Ranger Archive
Thread: We need to find a single issue and stick behind it to achieve our goal.
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Calculus_Entropy
Thu Apr 07, 2005 8:13 am
#1
I think the mention of Scout was a boo boo. I don't think there have been any changes to them. I can certainly see where *some* of the angst has been coming from.
Message Edited by Calculus_Entropy on 04-07-2005 09:15 AM
BioEngine
Thu Apr 07, 2005 8:20 am
#2
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
I think the mention of Scout was a boo boo. I don't think there have been any changes to them. I can certainly see where *some* of the angst has been coming from.
Message Edited by Calculus_Entropy on 04-07-2005 09:15 AM
This is my "beef" with us not being considered a combat class: Rescue
This ability forces creatures and npc's (possibly) to attack US instead of our group members. That is a willing engagement into combat that we have the ability to do. And, if we are already in combat, then this ability will increase our burden in combat and will cause us to take more damage. This is why we need the health bonus.
I'm still looking for it, Calc, but it may have been deleted. I know I saw it.
BioEngine
Thu Apr 07, 2005 8:31 am
#3
Mwahahaha! I found it! I did misquote, however, because it wasn't Blair. It was none other than Thunderheart.
It will be in the next post. I have to clean it up hehe.
Rabideko, Professional Freakin' Data Miner
BioEngine
Thu Apr 07, 2005 8:32 am
#4
Thunderheart wrote:
Rothin wrote:
The profession roles are a great step in the game, it gives everyone an opportunity to fit in some role in the group and you can mix and match different professions to make sure you can pick up lacking areas as well. Overall it's very good.
On the subject of Jedi.. you have to remember there are 5 different Jedi professions. Basically, each of them fits into a type of role. IE, LS = Damage dealer, Defender = tanking, etc.. so depending on your template your roll will vary.
As for Ranger, I'm very curious as well. I'm not sure where they fit in yet, but I'm sure we'll find out when it's on TC.
I'm excited myself to see howvarious roles play togetherandhow they all mix and match - - especially how the special moves will combine with each other at the elite levels.
For the details about each profession, that information will be easy accessible by pulling up the skills window (CTRL-S). You can't see the Jedi skill details, but I will look intowhat is possible with gettingthat information available in some way.
Currently, the Jedi testing will be done by the correspondent and his 5 chosen testers.
Rangers are another important issue. They aren't considered a core combat profession, so their role wasn't included in the combat professions role overview, but we hope to address that profession after the Combat Upgrade goes live. We'll release more information when the details start to firm up some time down the road.
Message Edited by BioEngine on 04-07-2005 10:38 AM
darmokVtS
Thu Apr 07, 2005 8:36 am
#5
Well that just says we aren't a *core* combat profession. And guess what, he's right about this. We are combat support, not combat core.
And oh, my main issue is as of yet undecided, I'll tell you when we can learn elite profession on TC-5 and finally get facts about the health bonus (as I'll see it as a huge issue if a single elite combat prof does not give the full health mod and a non-issue when it does :-)).
And oh, my main issue is as of yet undecided, I'll tell you when we can learn elite profession on TC-5 and finally get facts about the health bonus (as I'll see it as a huge issue if a single elite combat prof does not give the full health mod and a non-issue when it does :-)).
Message Edited by darmokVtS on 04-07-2005 05:38 PM
adam2975
Thu Apr 07, 2005 8:37 am
#6
I want the health bonus too given the choice, i've held my tongue so far on the CU as i want to test elite profs first then i can go balistic 
P.S. oops i do have a Ranger/Rifleman but i posted with the wrong account
P.S. oops i do have a Ranger/Rifleman but i posted with the wrong account
Message Edited by adam2975 on 04-07-2005 04:38 PM
Jolandir
Thu Apr 07, 2005 8:51 am
#7
The problem I believe is that we are now too far behind to focus on a single objective unless that objective takes a broad spectrum of the needs we have, not just the desires we would like, to be a viable profession helpful to the GCW while staying true to the ideas and image of Rangers. Here's what I mean. Health alone will not make us viable and significant (I don't mean overpowered but balanced and important in the SWG universe and in the GCW that is suppose to be raging, especially after the CU is if not completely in at least all the basics are in place.
From what I think the Dev's are trying to achieve (strictly my opinion) is that no one profession or even a couple professions will be the "super" profession, but radically interralationally important to one another (i.e. group combat - and I don't mean "solo groups" because this defeats their purpose and really the balance and enjoyment of SWG). We will need each other because none of us will be able to stand alone. That isn't to say you must always be in a group either, that is clear from the CU beta so far. So assuming nothing changes in these concepts, we need to be able within the purview of Ranger be viable as a profession, and useful to all the other classes in the GCW as well as the economy. So having said this, this is what I think we need to do, which goes along with your idea but broadens it in the sense that 1 major concept for viability and usefulness is what we need to all gather around at this time.
For instance; Health is important for viability and usefulness because if we are at a serious disadvantage in this area we will either have to be armored, buffed and grouped with so-called combat professions to survive serious harvesting (yes we will always have the ability to harvest successfully, milk, find eggs and fight generally non-tough creatures, but this isn't our goal, because we can already do that).
Weapon ceritification is nice, especially ones specialized for our professioin (identity and useability in major hunts), and because then we don't have to use so many of our very valuable SP to get sufficient weapons capability to just do serious hunting, let alone be helpful in fighting for our particular faction in the GCW.
Change in Armor Certification - well I am not going to speak to this as I believe Calc correctly corrected me in stating that none of us really know enough yet about this possible problem to cry foul or cry need for change. The concern is, if I might state that at this point is, that if we are "certified" for a particular armor set as "rangers" then (espeically if we don't have the above mentioned weapons certs that fit this) if we decide to say become Rifleman will equiping this weapon nullify our armor usage, or will the armor cert make it so we can't use or will have reduced capabilities with our chosen weapon as Rangers. In other words are we going to be channeled into only certain fighting styles or have to take off our armor or considerably reduce its effectiveness for us or our weapons. If this proves to be the case then this could be a real sore spot for many Rangers.
So this is why we need and want the Devs to consider us a combat profession and to reckon us in on the CU. We use a lot of SP to become Rangers even those who only go 1,0,4,0 or something like that. It will make most people not even begin to consider Ranger or at least M Ranger because they have put so much in to M Scout and then into Ranger areas that in order to get enough health, have powerful enough weapons, and to be able to use (like any other fighting class and even if the Devs never consider us a "combat profession" we are a fighting profession) armor and say hunt the really tough and nasty critters that we find out there truly viably we have to put all we have left into as much so called "combat professions" so we can fight.
So in essence WE need them to consider us in a total package not piecemeally. We need sufficient life, sufficient fighting cababilities with solid weapons at our disposal, and for the higher end things even armor (OK puriest I know so please don't flame me, there are others who are just as much a Ranger as those who refuse to wear armor and never get buffed). We need to be able to cause significant state affects on major opponents, and to significantly hamper or even destroy them with our traps. We want camps to really mean something as well in the life of SWG, the GCW and especially in the lives of Rangers and those that are grouped with them.
So we need a unified front with a unified overall vision of Ranger! This vision I believe can be inclusive of both those who want us to be only a true top of the line hunting profession and those who want us also to be considered a unique "combat profession". I do not believe it needs to be exclusive of one or the other. Yes we can forever shout we want this particular thing and that particular thing, but until we have a truly viable profession for the SWG, the GCW and for the harvesting and gathering of major needed raw resources then we are just a novelty group that continues only because some of us (myself included) are to bull headed to give it up.
Well anyway, just my 2 cents worth.
Jolandir
BioEngine
Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:18 am
#8
Jolandir wrote:
The problem I believe is that we are now too far behind to focus on a single objective unless that objective takes a broad spectrum of the needs we have, not just the desires we would like, to be a viable profession helpful to the GCW while staying true to the ideas and image of Rangers. Here's what I mean. Health alone will not make us viable and significant (I don't mean overpowered but balanced and important in the SWG universe and in the GCW that is suppose to be raging, especially after the CU is if not completely in at least all the basics are in place.
From what I think the Dev's are trying to achieve (strictly my opinion) is that no one profession or even a couple professions will be the "super" profession, but radically interralationally important to one another (i.e. group combat - and I don't mean "solo groups" because this defeats their purpose and really the balance and enjoyment of SWG). We will need each other because none of us will be able to stand alone. That isn't to say you must always be in a group either, that is clear from the CU beta so far. So assuming nothing changes in these concepts, we need to be able within the purview of Ranger be viable as a profession, and useful to all the other classes in the GCW as well as the economy. So having said this, this is what I think we need to do, which goes along with your idea but broadens it in the sense that 1 major concept for viability and usefulness is what we need to all gather around at this time.
For instance; Health is important for viability and usefulness because if we are at a serious disadvantage in this area we will either have to be armored, buffed and grouped with so-called combat professions to survive serious harvesting (yes we will always have the ability to harvest successfully, milk, find eggs and fight generally non-tough creatures, but this isn't our goal, because we can already do that).
Weapon ceritification is nice, especially ones specialized for our professioin (identity and useability in major hunts), and because then we don't have to use so many of our very valuable SP to get sufficient weapons capability to just do serious hunting, let alone be helpful in fighting for our particular faction in the GCW.
Change in Armor Certification - well I am not going to speak to this as I believe Calc correctly corrected me in stating that none of us really know enough yet about this possible problem to cry foul or cry need for change. The concern is, if I might state that at this point is, that if we are "certified" for a particular armor set as "rangers" then (espeically if we don't have the above mentioned weapons certs that fit this) if we decide to say become Rifleman will equiping this weapon nullify our armor usage, or will the armor cert make it so we can't use or will have reduced capabilities with our chosen weapon as Rangers. In other words are we going to be channeled into only certain fighting styles or have to take off our armor or considerably reduce its effectiveness for us or our weapons. If this proves to be the case then this could be a real sore spot for many Rangers.
So this is why we need and want the Devs to consider us a combat profession and to reckon us in on the CU. We use a lot of SP to become Rangers even those who only go 1,0,4,0 or something like that. It will make most people not even begin to consider Ranger or at least M Ranger because they have put so much in to M Scout and then into Ranger areas that in order to get enough health, have powerful enough weapons, and to be able to use (like any other fighting class and even if the Devs never consider us a "combat profession" we are a fighting profession) armor and say hunt the really tough and nasty critters that we find out there truly viably we have to put all we have left into as much so called "combat professions" so we can fight.
So in essence WE need them to consider us in a total package not piecemeally. We need sufficient life, sufficient fighting cababilities with solid weapons at our disposal, and for the higher end things even armor (OK puriest I know so please don't flame me, there are others who are just as much a Ranger as those who refuse to wear armor and never get buffed). We need to be able to cause significant state affects on major opponents, and to significantly hamper or even destroy them with our traps. We want camps to really mean something as well in the life of SWG, the GCW and especially in the lives of Rangers and those that are grouped with them.
So we need a unified front with a unified overall vision of Ranger! This vision I believe can be inclusive of both those who want us to be only a true top of the line hunting profession and those who want us also to be considered a unique "combat profession". I do not believe it needs to be exclusive of one or the other. Yes we can forever shout we want this particular thing and that particular thing, but until we have a truly viable profession for the SWG, the GCW and for the harvesting and gathering of major needed raw resources then we are just a novelty group that continues only because some of us (myself included) are to bull headed to give it up.
Well anyway, just my 2 cents worth.
Jolandir
Very well thought out, Jolandir. We haven't even considered the GCW in what we needed. Looking at that, I think that Battle Armor is what would benefit us more, if we were to enter into the GCW we would need Energy Protection and for creatures we would need kinetic protection. Unfortunately, we only have a few abilities that don't focus on creatures alone: Camouflage, Rescue, Camps, and Tracking.We have the ability to track npc's and players, so that does not restrict us to fighting against creatures alone.
The differences between our profession and the "combat professions" are as follows:
1) Weapon Certification
2) Special attacks with said weapons
3) To hit and damage bonuses against all targets, not just creatures
4) Damage mitigation
If our bonuses to hit and damage creatures are not higher at Master Ranger than those of other professions at their respective Master level, then we are not as much of acreature-fighting class as we all thought, but a restricted combat support group against creatures primarily and npc's secondarily.
Rabideko
WittyNewt
Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:08 am
#9
TH wrote:
"Rangers are another important issue. They aren't considered a core combat profession, so their role wasn't included in the combat professions role overview, but we hope to address that profession after the Combat Upgrade goes live. We'll release more information when the details start to firm up some time down the road."
DarmokVtS wrote:
"Well that just says we aren't a *core* combat profession. And guess what, he's right about this. We are combat support, not combat core."
Yes TH is right, we should be thought of as combat support, not core combat, in the same way that medic, doctor, squad leader are combat support, Hey wait a minute those three made it to the CU and we did not 
Basically, the devs are on a tight deadline to roll out the CU and ranger just got left off. To be honest, I think they just don't know what to do with us with regards to CU/GCW - we are considered superscouts - superharvesters only as far as I can see.
Ideas we come up with like stealth etc are just given to other core combat profs. They missed an opportunity I feel to really give us some real GCW value with their new rifleman/jedi stealth skills. They should have given them at master ranger instead. Then we would have had a real role, stealth combat. I would have settled for a 2k health if they had done this as I could have been using the skill to scout ahead for my overt group and report back and also act as combat support using the element of surprise to support my core combat profs, aka - inflitrator in PS or DAOC.
Given the state of the CU on TC5 at present I can't see a ranger revamp happening for many months, the devs are going to be doing CU balancing for several months after it hits live.
I am not whining here, I love the ranger prof, have been a ranger for nearly a year and still remember when I was in demand for group hunts on the adventure planets for my uber camps. Now I get requests to group with folks to give harvesting bonuses. I use the skills I have like rescue, traps, harvesting, tracking as much as I can.I hunt solo and also grouped with my friends.
However, if things pan out how I think they will when the CU hits live I will be dropping ranger and going tka/carbs scout 3040 to ensure I get the3k health. My ranger alt helps to support my armorsmith main and so if a dual elite combat + basic scout template harvests more than ranger single elite and also allows me to be on a more or less equal footing when adventuring with friends then it is goodbye to ranger until the revamp, I will be sad to let it go, but needs must.
Moeru
KaiRaene
Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:48 am
#10
Last night I ran into SWGGoliath on TC5. I was using the name Kai in game so that must be a name one of his coworkers go by. He mistook me for them. Heres how our conversation went:
I just ran by and seen him and went on my way.. I get a tell from him.
SWGGoliath: Hey,
Kai: Hi
SWGGolaith: Hows the office? Is Tom driving you crazy?
Kai: lol... you must have me confused with someone else... Just a regular ole player here..
SWGGoliath: lol...sorry
Kai: Did I steal a name?
SWGGoliath: Nah
Kai: Well, I will let you do your thing but I have to say please give Ranger some love. We need it I will leave it at that.
SWGGoliath: Seems that alot of professions need some love
Kai: Yeah, but with the ranger skillpoint sink and lack of healthbonus it has us concerned.
SWGGoliath(attacking lair): I'm not doing any damage. lol
Kai(wanders off)
Should have pushed him for more and been teleported to 0,0 but I didnt want to bug. I just dont get much from any Devs. I think they have a strict outline of what they have to get done before the new movie comes out and they arent even thinking about adding anything to it. Must be some disgruntles around there ....
I just ran by and seen him and went on my way.. I get a tell from him.
SWGGoliath: Hey,
Kai: Hi
SWGGolaith: Hows the office? Is Tom driving you crazy?
Kai: lol... you must have me confused with someone else... Just a regular ole player here..
SWGGoliath: lol...sorry
Kai: Did I steal a name?
SWGGoliath: Nah
Kai: Well, I will let you do your thing but I have to say please give Ranger some love. We need it
I will leave it at that. SWGGoliath: Seems that alot of professions need some love
Kai: Yeah, but with the ranger skillpoint sink and lack of healthbonus it has us concerned.
SWGGoliath(attacking lair): I'm not doing any damage. lol
Kai(wanders off)
Should have pushed him for more and been teleported to 0,0 but I didnt want to bug. I just dont get much from any Devs. I think they have a strict outline of what they have to get done before the new movie comes out and they arent even thinking about adding anything to it. Must be some disgruntles around there ....
Almagill
Thu Apr 07, 2005 8:01 pm
#11
KaiRaene wrote:
Last night I ran into SWGGoliath on TC5. I was using the name Kai in game so that must be a name one of his coworkers go by. He mistook me for them. Heres how our conversation went:
I just ran by and seen him and went on my way.. I get a tell from him.
SWGGoliath: Hey,
Kai: Hi
SWGGolaith: Hows the office? Is Tom driving you crazy?
Kai: lol... you must have me confused with someone else... Just a regular ole player here..
SWGGoliath: lol...sorry
Kai: Did I steal a name?
SWGGoliath: Nah
Kai: Well, I will let you do your thing but I have to say please give Ranger some love. We need it
SWGGoliath: Seems that alot of professions need some love
Kai: Yeah, but with the ranger skillpoint sink and lack of healthbonus it has us concerned.
SWGGoliath(attacking lair): I'm not doing any damage. lol
Kai(wanders off)
/slap Kai with a week old bluefish
You SHOULD have offered to group with him and said "here, I'll show you to do it properly..." then impressed the heck out him by using your Ranger common sense to boost the feeble attack power of a mere scout/novice combi...
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