What if we shoot it with another weapon? Will the results still be closer to the Armor Guide formula?
The armor guide predicts that my RAF with a Laser Rifle (AP2) will be:
RAF = (1.25)^1 * (1 - 0.15) = 1.062
The Devs' formula predicts that my RAF with a Laser Rifle will be:
RAF = [1 - (0.15 * (0.50)^1) = 0.925
1161 Floaty Damage, 1092 Base Damage
RAF = 1161/1092 = 1.063
538 Floaty Damage, 507 Base Damage
RAF = 1161/1092 = 1.061
How about if we test it with a weapon that has a lower AP than the AR of the spider? Such as, for example, my trusty Spraystick?
The armor guide predicts that my RAF with a Spraystick (AP0) will be:
RAF = (0.50)^1 * (1 - 0.15) = 0.425
The Devs' formula predicts that my RAF with a Laser Rifle will be:
RAF = [1 - (0.15 * (1.25)^1) = 0.812
144 Floaty Damage, 341 Base Damage
RAF = 144/341 = 0.422
165 Floaty Damage, 385 Base Damage
RAF = 165/385 = 0.428
Sonata #2: Oops!
Don't ever let anybody tell you that Conceal Shot is 100% risk free.
Sonata #3: More data
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=pistoleer&message.id=18643
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=rifleman&message.id=20710#M20710
Sonata #4: A Crucial Observation
If the Devs' description were correct, you would never be able to have your Floaty Damage exceed your Base Damage. Under the best of all possible circumstances -- 0% Resistances -- Floaty Damage would precisely equal Base Damage using the description provided by the Devs. The numerous screenshots showing Floaty Damage higher than Base Damage handily demonstrates that the Devs' formula is inaccurate.
And there you have it. Definitive proof that you can predict the RAF using the Armor Guide formula. Granted, it's not perfect. I've done a lot of these tests, and there's certainly some statistical noise that crops up from time to time. But, in general, Armor Piercing works pretty much like the Armor Guide says it does, and works not at all in the way the Devs claim it does.
Thank you, thank you. I'll be here all week.
wow, im tempted to make a new ranger/rifleman on tempest so i can start a volsted cult.
seriously man, keep up the good work.
make that the AWESOME WORK
make that the TOTALLY HARD CORE 1337 WORK
w00t
Volsted...after reading many of your posts, and now this masterpiece...I must say, I love you...Iwish you were the one developing this game and not the crackheads in SOE Dev...Its incredible to me that they can be so ridiculouslyslow to respond and digest the SUPERBfeedback information these boards spew forth all the time from hardworking folks like yourself...
Even today, they acknowledged that the missing item Vendor bug was more common then THEY thought, despite obvious posts telling them it was a HUGE problem...I wonder how long it will take for them to acknowledge that what you've been saying for months is more or less accurate...In the business world your ability to adapt to changes oftentimes determines your longterm success...it seems to me that once the game went LIVE thefolks atSOEdidnt' ADAPT well to the transition after liveand have failed to adequately maintain and develop this game in the direction folks in beta and later on these forums thought would make things better... Instead some EXEC or Marketing Director probablythought that since they released the game too early, they'd make it a priority to add Cities, Mounts and Vehicles before the game was properly balanced, debugged and POLISHED...Instead of making the game fun and ENGAGING with what they had, they've made it
Despite the interesting ART OF COMBAT post TH put up today, it really gives NO TIMEFRAME for when we can expect to see those changes put in place...if there are 4 stages to thiscombat update, I would guess they plan on rolling this out over the next 4 months...that means DEC, JAN, FEB, ----> MAR is probably the soonest we could HOPE to see this all play out...ARE THEY SERIOUS???...The changes TH mentions regarding the combat systemSEEM really, but in fact the post is quite VAGUE and UNCLEAR as to what their VISION for combat is and what the roles for professions are suppose to be...TH refers to some post from BETA(I haven't read) as to where this is all heading, but WHY if they've been sitting on this FEEDBACK since beta are they only now acknowledging that it is DESPERATELY NEEDED...
I keep a stash of resources and components enough to make100 T-21s for myself that I've beenwaiting for months to use when they fixed the T-21 stats, I wait 5-10 minutes everytime I want to travel to a different planet, I wait everytime a mob warps and incaps my prone body...I wait for a time when I could fulfill a dream of participating in a large scale Rebel vs Imperial battle without prohibitive lag...We've waited for weeks and in some cases months for responses to profession issues... We've waited for a LONG time for them to really LISTEN to us...
I've read these boards for quite some time and only recently posted anything, mostly regarding my frustrations with the game, HOPING to find a reason to keep my subscription....but I for one have given up playing the waiting game that is SWG...
To quote Keldarin: "LA LA LA LA" 
...or perhaps "DUH HUH DUH HUH DUH HUH" would be more accurate? 
Thanks f
VG...
If you had a life, what would you do with it? 
Seriously, though, this is fantastic stuff. I'm glad someone has the brains and the time to do this.
Bravo!