Ranger Archive
Thread: The State of Rangers Report -- 09/06/2003
Let me preface this write-up by saying that I am extremely disappointed at SOE's implementation of the new Ranger abilities and lack of attention to detail.
Mask Scent
While this isn't really a Ranger ability, it is inherited from our prerequisit profession and effects us none-the-less. Mask Scent has been drastically overhauledthree times since release. Of these three times, it has never worked without glaring problems/bugs. The current "state" of Mask Scent is such that it is very easily broken by very weak and non-agressivecreatures -- and therefore ineffective, unreliable,and practically useless. Additionally, the duration of Mask Scent has been reduced from 25 minutes to 10 minutes.
Mask Scent needs to be restored to the effectiveness that it was prior to the 09/04/2003 patch.
Conceal
In theory, conceal was to be a great addition to the Ranger's skills. However, it is not working at the levelin whichit was portrayed. To quote the correspondant feedback on this issue: "[it will be] a lot more potent: it lasts longer (up to 25 minutes for a Master Ranger) and it rarely breaks". Through my own testing of conceal, I find it to be no more powerful than the current version of Mask Scent and breaks just as frequently.
Conceal does not appear to work against non-creature NPCs. From what I have read, I see no indication that this skill should work against them -- so I can't say that it is broken in this area.
A large portion of the community is complaining of the fact that the resource-cost of creating camoflauge kits is to high. This is mainly attributed to the fact that these kits require a resouce unobtainable by innate Ranger/Scout skills. It must either be purchased from other players are acquired by means of surveying (Artisan) or through the use of Flora Farm. My personal opinion on the matter is that acquiring these resources is not a challenging task and is completely acceptable.
Harvesting
It is an undebatable fact that harvest amounts for creatures has been reduced globally. This came as quite a surprise to the Scout/Ranger community as it was not mentioned in the patch notes or ever communicated by the development team.
A large portion of the community feels that this was intentional to offset the new feature that allows multiple harvests per creature while grouping -- I agree. I think thatthe developers have overestimated the impact that the additional resources from group harvesting will bring to the economy. In my personal experience, there is, and always has been, and huge shortage of Scout/Ranger harvested resources on the market. With the latest changes, we have been "double whammied" on the issue. Previously, Rangers had little incentive to group when they were in need of resources. This change has only made the situationworse as the amount of resources when grouping has been cut by nearly 70% compared to soloing pre-patch (50% global reduction with a 40% reduction while grouped).
The base-amount of harvested resources needs to be restored to what it was pre-patch. Many Scouts and Rangers rely on harvested resources as theirprimary source of revenue and you have just taken that from them.
Camps
We're still waiting on the Frontiering line to be overhauled but many Rangers are upset at the increase in the cost in resources of camps. My personal opinion is that they are easier to craft now since the primary ingredients are mostly obtainablevia harvesting.
Tracking
Many Rangers were very excited when the Tracking skill was first announced. The implementation of tracking is poor, to say the least. Tracking display many objects in the game world that do not belong in the category selected. For example: vendors, signs, objects on the ground dropped by other players, etc. Additionally, the maximum range on Tracking for a Master Ranger is a mere 500 meters. A range this short provides no real benefit given that the player must stand still for fifteen seconds. Five-hundred meters is not much further than double visible range.
In order to be beneficial and useful, Tracking needs to have its maximum range increased to at least 1000m for Master Ranger. Additionally, some sort of "update" or "status" on what you're tracking would go a long way to making the skill more useful.
Trapping
Still needs a major overhaul.
I think these are the biggest issues concerning Rangers right now and they need to be addressed quickly. Overall, the community has been very patient but the latest patch did nothing to benefit the profession. As Yoda might say, "Now ... matters are worse."
On a side note, it is extremely disappointing and frustrating that these changes were ever promoted to the live environment in their current condition. As a software engineer myself, it looks like these changes were never tested beyond the developer(s) themselves. I find it hard to believe that these major problems could have ever slipped past an internal quality assurance department/process. Relying on the community as your primary testing/quality assurance team on Test Center is unprofessional. Many players feel that because they are paying customers, they should feel pressured to "test" the game -- they want a quality, finely tuned, and relatively problem-free, polished game.
Regards.
Mask Scent
While this isn't really a Ranger ability, it is inherited from our prerequisit profession and effects us none-the-less. Mask Scent has been drastically overhauledthree times since release. Of these three times, it has never worked without glaring problems/bugs. The current "state" of Mask Scent is such that it is very easily broken by very weak and non-agressivecreatures -- and therefore ineffective, unreliable,and practically useless. Additionally, the duration of Mask Scent has been reduced from 25 minutes to 10 minutes.
Mask Scent needs to be restored to the effectiveness that it was prior to the 09/04/2003 patch.
The current state is actually working for some. The day of the patch I would have agreed with you however for two days now I've been running around Tatooine and succeeding against all manner of creatures high and low level. From Kreetle to Krayt it does work - even at a run. I've never had it break from a yellow creature. Duration seems longer than 10 min, but as I haven't timed it I'll surrender the point.
If it was restored you'd still have yellows aggro'ing you, and you'd get no XP for it (not a big deal for us, but Scouts can really need it).
Conceal
In theory, conceal was to be a great addition to the Ranger's skills. However, it is not working at the levelin whichit was portrayed. To quote the correspondant feedback on this issue: "[it will be] a lot more potent: it lasts longer (up to 25 minutes for a Master Ranger) and it rarely breaks". Through my own testing of conceal, I find it to be no more powerful than the current version of Mask Scent and breaks just as frequently.
Again I disagree. Conceal doesn't break against creatures - if they see through it it stays on. There are some question marks as after it supposedly wears off you still get messages saying you are concealed. The duration is quite short though, and it seems that since the skill is different, it is actually less effective than MaskScent for a low level Ranger.
Conceal does not appear to work against non-creature NPCs. From what I have read, I see no indication that this skill should work against them -- so I can't say that it is broken in this area.
Incorrect - I recieved XP for concealing myself from a Tusken Raider last night. It is tougher though.
A large portion of the community is complaining of the fact that the resource-cost of creating camoflauge kits is to high. This is mainly attributed to the fact that these kits require a resouce unobtainable by innate Ranger/Scout skills. It must either be purchased from other players are acquired by means of surveying (Artisan) or through the use of Flora Farm. My personal opinion on the matter is that acquiring these resources is not a challenging task and is completely acceptable.
Fully agree. It isn't that hard.
Harvesting
It is an undebatable fact that harvest amounts for creatures has been reduced globally. This came as quite a surprise to the Scout/Ranger community as it was not mentioned in the patch notes or ever communicated by the development team.
A large portion of the community feels that this was intentional to offset the new feature that allows multiple harvests per creature while grouping -- I agree. I think thatthe developers have overestimated the impact that the additional resources from group harvesting will bring to the economy. In my personal experience, there is, and always has been, and huge shortage of Scout/Ranger harvested resources on the market. With the latest changes, we have been "double whammied" on the issue. Previously, Rangers had little incentive to group when they were in need of resources. This change has only made the situationworse as the amount of resources when grouping has been cut by nearly 70% compared to soloing pre-patch (50% global reduction with a 40% reduction while grouped).
The base-amount of harvested resources needs to be restored to what it was pre-patch. Many Scouts and Rangers rely on harvested resources as theirprimary source of revenue and you have just taken that from them.
Very true. It seems that the 60% was applied globally and needs to be re-examined. Your "double-whammy" is very correct.
Camps
We're still waiting on the Frontiering line to be overhauled but many Rangers are upset at the increase in the cost in resources of camps. My personal opinion is that they are easier to craft now since the primary ingredients are mostly obtainablevia harvesting.
I'll refrain from comment as I have no Fronteering. The additional ways to get Survival XP was a nice addition though.
Tracking
Many Rangers were very excited when the Tracking skill was first announced. The implementation of tracking is poor, to say the least. Tracking display many objects in the game world that do not belong in the category selected. For example: vendors, signs, objects on the ground dropped by other players, etc. Additionally, the maximum range on Tracking for a Master Ranger is a mere 500 meters. A range this short provides no real benefit given that the player must stand still for fifteen seconds. Five-hundred meters is not much further than double visible range.
In order to be beneficial and useful, Tracking needs to have its maximum range increased to at least 1000m for Master Ranger. Additionally, some sort of "update" or "status" on what you're tracking would go a long way to making the skill more useful.
I have to agree. Tracking isn't working properly yet. At Wayfaring I the skill range is barely beyond visual range, and the "animal" listing picks up droids and other stuff. Additionally, I've been using it and had a spawn appear on top of me immediately after the results appear. A better implementation for this would be to pick off the spawn table for the region and give the Ranger a list of creatures that could appear in the area. This would then feed into the proposed Tracking system that allows the Ranger to choose a type of animal to track and find.
Trapping
Still needs a major overhaul.
The proposed changes are interesting - as such I'll reserve comment until they're implemented.
I think these are the biggest issues concerning Rangers right now and they need to be addressed quickly. Overall, the community has been very patient but the latest patch did nothing to benefit the profession. As Yoda might say, "Now ... matters are worse."
On a side note, it is extremely disappointing and frustrating that these changes were ever promoted to the live environment in their current condition. As a software engineer myself, it looks like these changes were never tested beyond the developer(s) themselves. I find it hard to believe that these major problems could have ever slipped past an internal quality assurance department/process. Relying on the community as your primary testing/quality assurance team on Test Center is unprofessional. Many players feel that because they are paying customers, they should feel pressured to "test" the game -- they want a quality, finely tuned, and relatively problem-free, polished game.
I suppose all I can say is that on my server with my character - I'm not seeing as many problems as you. As such, I think the patch was a step forward and gave some interesting new directions. It's not there yet - but I wouldn't characterise it as major problems.
SirCaleb,
While many of your thoughs here are well thought out, I disagree with some of them.
Let me preface this write-up by saying that I am extremely disappointed at SOE's implementation of the new Ranger abilities and lack of attention to detail.
Mask Scent
While this isn't really a Ranger ability, it is inherited from our prerequisit profession and effects us none-the-less. Mask Scent has been drastically overhauledthree times since release. Of these three times, it has never worked without glaring problems/bugs. The current "state" of Mask Scent is such that it is very easily broken by very weak and non-agressivecreatures -- and therefore ineffective, unreliable,and practically useless. Additionally, the duration of Mask Scent has been reduced from 25 minutes to 10 minutes.
This is not the experience of every Ranger and every Scout. I personally have not had as many problems with Maskscent as you appear to be having. Nor have many other Scouts and Rangers - check the other appropriate threads. Maskscent does what it was supposed to do - it makes you more survivable in the wild. It was never intended, nor should it be intended, to make you completely invisible or allow you to roam anywhere with no chance of being discovered. If it were to be that way, the /conceal feature would be worthless to us - and only slightly useful to others.
Mask Scent needs to be restored to the effectiveness that it was prior to the 09/04/2003 patch.
Absolutely not. Maskscent was bugged before the patch. We all know it was bugged before the patch. No one here can say with a straight face that Maskscent was operating as it was supposed to be operating. It was way too powerful, and the power level was vastly infavor of the high level Scouts and Rangers - we were invisible. This was nice for three weeks, but it was never the intention of the Devs for it to be this way.
Conceal
In theory, conceal was to be a great addition to the Ranger's skills. However, it is not working at the levelin whichit was portrayed. To quote the correspondant feedback on this issue: "[it will be] a lot more potent: it lasts longer (up to 25 minutes for a Master Ranger) and it rarely breaks". Through my own testing of conceal, I find it to be no more powerful than the current version of Mask Scent and breaks just as frequently.
This I will agree with. Conceal needs to be ratched up in terms of level of effectiveness for the Ranger using it - perhaps less for a concealed player (one the Ranger conceals).
A large portion of the community is complaining of the fact that the resource-cost of creating camoflauge kits is to high. This is mainly attributed to the fact that these kits require a resouce unobtainable by innate Ranger/Scout skills. It must either be purchased from other players are acquired by means of surveying (Artisan) or through the use of Flora Farm. My personal opinion on the matter is that acquiring these resources is not a challenging task and is completely acceptable.
Agreed.
Harvesting
It is an undebatable fact that harvest amounts for creatures has been reduced globally. This came as quite a surprise to the Scout/Ranger community as it was not mentioned in the patch notes or ever communicated by the development team.
This is also my largest complaint with the update. If this was done - it needed to be effectively communicated to us.
A large portion of the community feels that this was intentional to offset the new feature that allows multiple harvests per creature while grouping -- I agree. I think thatthe developers have overestimated the impact that the additional resources from group harvesting will bring to the economy. In my personal experience, there is, and always has been, and huge shortage of Scout/Ranger harvested resources on the market. With the latest changes, we have been "double whammied" on the issue. Previously, Rangers had little incentive to group when they were in need of resources. This change has only made the situationworse as the amount of resources when grouping has been cut by nearly 70% compared to soloing pre-patch (50% global reduction with a 40% reduction while grouped).
Sir, we cannot be sure what the longterm effects of this change can be yet. We've had two and a half months with no incentive to group. Now that there is a bonus to grouping, players will slowly begin to change their playstyles to include more grouping. We need to see what the long term effects of the new rules are here - it's only been two days.
The base-amount of harvested resources needs to be restored to what it was pre-patch. Many Scouts and Rangers rely on harvested resources as theirprimary source of revenue and you have just taken that from them.
It doesn't need to be removed immediately - we need to know if its intentional or a bug first. Second, the levels of hide/meat/bone in the game need to be monitored, and if the amounts actually DROP, they need to be increased. If they stay the same, or increase, then we'll know that the Devs were right about doing this. They were still wrong though, in not telling us (assuming its not a bug).
Camps
We're still waiting on the Frontiering line to be overhauled but many Rangers are upset at the increase in the cost in resources of camps. My personal opinion is that they are easier to craft now since the primary ingredients are mostly obtainablevia harvesting.
The increased costs of the camps is to be expected. The devs were extremely afraid about introducing the 60% rule because it had the potential to destroy the market for hide and bone. I know they were afraid, because we discussed it at length. The idea of increasing the costs of camp crafting was one that I had, so blame me for it.
Tracking
Many Rangers were very excited when the Tracking skill was first announced. The implementation of tracking is poor, to say the least. Tracking display many objects in the game world that do not belong in the category selected. For example: vendors, signs, objects on the ground dropped by other players, etc. Additionally, the maximum range on Tracking for a Master Ranger is a mere 500 meters. A range this short provides no real benefit given that the player must stand still for fifteen seconds. Five-hundred meters is not much further than double visible range.
Its not poor. It's better than nothing. 
It has issues right now - the display of non-creatures is the primary bug, and I am confident that it will be resolved when the Ranger dev gets back from vacation. And double visible range is pretty good.
In order to be beneficial and useful, Tracking needs to have its maximum range increased to at least 1000m for Master Ranger. Additionally, some sort of "update" or "status" on what you're tracking would go a long way to making the skill more useful.
We need to keep in mind that /areatrack is the LESSER of the two new skills. /track is going to be the more powerful version, and it is still in development. So we shouldn't expect /areatrack to be amazing - it was never meant to be amazing. It was an additional tool to help us in hunting. It is a success in that regards. When the /track skill comes out, we'll be able to find any animal or creature that we want to find. That will be fun.
Trapping
Still needs a major overhaul.
This is still in the works. Patience...
I think these are the biggest issues concerning Rangers right now and they need to be addressed quickly. Overall, the community has been very patient but the latest patch did nothing to benefit the profession. As Yoda might say, "Now ... matters are worse."
This is absolutely not true. Maskscent grants XP again. The camping increased XP is good. The fishing granting survival is good. The changes to examine are good. The /areatrack skill is good (it, at the very least, is better than nothing). The /conceal skill is a good start (Again, it at the very least is better than nothing). I don't know how you, or anyone else, can say that we were better off a week ago, than we are right now.
On a side note, it is extremely disappointing and frustrating that these changes were ever promoted to the live environment in their current condition. As a software engineer myself, it looks like these changes were never tested beyond the developer(s) themselves. I find it hard to believe that these major problems could have ever slipped past an internal quality assurance department/process. Relying on the community as your primary testing/quality assurance team on Test Center is unprofessional. Many players feel that because they are paying customers, they should feel pressured to "test" the game -- they want a quality, finely tuned, and relatively problem-free, polished game.
SirCaleb, they really don't have anyone to do high level testing like this. They just don't. They have their internal Devs, and they have the kind folks on Test Center, but they don't have ten thousand Rangers testing everything like we do on the live servers. They are never going to be able to catch all of the bugs, no matter how long they test on Test Center while the population is so low. I know that it is a priority for them to make it easier for at least us Correspondents to go test, but that's it. When you are making as many changes as quickly as they made these, you have to expect things to slip past. A two week turnaround on anything as complex as SWG is pretty darn good, in my opinion.
I am getting really sick and tired of hearing the "we're paying blah blah blah". Yes, we're paying. We're paying to play. But its not an exorbitant sum, and there are relatively few features that are broken right now- and those are the ones we're hitting. You need to look at things from the perspective that there are a million different things in the game right now, and less than one hundred are broken. That's pretty good.
Guys, I know we were all waiting with baited breath for this patch, and I'd be a liar if I said I was thrilled. But I'm not going to pessimistic either. And you should be, either.
We got a lot of things that we wanted in this patch, and many of them do work. Let's take solace in that fact and wait for the problems to be resolved. One thing that we can be sure of is that this isn't the last patch, and this isn't the last fix. There will be thousands more of those to come, and as the game matures, they will get better.
B
Just my little observation on /conceal against NPC's, and at the time this afternoon, I was only a 1/0/1/0 Ranger.
I have -5K Valarian faction. These guys run from all over to take me out. As soon as I enter 64m they jump at me. Today, while exploring the Eastern Dune Sea, I came upon a group of Valarians; some Scouts, some Brawlers, some Yellows, some Reds. I walked right up between two of the Yellows and stood there with no problems. It appeared as if they never saw me and I was within 5m of both. Now when I got in range of a Red, the story changes. I was instantly attacked by him. This I don't think is a bug. I believe that if the NPC is a Red then they are more observant and alert, and rightfully so. If you are the Killer in a group you should be the one that notices everything, otherwise you are no better than a lower level thug.
As far as, the others, I have no problems. The /areatrack skill is useful to me when doing Explorer Destroy missions. I have been able to complete these missions in a more expediate manner. Instead of a few days of play I can handle a Destroy mission in a few hours. I no longer have to sit and 'camp' a spawn point (something I do not like to do at all). I now can hunt more realistically and find other locations where these animals reside, instead of just wondering around the planet.
I say this is a good patch for Rangers, and once our Dev gets back from his much deserved vacation, we will see what happens.
See you all in game,
I am a Master Ranger and I too have -5000 Valarian Faction, but why can I not get within 70m of Yellow Valarians, let alone Red Valarians.
Not once, in all of my testing have I need able to successfully conceal against Any Valarians.
It is starting to become appearent to me that some line of code has inadvertantly inverted the Ranger conceal bonus, as it appears that Novices are using the skill at Master level and vice versa.
If more ppl participate on TC that provide feedback, maybe next patch will result in better implementations of skills and features.
Personally, I don't believe that /conceal is worth the time and effort, because I can survive far easier by not using the thing. But, if the game wasn't fun we wouldn't continue playing. And, I am sure that Rangers on all servers appreciate the efforts that their Dev and correspondents put into making this a great profession.
I didn't think that Delta was at all angry in his response; he sounded more exasperated at what is going on.
I, too, am a software developer (for the largest physicalcommodity futuresexchange in the world) and I've got to say that for all the testing we do within development, in our huge QA, Usability, Education, BusinessAnalyst,and Operations groups, there is nothing like having thousands of peopleusers bang out on your application fora two hour period. In those two hours, we learn more about the effectiveness of our software than the over six month project lifecycle. Users know the business, understand trends in an intuitive way that many of my experienced colleages do not understand. We throw darts at the bullseye and we get close, but it's only with user exposure that we can improve the application to hit the mark.
There is a huge reluctance to participate on test center and understandably so. I'd much rather spend my money (and time is money, too)playing the production game. Even if it is a little buggy, it is generally less so than development/test servers.
Most of the views are valid. The usefulness of the new abilities and adjustments given to Rangers is relative depending on your playing style. I have found most very useful. I've already expressed numerous times the things that I want to get adjusted on numerous threads here and I trust in Delta to push the developers hard to ensure our gameplay is balanced and enjoyable.
Osho,
I'm not angry. You guys wouldn't like me when I'm angry.
But Iko is right - I am getting a bit exasperated. All I heard for months before this patch was how annoying it was that multiple scouts can't harvest the same creature, and now we can and no one wants it.
All I heard before the patch was how maskscent sucks and never grants XP, and now all we hear is that maskscent sucks because it actually breaks now.
I know you can't please all of the people all of the time but sheesh. Give the Devs a break.
And I know that for some the amount of money we pay is a lot - but we are paying for much more than just a working Maskscent or higher harvests. There are tons of things that are right with the game, and you also pay for that. No one asks anyone to post to these boards - to do so means that you care enough to share your opinions and ideas, which means you are basically a tester anyway.
B
DeltaXi65 wrote:
All I heard for months before this patch was how annoying it was that multiple scouts can't harvest the same creature, and now we can and no one wants it.
As far as I can tell with my testing, the formula for "group" harvest compared to previously is as follows:
(Previous Base Amount * .5) * .6 = Group Harvest Per Person Amount
If you put that into perspective, Crazed Durni harvested solo pre-patch yielded 24 units of wooly hide. Now:
Solo: 12
Grouped: 7
I'm sorry but that is worse than just rotating lootsin the old stylewhen you're grouped with a friend.
SirCaleb,
But that's not the point - the point was that it was so difficult to get a good group leader and good groups that would actually rotate the harvest that most of us as Scouts got fed up and just quit grouping all together.
Go to the Scout forums and look at some of the postings from the earlier period of the game. This was one of the biggest gripes of the Scouting community (back when all of us Master Rangers were only Scouts) - it was #3 on my original top 5 list.
Plus, you're lumping in the issue of the possible stealth nerf to all harvesting. When you put it that way, then of course this looks work.
But think of it this way.
Now: Durni solo 14, Durni group 7 (times the number of scouts in the group- up to twenty).
So, potentially, each Crazed Durni a group kills could introduce 140 hides into the economy.
See why this is better now? If you want to get hide and bone quickly again, take a group of friends out and have them harvest everything as well, and then give you the hides. Voila - ten times as fast as the old way.
B
The survival xp is a terrific enhancement. This was the one area that took the longest to advance and I didn't have the patience to twiddle my thumbs in camps for hours on end when my own playing time is limited. Earning xp for fishing and enhanced camping xp makes the progression in this skill much more realistic.
However, I am irritated with the number of droids and pets that display when using the tracking feature. Creatures that you may have just killed also display and can be misleading.
I'm sorry Brisc but that line of thinking doesn't wash, at least not in my case. I was in a group last night that didn't want to focus on any one particular mob after we were done with the squill cave. Only one scout was willing to give me her harvests because she's a friend of mine. The restwanted to, and deserved to, keep theirs. In the time we spent hunting I ended up with a paltry amount of harvests. And they were guildmates of mine who need hides for their professions.
this does NOT force grouping, it forces solo'ing.
I posted prior to the update that this was going to cause problems. This was poorly planned and executed. I give the devs lots of breaks, but this one was too much. They have to rethink it through and come up with a better solution and quickly.
I also don't like the idea of half the Bounty Hunters now going for tracking 4 and further reducing the need for my services.