Ranger Archive

Hello fellow rangers.

I came across a post on the dancer forums earlier regarding BF healing in camps, requested by a dancer, which sparked quite a heated debate. As my girlfriend is a master dancerwho supports the idea and as I had been reading about the topic on this very forum today, I felt the need to respondin orderto help quellfears that this ability would ruin the cantina's and entertainers in general.

I'm pasting a copy of the post here so that you can look over it and correct me if I'm out of line anywhere. Warning, it's a long post!

From the Dancer Forums:

I understand this is a delicate subject and as a ranger myself who's girlfriend is a master dancer I'd like to make a comment about exactly what the rangers have asked for. (Rangers, hope I'm not stepping on any toes!).

The first thing I'd like to say is that I empathise strongly with SInda and the plight of the cantina's in general. I know my girlfriend is becoming sick of the "AFK macro-zombie's" and this does detract from the social experience of the cantina's and cities in general. In my personal opinion, any move to allow BF healing in camps would have to be accompianied by fixes to allow cantina's to once again become a social hub. (I'm sure the removal of afk macroer's would have to be one of those fixes.)

I'll come back to this point in a moment.

From what I have read on the ranger forum, no one has asked for BF-camp healing to be an innate camp ability. Infact, the opposite is true - I believe most rangers would be happy for it to behard to achieve a camp of that status. A couple of things come into play. One is what has been asked for,the otheris my own opinion on how to make it even harder.

Firstly, rangers are asking for modular camps. This would be open only to high level rangers (master only, in my opinion) and requires components crafted by other professions in order to function. In the case of BF, whether that component would be a sound system or instrument crafted by a master musician (maybe again requiring other profession-dependant components?) or a lighting set-up crafted by master dancers (or a stage?) -that's forus and the developers to work out. The real point is that it would be difficult to achieve, would promote profession interdependancy (another key premise the game is based on), and most importantly - would be very rare. It's not like there are that many master rangers anyway. (I know how hard it is to find training on Lowca!)

The second requirement would be that in order for BF healing to function within a camp, a master dancer or (and?) master musician would need to be present, maybe would even require a certain size group to be effective and would almost certainly be slower than if it were done in a cantina. This is my personal opinion but, with acceptance from the entertainers, I'm sure most rangers wouldn't object to the idea. As I said, most of us are happy for this to be hard to achieve, and a relatively rare occurance. It's gives a sense of pride if one can build a camp of this calibre.

The idea of BF healing being available in camps is not intended to hurt the entertainer professions in any way, nor is it designed to discourage the social aspect of cities or cantina's. If any of youwish to hop over to the ranger forums and read any of the posts on the subject, you'll find that we're being very careful to ensure that this enhances all of our respective classes, not take anything away.

In order to ensure that this happens properly I'll go back to my earlier statement about the afk'ers. One thing we wouldhave to avoid is giving people more reason to afk-macro their way to master. I strongly agree (and remember, my girlfriend isa master dancer and is one of the few who hasnever afk-danced) that this ability needs to be removed from the game. It's not just enternainers who are affected by this, but crafters and hell, I even saw a post asking how to afk macro-camp... But that's another topic.

Yes, it's about convenience -but only for large, well equipped parties who want an extended expedition toone of the advanced planets. You certainly wouldn't be seeing one of these thrown up outside the major cities! It's also about profession interdependance - the modules should be hard to make and possibly require the input of the dancers and musicians if that's something you'd want. It's about adding something to master status and about giving dancers, musicians and rangers something else to offer the player base as a whole.

Most of all, it's about giving you the choice. My girlfriend loves the dancer profession and enjoys it even more now that she's master. She's starting to do the player-clubs too, and we both agree something needs to be done about cantina's. Don't treat these things as seperate issues. Please don't block a potential addition to all our professions because of the problems within cantina's and cities in general. We need to work together to fix these issues. Take the idea of making cantina's more attractive and allowing dancers and musicians this extra role hand in hand. They must happen together if BF in camps is to happen at all.

But give those dancers and musicians who haveworked for their master status the option of playing this extra role. It won't force you into combat-support, it'll give you a chance to go out and do that occasionally if you wish. I know my girlfiend would like to offer that service occasionally, but she still wants to do the club rounds and she still spends lots of time in the cantina. And I believe many players would do the same. Make it rare, make it hard, and it won't have a huge impact on the playerbase as a whole.

I've probably said enough. But please, Sinda and every other dancer and musician out there, think about this in the spirit it's meant. I believe it would benefit all of us in the long run.

Many thanks.

DK.

End.

Hopefully I haven't stepped on any toes or said anything out of line. Your feed back on this post is appreciated.

Again, many thanks.

DK

Make it rare, make it hard, and it won't have a huge impact on the playerbase as a whole.

---

How about introducing a master ranger camp in which master entertainers can perform like in a cantina ? That would be rare, that would probably require more than one player and it would make sense.

I agree with most of your post. I would love to have a crafted module for my camp that could heal BF. I would even be happy with allowing an Entertainer to heal BF in the HTFB camp. I'd prefer if any Entertainer could heal BF, though.

Here's a couple issues: First, I haven't used a HTFB since I became a Master Ranger. I go out in hunting parties a lot, and with a decent doc, you'll almost never need to heal mind wounds and BF before heading back to civilization. The only use we have for camps is to call pets.

What's worse is that having camps that heal BF would inspire people to 1) come on hunts with massive BF, and 2) not clone or forget to clone. I have no desire to sit in a camp (so it doesn't disband) while one person heals one other person, and the rest of my party is out killin'. Unless/until they make HTFBs permanent, so I don't need to sit there, my camp is more a liability to me than a help to others.

I can think of one time where we actually stopped hunting to heal some Mantigrue disease wounds that 3 of us recieved. Other than that, people who were READY when we began hunting had no need for extended camping.

Also, my guild has one high-level Entertainer, and she came on one hunt with us. Other than that, I've never had anyone but a low-level Entertainer with us. If a person is a Combat/Entertainer, then they'd be great for hunting trips and get some use out of it. If only a Master Entertainer can heal BF in a camp, well, how often will a group actually have a Master Entertainer available, and one that wants in on combat? I guess what I'm saying is that it'd be more useful if BF could be healed by a mid-level Entertainer; maybe much more slowly than in a cantina. This would make entertainers more sought after for the hunt (as soon as I don't need to babysit my camp.) They'd actually be making money from any missions as well, instead of needing to beg for tips. A doctor/entertainer combo would be like gold for any hunting excursion.

The problem we have is that there is some very strong opposition from the entertainer community on what effect this would have on cantina's and cities in general. I've not really put forward anything that I haven't already seen discussed on these boards, except to make it harder to include BF than has been suggested.

Although I understand that there would be a need to make theHTFBsemi-permanent for this to become a truly useful prospect, I also strongly believe that we need to keep the entertainer community in mind when we talk about how to implement it. The majority are extremely worried that giving our camps the ability to heal BF would remove any need for people to visit cantina's, or even cities, altogether. This is what my post tries to address.

It's about giving us, musicians and dancers an extra ability without removing anything from those professions and without adding to the problems those people currently face concerning cantina's. My suggestions simply try to find a balance that would be required should we ever see our hopes that BF would be healable in camps come to light at all.

Thanks for the input. Keep it coming!

DK

Also, Nvoigt, this is exactly what I believe should be the case in order to keep it rare and minimize the effect it would have on the aforementioned entertainer's. It should be a master ranger camp, modular in structure and should require masters dancers or musicians (possibly both) before it would be effective.

We'll need their support if we'll ever be able to push this through, I'm sure.

DK

Hmm, what's more relaxing, a camp out in the desert with the Tatooine moons turning the landscape and everything in it light blue, or a dark cantina filled with pets, lag, duels, melee fights, people spamming their wares, faction battles, TEF revengers poisoning people? Yeah, I live in AH.

Cantinas freaking suck and if I had a dancer or musician who'd come out and heal and adventure I'd be all about it.

-- YP

I personally think being able to heal BF in camps is a great idea. Give it to master rangers only (there are few enough out there), and make it so you have to have a certain level of dancer/musician (maybe not master, but wound healing III or some such). I don't think it would take away from the cantinas, and this is why.

If I am on a hunt with an entertainer, when we head back to town we usually have a healing session in the nearest cantina. On planets like Dath, there isn't exactly a large amount of entertainers there already, so the one in the group just helps out. I think that this change would help professions like dancers and musicians to come on the occasional hunt. Sure, maybe they will just be a support roll, but it's still a chance to see some of the galaxy. If camps didn't disband on, then it would be even better, because people could pull out and recieve some healing in camp (I also think there should be some sort of general regen bonus for watching dancers and musicians if you're not in combat). That way the entertainer could stay out of harms way, more or less, and contribute to the group at the same time.

Anyway, I'm sure that many people don't agree with me. Just my 2c

I strongly see the point that camp ability to heal BF needs to be limited to sustain the city/cantina life. However, making it so that only master dancers/musicians can heal BF in a camp essentially defeats allowing this skill at all. There are few of these masters out there. I would assume that of the ones that exist, few want to trek around with a hunting party and be our healing entertainers when we need it. Many hunting parties are kill focused and not very social. Most entertainers seem to like the social aspect of the game.

I think that it would be good to put the BF healing skill at a higher level of entertainer. Perhaps entertainment Healing IV. That would at least not allow people to drop 15 skill points to get novice and thus be able to heal a group in the wild. I, personally, have no desire to drop the 29 skill pts it takes to get entertainment IV. Thus, I feel that it would encourage real, serious, entertainers to come along on missions, but not limit it to the people that drop 106 skill pts on making master musician or dancer.

Also, the social aspect of cantinas is, to me, a joke. The majority of people in cantinas seem to be entertainers anyway. They hang out there and socialize together. I, a master CH and dabbling ranger, head to the cantina only when the BF becomes too much. Once I get to the cantina, I usually afk and use the restroom, eat, etc. I go there for the sole purpose of healing. I might be wrong, but I assume that tehre are lots of people out there that do this. If I want to be social, I will go the cantina and talk. Period. But, if I want to heal BF, I just go, heal, and get out. Plus, I agree with the post that complained about cantina lag, pets, fights, spam, etc. It is hard to see or do anything in the cantina.

Plus, this is an RPG. In RL, people have fun or entertain themselves in many places besides bars.

Final point, allowing BF to be healed in camps make entertainers desirable in hunting missions. Please entertainers, take no offense to this, I don't mean this in a bad way. Right now, there is little incentive to bring people who have sank 106 skill pts into entertaining on a hunting trip. Chances are these people have little combat skills and add little to a hunting group. allowing them to heal BF would make them contribute valuable skills to an expedition.

Oh, this is off the point, but on the same line. Please kill the AFK entertainers. I mean, come on. This is a completely lame cop out to gaining skill pts.

One more suggestion, for the benefit of musicians and those like mysefl being entertained by them. Please give us a /tipgroup command. This would ensure that all entertainers in the group get tipped, and it would decrease the annoying process of tipping 15 members of an entertainer group.

Miyamoto, Kettemoor server

Master CH, Ranger 1030, Novice Medic 0000, 2handed sword 0022

Again, I think one of the reasons many entertainers are so against the idea of BF in camps is because cantina's are exactly as you describe.

Maybe having to be a master dancer/musician is a bit of a high requirement, but I strongly believe it would have to be kept out of the Entertainer profession to appease those musicaians/dancerswho are against it (and from what I can tell, that's the majority of them). I do still think it should be a rare occurence, something to advertise, if you will - and a reason to again collect up a large hunting party for the more dangerous jaunts.

AFK'ing needs to go, I think 90% of the playerbase agrees with that. I'll say no more about it because this isn't the forum to be talking about it on (although I'll point briefly at the "AFK Macro-camp post not so far away!).

Cantina's are a joke and, for the most part, a lag-fest.Most agree with that too and it does need to be solved. ButI don't believe that giving tier IV entertainers (or even master entertainers) the ability to heal BF in camps is fair. It needs to be an Elite profession abilityto stay viable in my opinion.

Just my thoughts.

DK

Just out of curiosity, why do you think it is unfair to put level IV entertainers or master entertainers in the category of people who shouldbe able to heal BF in camps? I don't reallly know too many people that stop at this level. Most of the people who have this skill go on to higher level entertainer professions.

By limiting the ability to heal BF to only high, high level entertainers you are telling all the not so high entertainers, tough luck. Dance in the cantina while the high levels get to be useful on missions. This doesn't make much sense to me. I am all for having BF heal be very slow in camps or having only master rangers be able to construct high level camps. I just think that the entertainer community needs to suck it up a bit and accept a possible change to their profession. I mean, every other profession has undergone serious changes or nerfs. I am a master ch, trust me, I have plenty to complain about. They really nerfed my prof up. But, I dealt with it. Read the license. They reserve the right to change the game.

I don't think this would minimalize the importance of entertainers atall. Few people are going to drop skill pts to get entertainer skills just to heal in camps. Rather, hunters will want entertainers to travel with them.

A final point, people are only going to drop camps and allow BF healing if something serious goes wrong. For the most part, people will still prefer to hit the cantina when they are in town and have down time.

Also, analogize this to the medical profession. You don't hear doctors complaining that wounds can be healed outside of the medical facility. Of course you should be able to heal them in a camp or your house. It only makes sense. as I state before, this is a RPG. In real life, entertainment occurs in multiple locations. Not just a lag fest annoying cantina. So, if entertainers complain, let them. Everyone else has suffered from nerfs and I see no reason why they should be exempt.

I've mentioned this in a couple other posts and briefly explain it here:

Camps have great potential (aka, are currently useless)

1 - set up your group and go hunting in the same general direction for missions or whatever.

2 - erect a small generic house near your hunting grounds (it heals BF and some folks carry crafting stations) - everyone I hunt with can heal far more than my HTFB can ever regen in the same time and time is money. Every medical person has a droid anyway so the camp is moot.

3 - as folks come and go from the group, use the house as a small rendevous point - entertainers and docs can probably register there and get more business from the local hunting area than they would in town (depending on where you hunt of course)

4 - large multi-day hunts can have everyone staging in the house and logging in and out there

5 - when you are done, just be sure to have 3K in the maintenance and redeed it

6 - make a few crates of basic camp kits (the novice scout one) and use them to call pets as needed .. also for those areas where placing a house is too difficult or impossible.

You do not need to be a ranger to have the best camp in the game .. a small generic house (or whatever you prefer). If you do the financial math, you'll find that the house is far less expensive and gives far great benefits right now.

Being a ranger starts at the keyboard. Using the tools you have to get nearly anything done. I have been a master ranger for a very long time here and although I do not use my high-end camps, my groups love my ingenuity .... think like a ranger and you will be a good one.

Hawk, your idea's on the modular camp structure are great. Limiting to one module at atime may be too little in my opinion, but certainly I'd never want to see more than two or three.

However, I must disagree with your take on the entertainers. We are playing a class interdependant game and I do believe that we need to take other classes into consideration when we think about these things. I'm not saying you don't, but as I mentioned my girlfriend is a master dancer, she danced her way there (not afk'd) and despite what the story of the average cantina may tell you (full of afk'ers) there are many more like her. I know, because she meets and talks with them. It doesn't mean she doesn't want to hunt too...

We shouldn't be asking for anything that will have a negative impact on another class, regardless of previous (and future) nerfs. I'm just trying to look at the bigger picture, my situation allows me a good view of both sides of the argument.

There is an afk epidemic sweeping all the galaxies, and it's not just entertainers. It affects crafters, surveyors and even scouts and rangers (I'll point again at the AFK-camp macro question on these very boards). If I were asked, I'd say it's because of the power of the macro in SWG.Rarely (if ever) in an MMO have the players been giving such a powerful tool which so easily enables unattended play. It's my opinion that the developers underestimated the resourcefulness of the players, as most developers always do. Correct me if I'm wrong,please.

I also believe that this epidemic will be dealt with by the developers once the more serious issues have been addressed.

But as I said, this isn't the board for such a discussion.

I'll stick by my view that the ability to heal BF in camps (if ever granted) should be restricted to the elite professions at best - at whatever level. I do, however, agree that the semi-permanent camp (i.e. not destroyed when a ranger enters combat) is also a must to make the high level camps worthwhile.

Why elite professions? For exactly the reason that some have described. It shouldn't be something that anyone who drops a few points into entertainer can achieve, it should be something for those that have committed fully to their class. Another unique aspect that the 'elite profession' status brings. Isn't that what most of us are asking for?The basic professions serve their purpose. They allow people to holdskills in a number of areasbefore choosing to specialise in their given area. They allow all of us some basic knowledge outside of our chosen specialisations. The elite professions are the one's that need fleshing out, all of them.

Hope you understand.

Thanks.

DK.

I wanted to start another thread earlier today concerning Ranger camps, but I suppose I'll just add my views here instead of clogging up the board further.

Personally, I think the idea of BF is really good. It adds depth to the combat system, and increases the interdependancy all the combat professions have on entertainers. It's a good thing (tm). However, I agree that Ranger camps are pretty much pointless right now, and adding some sort of BF feature is a viable option that would improve things. So how about.. (note: these ideas have been mentioned previously, I'm sure.)

1) High end Ranger camps (ie. the camp granted in Frontiering IV or anything added above) will be able to have BF healed in them. Note this does not mean they automatically heal BF themselves, but rather act like a cantina and will allow entertainers to heal BF.I also think that only the elite entertainers (ie. dancers / musicians) should be able ot heal BF in player made camps. If you restrict it to the higher level camps, then your not going to seriously harm cantinas. Also, this would encourage entertainers to venture out from the cities and get mixed up in some trouble

2) I see the higher level camps as being more fortifications than anything else.Sure, the camps given as a scout are tents and a campfire, but once your a ranger they really look more like field outposts etc etc. Lets give them some sort of tactical benefits then? They are supposed to 'repel' creatures as it is, but either this is broken, or it's really not going to be that effective anyways. How about giving some sort of buffs to the players who spend time in camps before going out and fighting. The longer they spend in camp, the longer / stronger the buffs last. The higher the ranger camp, the higher the buffs / longer they last. I look at the camps and they look like command centers.. or mobile hospitals. I think giving the players a benefit for 'regrouping' and whatnot I think is a good idea (tm).

3) I'm sort of rushing this, I cant come up with some great ideas. But can we give the camps somewhat more permanency ? (cant spell) ... what I mean by this is, can the master ranger set it up as a 'home base' sort of thing, and run the hunt from the camp? Perhaps this could be acheived by adding somethign simuliar to a mission terminal. (I'm not bothering to think of what this would do to game balance, it's most likely a bad idea but do you get what i mean?) .. as I see it, the camps need a reason to exist. Right now, if I'm out with a group and we lose a member, we wait for him. And I think 'well I may as well knock a camp down'. I think in an ideal situation, everyone should be telling me 'it is time for us to camp now, whip one out'.

I might start a thread a little later with ideas on the rangers other skills.. but for the moment, can anyone else add more ideas ?