Ranger Archive
Thread: Lets talk about Stealth
Rangers have been talking about stealth since launch. Many of us feel stealth is a vital part of the Ranger profession and the ablities granted in the Wayfaring tree are subpar. In the past year we've come up with a lot of new ideas and had some good discussions. The purpose of this thread is bring up those ideas as well as create new ones, to have a community discussion and hash out our thoughts, so that we can hopefully come up with a strong proposal for our future revamp.
I'll start by summarizing some of the previous ideas into categories so they're easier to identify. ( Please feel add to this if you want. )
- True Stealth - Actually making Rangers somehow inivisible to other players. This is best described in Fred's Stealth Proposal . The basic idea is when the Ranger uses his stealth ability he is completely inivisible, nothing on the radar, nothing even in your normal vision. The caveat of this idea is that it may be All or nothing. As Fred explains, there is probably no way to just take us off the radar or change or our dot color etc. We have to completely cut off the data sent to other players or they'll be able to find ways of cheating.This is perhaps the most powerful form of stealth a Ranger could have. We'd be able to spy on people, gather intel and perform deadly ambush attacks. With that in mind, its crucial that we think of solid ways to balance it.
- Simulated Stealh - Simulating stealth through negative to hit mods or increased defenses. The Original Outdoorsman proposes a form of stealth through negative to hit mods. The idea is that, while we would still be visible to other players, our stealth would be simulated by their inablity to hit us. It's a fairly simple idea that would give Rangers an edge in combat, but it wouldn't allow for any kind of spying or real surprise attacks.
- Other - Search the boards and you'll find countless other ideas, but in general I think most of them fall in one of the two categories. If you have an idea that you think is different from what I've already mentioned please add it.
Ok, so here's what we need to do, discuss the different ideas and come up with a simple yet elegant stealth proposal. There are some important things to consider any stealth idea.
What are the pros and cons?
- How strong will this make Rangers?
- Does the idea give all of the abilities Rangers want in a stealth skill?
How will it be implement in game?
- At what box will this ability be granted?
- Will Rangers need resources for this ability?
How it will be balanced?
- How will other players detect us? Would it be skill based, Item based, both or something else?
- Will other Rangers be able detect us? Or maybe other classes might have a spefic skill (Like SL) ?
- Will there be some limitation on how often or when we can use it?
- Will Rangers be limited in how they can move while using the ability?
Message Edited by Scarin on 11-10-2004 09:23 PM
Nemo0 wrote:
True Stealth is the best option. It is something unique (i.e. not just a defense mod), useful (assuming they don't nerf us too much while stealthed--i.e. prone and stationary only), and fun.
Agree! Agree! Agree!
Balance:
- Detection should probably be skill based. I would prefer an active skill (i.e. you have to /areatrack to notice the Ranger) because a passive ability will probably lead to a kreetle effect.
- I would say that identifying the presence of a concealed Ranger should not cost resources but actually ending the hidden state probably should (maybe use an EMP grenade to disrupt the invisibility field generator?).
- Detection should definately be possible by other Rangers (they are the ones who would really know what to look for). It might also be worth having other professions with an ability to detect the Ranger just for counterbalancing but they probably should be professions with a scout prereq.
I think it should be a passive detection. It can be mod based, using a DetectStealth mod, that would be a roll out of a hundred to check for detection. All players get a +5 mod. Novice Scout gets +5 and Master Scout gets +5. Novice CH, BE, BH and SL get +2. Novice Ranger gets +10 and Master Ranger gets +20. Checks would be done at 30m and at 10m (possibly with a bonus to check). CAs and AAs could be made with mod bonuses, as well.
If a detection is made, the Detection skill could be rolled against the Stealth skill to determine the outcome. Possible outcomes could include: "You have heard a sound to the (direction)," but the ranger would stay hidden, or Stealth is disabled for a minimum amount of time.
Piroa wrote:
Nemo0 wrote:
True Stealth is the best option. It is something unique (i.e. not just a defense mod), useful (assuming they don't nerf us too much while stealthed--i.e. prone and stationary only), and fun.
Agree! Agree! Agree!
Balance:
- Detection should probably be skill based. I would prefer an active skill (i.e. you have to /areatrack to notice the Ranger) because a passive ability will probably lead to a kreetle effect.
- I would say that identifying the presence of a concealed Ranger should not cost resources but actually ending the hidden state probably should (maybe use an EMP grenade to disrupt the invisibility field generator?).
- Detection should definately be possible by other Rangers (they are the ones who would really know what to look for). It might also be worth having other professions with an ability to detect the Ranger just for counterbalancing but they probably should be professions with a scout prereq.
I think it should be a passive detection. It can be mod based, using a DetectStealth mod, that would be a roll out of a hundred to check for detection. All players get a +5 mod. Novice Scout gets +5 and Master Scout gets +5. Novice CH, BE, BH and SL get +2. Novice Ranger gets +10 and Master Ranger gets +20. Checks would be done at 30m and at 10m (possibly with a bonus to check). CAs and AAs could be made with mod bonuses, as well.
If a detection is made, the Detection skill could be rolled against the Stealth skill to determine the outcome. Possible outcomes could include: "You have heard a sound to the (direction)," but the ranger would stay hidden, or Stealth is disabled for a minimum amount of time.
Passive detection would be interesting but it almost negates the use of the skill against any large group. If you try and sneak in on 20 players, you will be detected (a 5% chance of detection by one player would mean a 64% chance of detection by 20 players every skill check). Also, how does one handle it if you don't want to actually detect the Ranger (i.e. if he is a friend who is meant to be spying on what you are seeing)? The messages help a little (you can just ignore him if you geta message)but what if you accidentally reveal someone who you didn't want to reveal? Active detection means that you will only reveal someone if you try and reveal him.
Maybe we can give the skill to everyone with the skill mods spread out as suggested above? So everyone can try and detect people but the Scout professions are the only ones with a good chance of doing so? And make it so that you can only check when dismounted (i.e. so you might be able to avoid an ambush but only if you are being careful and you take your time while travelling--if you rush, you won't notice anything). And still have the messages as above? So you might find out that there is a Ranger nearby but you might have trouble actually finding him/her.
- We can make Ranger a very useful information gathering profession.
- Rangers would have a skill that is extremely useful.
- The skill would be unique to the profession.
- Hard to balance.
- Possible exploits if improperly implemented.
- Potential griefing if made too powerful.
- Potentially useless if made too limited.
- Possible limited stealth at some level of wayfaring (maybe stationary stealth at wayfaring 2 and fully mobile but non-combat stealth at wayfaring 4?).
- Full combat stealth, if not deemed overpowering or griefable,probably needs to go at Master.
- I'd rather not see resource use (just because resource collection and such is a pain) but it probably should be on par with a weapon of some sort (maybe with an invisibility belt crafted by an artisan? Decays when the skill is activated?).
Balance:
- Detection should probably be skill based. I would prefer an active skill (i.e. you have to /areatrack to notice the Ranger) because a passive ability will probably lead to a kreetle effect.
- I would say that identifying the presence of a concealed Ranger should not cost resources but actually ending the hidden state probably should (maybe use an EMP grenade to disrupt the invisibility field generator?).
- Detection should definately be possible by other Rangers (they are the ones who would really know what to look for). It might also be worth having other professions with an ability to detect the Ranger just for counterbalancing but they probably should be professions with a scout prereq.
- Limitations on the skill probably need to be severe. Movement rate can't really be penalized while still keeping the skill useful (possibly at a lower level but Master level should be full speed). Speeders and mounts probably shouldn't be allowed (although a skill like /pathfind would be greatly appreciated to make things go a bit faster). To make combat balancing easy, you would probably want to prevent hiding for 30 seconds after combat and to require hiding to end 15 seconds before combat (although this does make the sniper role almost impossible). If combat is allowed directly out of hiding, it needs to be Master Ranger only to limit the griefing potential (I don't know how well combat will work out of concealment--the potential griefing is just huge). The skill should probably be willfully entered and exited (unless detected).
For simulated stealth, I don't really think we should be focusing too much on this. While a defense mod would be nice, it just isn't very special. It would almost be like buffs compare with chef food--you can get defensive chef food or you can get a camo buff from a Ranger. It wouldn't be a bad skill to have but I'd rather just see natural defenses instead.
