Rifleman Archive

Thread: My opinon of why Rifleman is a stronger range class now as compared to others.

Manbush
Thu Dec 04, 2003 6:12 am
#1

Interesting reading.


I'm purely PvE, and just reached master rifleman after dropping master pistoleer due to it's ineffectivenessagainst high end mobs, so for me it was fascinating to hear that pistoleer was once the "trump" profession. As someone who started playing after armor/guns/food/buffs hit their peak, the main seperating factor for me is heavy armor piercing. A quick comparison made the decision easy, and I love pistoleer.


Damage - Rifle

Speed - Close enough to be a tie

Damage types - Again, close enough to be a tie. The striker pistol isn't anything to brag about.

HAM - Who cares?

Defense - Pistol. I miss dodge, and the extra melee and status defense was noticeable.

Armor Piercing - Rifleman by a mile.


Of all those it is armor piercing that allows me to now hunt stuff that used to be impossible. I also got tired of my novice medic skills being more useful in a group hunt than my mastered elite combat profession was.


It's very interesting reading how we got to where we are, this is purely my noob/PvE take of where we've wound up. Our handicaps/weaknesses have been systematically negated while our benefits have remained untouched. I can't speak for carbineers, but the gradual removal of the rifleman's handicaps was also the removal of the pistoleer's strengths. I fully intend to go back to pistoleer after the mythical combat balance, but until that day there is currently no comparison in PvE.


By the way, rifleman is not too strong, it is too strong in comparison. Cries of "too strong" arereplied towith the nerf-stick, what we should be hoping for is for other professions to be brought up to our level of effectiveness. The few working combat professions should not be nerfed, they should be used as a template to fix the ones that are less effective. I long for a day when intelligence and knowledge of your professionis more important than the actual profession itself.


Again, thanks for the history lesson.


Bongo - Valcyn
Gaiden133
Mon Dec 22, 2003 4:05 pm
#2

Good post Manbush. I think i covered PvP, as for PvE;
And as for PvE back then, It's hard to say really on who was really the better one. Rifleman or pistoleer?
Back then as well, Pistoleer was a lot easier to master, as for the reasons being;
1. They didn't have 2.5 melee damage
2. The HAM Costs were better for them(Mind was harsh without muon)
3. Their pistols were a lot faster as compared to the 7-10 second guns.
4. Accuracy was terrible for rifles back then
5. The benefits of range defense don't come till the end, as well as good AoE shots.

Right now however, I'd say that rifleman is probably easier to level as compared to Pistoleer
Most of the reasons have to do with the PvP concept as other professions help benefit us more.
And as Dynastar said, a lot of the negatives to our profession have either been;
1. Removed.
2. Helped to ease with by other professions.

This isn't calling for a nerf, This is just to clarify some thoughts that the devs made US specifically "uber",
They didn't, they fixed the other professions a bit and over time, they got better, and benefited us as well.
In the short run (Launch-Post 2-3 months) Pistoleer was FoTM & Trump, but Mid-way to now, we were the FoTM and more than likely best ranged profession there to have at the SP value.




[Gaiden]
[Rebel Colonel]
[-Rifleman at heart forever-]

Numen
Thu Jun 17, 2004 3:33 pm
#3

Its just that all the downsides to rifleman have pretty much been removed via patches or other ingame mechanics. Buffs negate the huge HAM costs rifles have to other weapons. The T-21 isthe most dmging weapon in the game. The HAM costs are amazing on a stocked version, but that is what most rifleman use because buffs negate everything negative amount the HAM.


I recently leveled rifleman and I was amazed at the accuracy. Even at point blank range I was barely missing.


Rifleman is FOTM right now because nearly all other ranged professions are broken or don't offer the same amount of flexibility.


Rifleman don't have a single weakness. The biggest one to me being dmg types which is one thing Rifleman excel at.


The other big thing is they are one of the new professions that target the mind. That instantly gives you an advantage in any PvP.



Amandil Morier - Tempest - Master Chef
Dynastar
Thu Jun 17, 2004 3:37 pm
#4

We've reached the endgame of combat currently. Amror, buffs, weapons and food are all about as good as they can get right now. The only "vulnerabilities" now are mind pool attacks(both direct and DoT) and stun based weaponry. Rifleman has both, hence the massive shift towards it. I'd love to see an Astromech chart of the increase in Riflemen, Combat Medics and Fencers in the last 6 months.



Ramsey Logan
By Federal Law, Riflemen do it with 16 inches or more!
Master Pikeman
Issik
Thu Jun 17, 2004 8:33 pm
#5






Numen wrote:

Its just that all the downsides to rifleman have pretty much been removed via patches or other ingame mechanics. Buffs negate the huge HAM costs rifles have to other weapons. The T-21 isthe most dmging weapon in the game. The HAM costs are amazing on a stocked version, but that is what most rifleman use because buffs negate everything negative amount the HAM.



Rifleman is FOTM right now because nearly all other ranged professions are broken or don't offer the same amount of flexibility.


Rifleman don't have a single weakness. The biggest one to me being dmg types which is one thing Rifleman excel at.


The other big thing is they are one of the new professions that target the mind. That instantly gives you an advantage in any PvP.





Most important part. Pistol have 6 broken/useless specials, Carbines have 2 now (?). The only thing wrong with carbines now is no stun damage. Only energy/acid are usefull to them.


Rifles only have 1 broken, surprise shot, and1/2 redundant, Startle 1/2. Other than that, everything works. And that is why we're sooo popular.





Khyras
CANCELLED. Last day Dec 5th.
Retired Bounty Hunting Hawtness

"Don't think, just shut-up and listen" -Wookash

Contact info
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Gaiden133
Fri Jun 18, 2004 12:35 am
#6

It's simple, Time & Upgrades to other classes.
I ask to all of you Rifleman Vets who go way back in the day to launch and the few months after that.
If you reminiscince with me, Remember how leveling used to take forever?
For those who aren't aware, we had to level with no armor(bone), muon which boosted only mind, and pretty slow rifles.
The main reason why we're powerful now is due to other classes which over time have been benefited to help us as well.
Look at it this way.
Doctors - Now have buffs which can boost up to 2500 stats, Last time? About 80% of the population had no idea what buffs were.
Chefs - Chefs, used to be in a sorry state, and they had no access to the higher better foods and more potent resources till later, no brandy, no vercupti(sp?) or any focus/willpower foods that were significant.
Armorsmiths - The ability to make high end composite armor peices, back when we were still in Chitin, Marabi, etc.
Weaponsmiths - The ability to make fast/strong guns which replaced our 7-10 second guns.

Basically, if you guys remember, Pistoleer used to be the Trump ranged profession, why was that? Because we didn't have armor, which benefited them a lot, as well as the fact that we have high requisites as for consuming the mind goes, no buffs, we just had muon.
After time passed by, of course, more things were produced and high end stuff started hitting the market, and now rifleman enjoy the ability to shoot without getting hit hard by encumberance, and now the pistoleers fall a little slightly as far as damage goes.

The 2.5x melee damage was taken away, so now we do not actually die hard fast from leveling up, neither from TKM/Fencers/Swordsmans, so that also helped us a bit.

To all of those who are complaining that rifleman is too strong, You just weren't there from the beginning where we had it a lot tougher than we did, a lot of us had to level through rifleman using just the default attack. Over time, a lot of professions began getting good and hitting masters, and well, a lot more things that benefited rifleman hit the market. Yeah we're FoTM or were the FoTM, (Right now it's Jedi or something), but we had our tough times, and we just got a little help. If there was no Chefs or docs around, trust me, we wouldn't be able to do the things we do.




[Gaiden]
[Rebel Colonel]
[-Rifleman at heart forever-]

Manbush
Fri Jun 18, 2004 5:12 am
#7

Interesting reading.


I'm purely PvE, and just reached master rifleman after dropping master pistoleer due to it's ineffectivenessagainst high end mobs, so for me it was fascinating to hear that pistoleer was once the "trump" profession. As someone who started playing after armor/guns/food/buffs hit their peak, the main seperating factor for me is heavy armor piercing. A quick comparison made the decision easy, and I love pistoleer.


Damage - Rifle

Speed - Close enough to be a tie

Damage types - Again, close enough to be a tie. The striker pistol isn't anything to brag about.

HAM - Who cares?

Defense - Pistol. I miss dodge, and the extra melee and status defense was noticeable.

Armor Piercing - Rifleman by a mile.


Of all those it is armor piercing that allows me to now hunt stuff that used to be impossible. I also got tired of my novice medic skills being more useful in a group hunt than my mastered elite combat profession was.


It's very interesting reading how we got to where we are, this is purely my noob/PvE take of where we've wound up. Our handicaps/weaknesses have been systematically negated while our benefits have remained untouched. I can't speak for carbineers, but the gradual removal of the rifleman's handicaps was also the removal of the pistoleer's strengths. I fully intend to go back to pistoleer after the mythical combat balance, but until that day there is currently no comparison in PvE.


By the way, rifleman is not too strong, it is too strong in comparison. Cries of "too strong" arereplied towith the nerf-stick, what we should be hoping for is for other professions to be brought up to our level of effectiveness. The few working combat professions should not be nerfed, they should be used as a template to fix the ones that are less effective. I long for a day when intelligence and knowledge of your professionis more important than the actual profession itself.


Again, thanks for the history lesson.


Bongo - Valcyn
XaverriJade7
Fri Jun 18, 2004 5:37 am
#8



Khyras,


I felt like it should be pointed out that in addition to our broken Surpriseshot and the redundant Startle 1&2, we have the useless Strafeshot 1(due to cover being useless in PvP) and along those same lines, we could say only half of Strafeshot 2 works. It's a nice ability as it is, but with its delay effect it could be even better.


Bongo,


Great post. Your last point is something I long for very much





Kezia Sunshade
RIS Certified - Master Armorsmith - 12 Exp. Pts
Vendor locations:
Outland, Naboo (7013, 3646) - Kashyyykian Hunting Armor & Imperial Prototype PSGs
Elexis' Hard Wars Cafe in Paradox, Lok (1330, -305) - Kashyyykian Hunting Armor
eq_mind_wipe
Fri Jun 18, 2004 7:18 am
#9

Good past Manbush. The question is...are the Devs up to the task of doing combat right. It makes me sad to say, but based on past experience, I doubt it.
Gaiden133
Fri Jun 18, 2004 9:44 am
#10

Good post Manbush. I think i covered PvP, as for PvE;
And as for PvE back then, It's hard to say really on who was really the better one. Rifleman or pistoleer?
Back then as well, Pistoleer was a lot easier to master, as for the reasons being;
1. They didn't have 2.5 melee damage
2. The HAM Costs were better for them(Mind was harsh without muon)
3. Their pistols were a lot faster as compared to the 7-10 second guns.
4. Accuracy was terrible for rifles back then
5. The benefits of range defense don't come till the end, as well as good AoE shots.

Right now however, I'd say that rifleman is probably easier to level as compared to Pistoleer
Most of the reasons have to do with the PvP concept as other professions help benefit us more.
And as Dynastar said, a lot of the negatives to our profession have either been;
1. Removed.
2. Helped to ease with by other professions.

This isn't calling for a nerf, This is just to clarify some thoughts that the devs made US specifically "uber",
They didn't, they fixed the other professions a bit and over time, they got better, and benefited us as well.
In the short run (Launch-Post 2-3 months) Pistoleer was FoTM & Trump, but Mid-way to now, we were the FoTM and more than likely best ranged profession there to have at the SP value.




[Gaiden]
[Rebel Colonel]
[-Rifleman at heart forever-]

Brainplay
Sun Jun 20, 2004 5:48 am
#11

In PvP- If you aren't doing MIND damage or have a stun weapon then you aren't a good PvP profession. As riflemen we get both. Most PvP encounters end with who's mind bar empties first and since riflemen, CMs, and swordsmen are the kings of MIND damage we own the PvP world (although TK's get a headhit too).


In PvE- Thanks to heavy composite armor and doctor buffs our we get to take full advantage of our damage modifiers.


Pistols have sucky dps, carbines are great for laying states on things but states dont kill npc's or pvp'ers (plus the HAM costs are horrendous).








Keorythe

h Combat Medic h


/Forcing Counterstrike PvPers to PvE since 2003 \






A Combat Medic Alpha tester who never got the chance to alpha test

Metherian
Sun Jun 20, 2004 7:32 am
#12






Gaiden133 wrote:

To all of those who are complaining that rifleman is too strong, You just weren't there from the beginning where we had it a lot tougher than we did, a lot of us had to level through rifleman using just the default attack. Over time, a lot of professions began getting good and hitting masters, and well, a lot more things that benefited rifleman hit the market. Yeah we're FoTM or were the FoTM, (Right now it's Jedi or something), but we had our tough times, and we just got a little help. If there was no Chefs or docs around, trust me, we wouldn't be able to do the things we do.




Actually, I have been here from the beginning. And you're absolutlye right. Rifleman has reaped most of the benefits with recent publishes, while many of the other professions have faded into uselessness. However, this still doesn't mean that Rifleman aren't overpowered--itjust mean thatsome of us can understand why it's come to be this way.


It's interesting to note the glory days of pistoleers and smugglers. Afterthe game's release, almost everyone had "a little bit" ofthe Pistoleer tree, as it complimented other ranged professions rather well (especially smuggler). At the time, however, pistoleers and smugglers were comparitively strong, but hardly the mind bar damage-dealers that rifleman are today. With the recent buffs, armor, chef foods, Rifleman power has far outdistanced anything a pistoleer or smuggler could do, even 'back in the day'. In fact, the only profession thateven came close to the power ofthe Riflemanprofession was the 'old school' Bounty Hunter profession, and that didn't last long.


LikeRifleman, Bounty Hunters benefited greatly from the lack of buffs, armor, high pistol speed and lack of mind healing. With their infamous mind-hitting Eye Shot ability, Bounty Hunters enjoyed a few months of total domination on the PvP battlefield. Some would argue that, with Bounty Hunter skill requisites being so high, it was 'okay' for BH's to be that powerful.Nevertheless, a lot of people complained that PvP was starting to become very one-sided. There was even talk of moving Eye Shot to the BH Master skill box. But before that could happen, Chef's got a revamp that made things like brandy and canape readily available, effectively relegating the BH profession to the same backwater pond populated by pistoleers and smugglers. Naturally, this left nothing but Riflemanas the dominant ranged combat profession.


The problem with Rifleman at the moment is this: back when pistoleers and smugglers were 'king', people could still compete with them. Even carbineers (if buffed) could defend themselves quite effectively with the use of some tactics. During the Bounty Hunter craze, many people adopted new tactics with which to deal with them. They either fought 'fire with fire', or enlisted the help of a combat medic or two to make sure that *nothing* was even-handed. In short, people learned how to deal with BH's, even though they clearly showed that mind-bar targetting was a little too powerful. After the chef revamp, though, the scales of equality were thrown almost completely to the rifleman's favor. With brandy, canape, etc., Rifleman were now able to *spam* mind shots in a way they never could before. At the same time, with buffs and armor being completely out of hand, all of the former, 'dominating' ranged combat professions quickly became useless.


Currently, rifleman are uber-powered--but this isn't the main problem. (Players develope ways of dealing with over-powered templates.) The problem is that all of the other ranged combat professions were so watered-down and made effete by recent changes that there is simply no comparison between the ranged professions any more. Rifleman stand alone at the moment, and that is the most over-powered profession 'advantage' ever seen in this game. (Look at the combat medic profession for another example of this.) With nothing on the horizon except the constantly-postponed Combat Rebalance to 'review things', it's no wonder that a lot of people are bored with PvP at the moment. Unless you play a temploiter 'build', there's just no point in participating.




Metherian
Sun Jun 20, 2004 7:43 am
#13






Manbush wrote:


By the way, rifleman is not too strong, it is too strong in comparison. Cries of "too strong" arereplied towith the nerf-stick, what we should be hoping for is for other professions to be brought up to our level of effectiveness. The few working combat professions should not be nerfed, they should be used as a template to fix the ones that are less effective. I long for a day when intelligence and knowledge of your professionis more important than the actual profession itself.







Rifleman is not too strong? Perhaps. But you have to ask yourself, "Do you think the dev's initally designed certain mobs to be solo-able in this game?"


I see rifleman all the time soloing Krayt dragons because they can. Sure, it may take some time to accomplish, but it is possible. And while it's a foregone conclusions that pistoleers, smugglers, carbineers, etc. have no chance of effectively soloing Krayt dragons, one has to wonder whether it was in the dev's initial design to have a profession (or two) that could. Should any of the 'uber' combat profession be able to solo all of the so-called high-end content in this game? Should certain combat professions be able to solo the Genosian bunker?


There is no group dynamic in SWG at the moment. Was this the dev's long-term vision for their massively multiplayer game?

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